The Field of Merrilor is gonna be off 'da hook!!!!!

[Terez]

The evidence is far from 'weak'. SH is not a better choice because of the evidence I gave, which you apparently have a difficult time comprehending.

Ignoring the fact that this was kind'a what I asked you not to do (but I will lock this thread if this continues)

I didn't make it that far.

 

I'm having a similarly hard time myself. We have:

(a) Sorilea's championing the cause of fighting WO's. As you yourself admit, this might well have been the work of a Light-sider, for all that Amys appears to have a hard time with it (and BTW, I'm not completely convinced that this is at the core of their LoC disagreement).

Why are you not convinced that it's the core of their disagreement, when all the evidence points in that direction, including the earlier bit from Cairhien? Sure, there's room to believe otherwise...but there is also room to believe that the moon expedition was faked. As for it possibly being the work of a Lightsider...well, of course that's a possibility. If it wasn't, then we would all know that Sorilea is a Darkfriend. The reason I brought it up in the first place is because someone asked what Sorilea was doing to further the Shadow's cause, and this is one of the first things she does that could easily fit the bill, and there are a great deal of clues dropped, with everything shrouded in confusion. You have to figure out what the hell Sorilea and Amys were arguing about before you can contemplate why they were arguing about it in the first place.

 

You mention possible advantages to the Dark, but I think there is a clear advantage to the Light here, as well. It's a whole society which trains its channelers, and they're bound to be overwhelmly Light-siders (there are Aiel DF's, but I think every indication we have shows that ji'a'toh discourages this sort of behavior).

That is what you are supposed to think. But the truth is that ji'e'toh discourages Wise Ones being involved in battle for very specific reasons. It is part of what protects them from being attacked by Aiel of other clans (even when there is blood feud). It's an honor system, and Sorilea had no compunctions about doing away with it, while Amys was incredibly reluctant. Yes, there were advantages to it, and even justifications for it, from the perspective of battles involving people who do not follow ji'e'toh (including the Shaido).

 

(b) Her treatment of the captured AS. In this aspect, as well, you'd expect nothing more from a disillusioned WO who's confronted with honorless AS. She does see potential, and she helps the 'girls' reach it. She certainly wasn't alone in her approach, there.

She took the opportunity to break the Aes Sedai and make them be seen as subservient publicly. Whether she was justified or not isn't the point. She and Taim were the ones fighting for the honor, while the whole idea made Perrin queasy. And she let Katerine escape.

 

© Verin's comments. Now, this is a tough nut to crack, but I think it works against the theory you suggest as much as it does for it. While I have no earthly idea what "safety of a sort" is supposed to mean (since Verin sees her survival to be tied with understanding the balance of power in the camps, it could easily mean that she's glad of identifying at least one uncontested leader), the part about "In some ways, Sorilea was as hard as anyone she had ever met" doesn't fit a DF at all (otherwise it would've been the most obvious of ways, in which Sorilea was hard).

Sure, all these things can be read two ways. Elsewise we'd all know Sorilea is a Darkfriend.

 

(d) A comment, here - I think it's funny to see Sorilea herself being described as 'hard'. Indeed, Aiel leaders all are somewhat hard, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's the degree to which Rand took it that's problematic. This, for example, is a benign explanation to another point, her apparent contradicting comments on hardness.

 

(e) Her putting Cadsuane in her debt. The part about how the first half of the discussion was just a guise for her true intentions (i.e., that she isn't interested in correcting Rand's behavior) is pure conjecture, you have to admit. Otherwise, why wouldn't a Light-sider Sorilea want to have Cads indebted to her?

There is a difference between 'pure conjecture' and 'logical deduction'. Most of your points are the kind you can only make when you take something out of context. We could argue about them all day.

 

(i) And now we come to the real evidence. As I said before, everything up to this point smacks me as grasping at straws. It's the sort of thing that would cause an amused nod after knowing her to be DF, but nothing that can be considered evidence (similar, say, to Verin's distributing candies to young novices). The deal with the Sad Bracelets. Certainly, the fact that they were retrieved by Elza (given that we know SH was involved) says little in this respect, but Sorilea's asking to see them certainly is telling. This is the main reason I tend to accept your theory, but just by a hair (since it could easily be misdirection on the part of RJ/BS). Saying that Semirhage should hang, on the other part, could definitely be explained away if she is a DF, but in no way could it be considered as an indication that she is one.

The most compelling evidence for the theory, IMO, is the foreshadowing of the confrontation between Cadsuane and Sorilea. It doesn't get any more clear than that, especially taken in the context of everything else.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've probably overlooked something crucial here, but I just don't see Sorilea as a BIG BADDIE.

 

I think her plot purpose is to show how the Aiel differ from the Aes Sedai. With the AS everything is about how strong one is in the Power. With the Aiel it's all about how wise you are. How you handle responsibility and authority.

 

There IS good evidence to strongly suggest that Amys is Dark. By extension that Darkness extends to Rhuarc and all of his Clan, including Sorilea, but I've seen nothing that made me go, "Oh yeah, she's a Black Hat!" when it comes to Sorilea.

 

I've seen things that make me think she's not as wise as others believe. That she's shortsighted, thinking only about Aiel interests and not the interests of humanity as a whole. That makes her ultimately not-very-bright, but not certainly Dark.

 

As to Amys and Sorilea's disagreement about the Wise One's fighting at Dumai's Wells, let's look at motivations. As detailed in other threads there is a very strong likelihood that Amys is Dark. Who is behind Rand's kidnapping? Mesaana, who is not only one of the Chosen but also Aes Sedai. Two reasons for Amys wanting to do nothing that might be taken as looking like opposition to her wishes. Wise One's fighting to free him would most certainly be openly opposing the wishes of an Aes Sedai who is also one of the Chosen. Amys would do everything in her power to prevent the Wise One's taking part, short of give the whole game away.

 

Rather than arguing for Sorilea being Dark, her insistence that the Wise One's help free Rand is more an indication of her being Light.

[yoniy0]

Bob, this argument falls apart when confronted with the fact that it was the BT, ultimately, that freed Rand. For some reason (and we can easily speculate as to that), it was the goal of the Shadow that Rand be kidnapped by AS and then released.

 

Regardless, Terez, you really don't convince me. You keep repeating that there's a bigger picture being drawn and each small detail just adds to it (hence they shouldn't be judged on a case-by-case basis), but the problem with that is that most every detail you specify completely agrees with a Light-sider strong-willed Aiel WO Sorilea. There are actually two conflicting big pictures, and every detail that fits perfectly into both can't be used as evidence to judge between the two (though, as I said, it may well bring a knowing smile to our lips when we read it again, after the series is done).

 

Now, there are points that do support your theory over the alternative. Such is Sorilea's desire to see the DB, and its subsequent theft. This is the reason why I'm still partial to your way of looking at this issue. That doesn't mean that everything else supports this theory, though.

 

EDIT: Oh, about Katerine, come on. It was the work of a DF, for sure, but any ol' one could do it without needing Sorilea's permission.

[Terez]

Bob, this argument falls apart when confronted with the fact that it was the BT, ultimately, that freed Rand. For some reason (and we can easily speculate as to that), it was the goal of the Shadow that Rand be kidnapped by AS and then released.

 

Regardless, Terez, you really don't convince me.

It's okay; I'm still right.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Bob, this argument falls apart when confronted with the fact that it was the BT, ultimately, that freed Rand. For some reason (and we can easily speculate as to that), it was the goal of the Shadow that Rand be kidnapped by AS and then released.

 

Regardless, Terez, you really don't convince me.

It's okay; I'm still right.

 

Well, if there was ever any doubt as to whether Terez is really female, this puts all such doubt to rest.

 

Yes, Taim and the Asha'man played a very big part in Rand's rescue. But so did the Aiel loyal to the Car'a'carn. And their Wise Ones. And lets not forget Perrin and a few hundred others. The only reason the Black Tower gets to take so much of the credit is because they had Traveling and the Aiel Wise One's did not, as of yet. The Asha'man could Travel to the interior of the BA's circled wagons. Perrin and the loyal Aiel had to fight their way through the screening Shaido.

 

While there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that Taim is Dark, Occam's Razor ( or maybe it's Malcolm's ) says that he's just an unpleasant man who has his own agenda and ambitions. Whatever the reality ( if such a term can legitimately be used when talking about a fantasy series ), Taim was very obviously NOT happy about being there and helping rescue Rand. He was obviously somebody who had gotten trapped into doing something he didn't particularly want to do.

[yoniy0]

Bob, I really don't know where you're coming from:

(a) the Ashaman numbered in the hundreds by DW, and there were merely about one hundred loyal Aiel WO's and SAS there.

(b) The Ashaman did in fact have Traveling. Without that fact, Rand was very likely to end as Savana's lapdog.

© If anyone was harboring doubts (though I don't know how that's possible after KoD's epilogue), ToM did away with any credible argument against Taim's being a DF (what with the Dream Spike and the apparent 13x13 taking place at the BT, and those turned being suddenly loyal to him).

(d) As per RJ's remarks on the issue, Taim personally tracked down the TAS and brought the Ashaman there to save Rand. Where exactly in this does it appear that he didn't want to do so?

[MasterAblar]

Well, if there was ever any doubt as to whether Terez is really female, this puts all such doubt to rest.

 

Yes, Taim and the Asha'man played a very big part in Rand's rescue. But so did the Aiel loyal to the Car'a'carn. And their Wise Ones. And lets not forget Perrin and a few hundred others. The only reason the Black Tower gets to take so much of the credit is because they had Traveling and the Aiel Wise One's did not, as of yet. The Asha'man could Travel to the interior of the BA's circled wagons. Perrin and the loyal Aiel had to fight their way through the screening Shaido.

 

While there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that Taim is Dark, Occam's Razor ( or maybe it's Malcolm's ) says that he's just an unpleasant man who has his own agenda and ambitions. Whatever the reality ( if such a term can legitimately be used when talking about a fantasy series ), Taim was very obviously NOT happy about being there and helping rescue Rand. He was obviously somebody who had gotten trapped into doing something he didn't particularly want to.

 

The Ashaman travelled right into the thick of the fighting, not the interior of the wagons. And at this point the Wise One's had barely started to learn how to use the power in battle. The Ashaman had only begun to learn as well, but they were specialized in it, and they were led by Taim who definitely knew what he was doing. The Ashaman also numbered at least a 100 more than the Wise Ones. The Aes Sedai also could not detect the Ashaman's channelling, and male channellers, considering their reputation, would have more effect on the Aes Sedai than Aiel channellers. Also, I doubt the Wise One's would have managed to be as ruthless as the Ashaman against the Shaido. The BT gets credit because the rescue would ultimately have failed without them. Even if the Wise One's had travelling, I doubt they could have managed what the Ashaman did. Taim's knowledge and experience had as much importance as travelling in my opinion.

 

As for whether Taim is a darkfriend or not, it seems very, very likely. Mezar and Tarna's conditions, as well as the color scheme in Taim's palace, and even more telling, the sigil outside his palace, which is the same as Bel'al and Sammael's seem to leave little doubt, in my opinion.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, if there was ever any doubt as to whether Terez is really female, this puts all such doubt to rest.

 

Yes, Taim and the Asha'man played a very big part in Rand's rescue. But so did the Aiel loyal to the Car'a'carn. And their Wise Ones. And lets not forget Perrin and a few hundred others. The only reason the Black Tower gets to take so much of the credit is because they had Traveling and the Aiel Wise One's did not, as of yet. The Asha'man could Travel to the interior of the BA's circled wagons. Perrin and the loyal Aiel had to fight their way through the screening Shaido.

 

While there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that Taim is Dark, Occam's Razor ( or maybe it's Malcolm's ) says that he's just an unpleasant man who has his own agenda and ambitions. Whatever the reality ( if such a term can legitimately be used when talking about a fantasy series ), Taim was very obviously NOT happy about being there and helping rescue Rand. He was obviously somebody who had gotten trapped into doing something he didn't particularly want to.

 

The Ashaman travelled right into the thick of the fighting, not the interior of the wagons. And at this point the Wise One's had barely started to learn how to use the power in battle. The Ashaman had only begun to learn as well, but they were specialized in it, and they were led by Taim who definitely knew what he was doing. The Ashaman also numbered at least a 100 more than the Wise Ones. The Aes Sedai also could not detect the Ashaman's channelling, and male channellers, considering their reputation, would have more effect on the Aes Sedai than Aiel channellers. Also, I doubt the Wise One's would have managed to be as ruthless as the Ashaman against the Shaido. The BT gets credit because the rescue would ultimately have failed without them. Even if the Wise One's had travelling, I doubt they could have managed what the Ashaman did. Taim's knowledge and experience had as much importance as travelling in my opinion.

 

As for whether Taim is a darkfriend or not, it seems very, very likely. Mezar and Tarna's conditions, as well as the color scheme in Taim's palace, and even more telling, the sigil outside his palace, which is the same as Bel'al and Sammael's seem to leave little doubt, in my opinion.

 

I will agree that Taim has been painted as a traitor. What bothers me is the obviousness of it all. I keep hoping for some subtlety from Jordan. If Taim does turn out to be Black it will just be more heavy-handed bludgeoning of the reader by the author. But, if he turns out not to be Black, then it will be one of the great red herrings ever. Notice that I don't claim he's Light. I just think he's a fundamentally selfish man with a large ego.

 

As to it all being Taim. Not so much. It was Perrin who tracked Rand and his captors. It was Perrin who was prophesied to have to be there to save Rand, not Taim. And there is still one more time when Perrin must be there or Rand will fail. And most likely die. For nothing.

 

yoniy0

 

Reread my post. One of my major points was that the Asha'man could Travel but the Wise One's could not. Not yet.

[yoniy0]

Well, yes, of course. That's why I mentioned it. You say that 'the only reason' they get credit is this fact, so I just thought to mention that, well, it was true. They deserve the credit they get for it. And, the rest of my post was meant to show why that's not really the 'only' reason at all. I'm happy to see Master Ablar agrees with me on these points (though, really, what would you expect ).