Callandor, Lanfear, The Great Lord and other theories.

[Tyzack]

A slightly related question on Lanfear and Callandor...

 

I am rereading and on TSR, in the sceene where Lanfear visits Rand in the Stone, she does a good amount of channeling, and from Rands POV he mentions that she "can't be channeling, because he'd feel it" (now that he knows what to look/feel for after the "teaching session" with Egwene and Elayne).

 

My conclusion would be then that Lanfear is using the TP. Has this been confirmed at all? (Does she have access, and access to enough to weave shield, air blocks, and illusions?) Do we ever see Sa'a in her eyes because of her TP usage?

 

Or, is there a way for saidar users to mask the sensing of it from saidin users?

[gloweye]

The normal way to mask for saidar works against men as well. And we've never seen saa in her eyes. I think she is to smart to use it much.

[Atan Lodorn]

I always wondered if Taim was Moridin then is he using TP to mask and hide the fact that he has tons of saa flecks across his eyes?

 

Also Matrim when talking in the ToG the Finns tell him he is a the center of it all, not part of the center, not one of three but he is at the center, is that because of his rescue of Moiraine and the important role she has. Personally I don't think so but who knows.

 

Maybe this should be in ask a question section.

[Tyzack]

The normal way to mask for saidar works against men as well. And we've never seen saa in her eyes. I think she is to smart to use it much.

 

...There is a way to mask saidar use?

[Atan Lodorn]

I thought inverting the weaves would work even for for a man to sense...same as naeff going to the BT he's going to be disguised and can't let people know he can channel, otherwise he's gunna be a dead man.

[gloweye]

The normal way to mask for saidar works against men as well. And we've never seen saa in her eyes. I think she is to smart to use it much.

 

...There is a way to mask saidar use?

 

yes there is...inverting the weaves. its called the same for both men and woman. when rand goes to the meeting with Tuon(the time when it was Semirhague disguised) he tells the woman to embrace the source, and inverse the flows. Cadsuane then replies that they already did - clearly, he did not feel they were channeling.

 

I thought inverting the weaves would work even for for a man to sense...same as naeff going to the BT he's going to be disguised and can't let people know he can channel, otherwise he's gunna be a dead man.

 

a man not holding Saidin can't be ordinairy sensed to b be a channeler anyway...

[StalkeR]

O.k. guys, lets say Mierin comes back to the Light. We know she is power hungry, and Logain is going to have glory. So unless he gets in a perma relationship with one of the Reds he bonded i can see him going with Mierin (pair the spare).

[Dollhouse]

Their are degrees of victory for the DO. It's not that he has lost totally every time, he has just not had a complete victory and those times he won lesser victories it resulted in a draw with the light.

Sorry, that doesn't make it any less ridiculous. Since they always manage to fix the bore at every turn of he wheel, that means that the Dark One "completely loses". So "small victories" don't really make matters any better. Unless the Creator actually takes a direct hand in making the Dark One lose, him losing to people that only have a few years of experience -- people that don't remember all the (how many times now?) times they have fought before... how can he possibly keep on not fully winning unless this is either something he desires or something that makes him what he is?

 

 

Sorry, not going to let you wiggle away from the issue that quickly. I ask you for proof that just one thing LTT has told us about his old life or the other forsaken is false. You offer ravings that have no bearing on the topic. Again if LTT is in the habit of giving us lies in his madness it should be easy for you to do. Go ahead just give us one to cast doubt on what he says here.

Actually, you asked me to --->

if you could go back and let us know how many times LTT has told us something that is actually flat out false?.

So you asked me to count all the times Lews had provided us with false info. You didn't ask me to provide you with specific points in the book where it was revealed that Lews had lied about the Forsaken or about himself. Such a thing however would be hard to confirm unless we were actually shown some more flashbacks. All we have to go by now are the memories the Chosen Ones have of Lews and what happened back then and what Lews provide us with in his in his own musings.

 

He didn't like Lanfear because she wanted the prestige and power of being with him more than she wanted him. According to you Ilyena was a sex object and nothing more?

Ilyena already had a third name so marrying her would award him even more glory. So maybe not just 'sex' but also other things a woman could grant him. Again with the "he didn't like Lanfear because she wanted the prestige and power of being with him more than she wanted him." This is just what he said.

 

The natural response in that accept it and then prove it even more right by attempting to sway one to the DO and speaking of the power she wants. her response validates everything he had just thought about her.

The natural response? From Lanfear? She had already tried to make him reach for the glory, when he mentioned it again then pointing out that he SHOULD try to get this glorysituation if the claim is untrue would be to set the record straight. It certainly wouldn't be to would be natural. It would be very silly of her to try and win him over with talk about glory if Lews hadn't been very much interested in it back then.

 

Also ask yourself, if he says she only loves glory, if this is really true and he uses it against her, why continue talking about it? If anything if glory was all she cared about then she should have tried to make him think otherwise right? So in a way, while not being proof of anything, the fact that she didn't stop talking about glory (which she does want) suggests at least to me that it wasn't true.

 

We know she was a brilliant researcher and the most powerful a women could be in the OP. What then would hold someone like that from being world renowned and earning a third name? In the AoL were unselfishness and self sacrifice earned the greatest respect you can certainly see how that would have held her back. It is far more plausible than some shadowy political plot against her that is never even hinted at in the slightest.

Mierin had a temperament but she was hardly stupid. "Unselfishness and self sacrifice" are certainly things she could done until she got the third name. Rather -->

Lanfear didn't really have the chance to be anything but an underachiever. She was stronger and more adept with the power than almost anybody else, but the "Laws of the Circle" ( for lack of a better term ), dictated that for most of the important work that was being performed with the One Power, the size of the Circle needed meant a man had to lead. And, thus, he got the notoriety for whatever was achieved.

While it has never been mentioned in any of the books or anything, if we assume that Mierin and Lews were lovers for around 200+ years and they knew each other even back when they were young -- then working together in a circle chances are that many of Lews achievements might rightfully be Mierin's? Certainly if she loved him and decided that Lews belonged to her, then even if she didn't get credit for the work, as long as he did and rose in the ranks she would be happy since they were an item. This of course would mean that once Lews cast her aside, everything she had invested in their relationship... everything she had achieved together with him would solely become his. Food for thoughts?

 

Actually RJ said she may have wanted LTT but she wanted power more and that is the difference.

RJ: "Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha!"; "Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her"; "but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance."

I was talking about Mierin here, not Lanfear. Jim answered a question that specifically inquired if Lanfear was doing things for Rand's sake... not LTT.

 

Rand might be LTT reborn but he certainly wasn't him. As sen in "Dark Towers" Rand became one wityh himself and became (sort of) Lews Therin again. So even if Lanfear would not really love "Rand", it is quite possible that Cyndane would love LTT2.

 

 

BWB

Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself.

The BWB is not evidence of anything. Please stop quoting it as if it proves your point. You know as well as everyone else here that Jim has said that the BWB should be looked upon as if it was written by some schollar (that did not live during the AOL) trying to piece together info they had found. So at best info in the BWB would be 3rd hand info, Do you think Lews would actually tell people WHY he broke up with Mierin? People back then could only have been left to speculate on their own,

 

No it doesn't, not even slightly. I suggest you go back and reread the section as it says nothing of the sort. Let's not speculate and stick with the one fact that we know. RJ said others survived and none of them went over except for Lanfear.

I also said that others except for Mierin had survived the drilling of the bore. So what was it you wanted me to reread? Furthermore, Mierin didn't side up with the Great Lord until much later... she was not among the first to do so.

 

Please provide any evidence that shows that is the case with Lanfear.

She didn't get a third name even though (as you have said yourself) she was a brilliant researcher. The Great Lord offers her a chance to rule the world and eternal life.

 

See a pattern here. Yes the relationship was short.

 

BWB

It is certain that Lews Therin and Mierin were involved with one another for a short time

The BWB was written by a scholar that didn't live in AOL. That book doesn't prove anything. Rather Lews own memories of having been together with Mierin when they were young coupled with the fact that he only comparatively recently broke up with her and married Ilyena all point towards that both you and that scholar are wrong about this.

 

It was very difficult to earn a third name. There were a few rare people the world over who had achieved it.

Rare? I don't recall it even being mentioned that it was rare, only that it was something that earned you a lot of prestige.

 

All we know for fact is that she was not renowned enough to have earned it.

No, we don't know that she wasn't renowned enough. This is just iddle speculation on your part. You question my theory that it was politics but hapilly jump on the 'renowned' wagon?

 

Actually it was in answer to "As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore". His answer was that she was not twisted and had character traits that would make her predisposed to the Shadow already.

What about it? I never said she was twisted against her will because of the bore incident, I suggested that the bore incident certainly wouldn't have made her chances to be with LTT or achieve glory easier... in fact it would probably make it near impossible. She might have chosen to sign up as a Chosen but she did so because she believed she could gain something from it.

 

LTT almost certainly also possessed the ability to seek consensus...

His decision to form the 100 companions certainly seem to contradict this... Does he really seek consensus and abide by what others decide if he only does so when it suits his fancy?

 

LTT was certainly not many of the things he is accused of. Nor did he hold many of the attitudes some are ascribing to him. Had he been the person they describe, he never could have accomplished the things that he did. He never could have been proclaimed The Dragon, nor accepted as his Champion by the Creator.

Being the champion of the creator means he must be a nice person? People can't look up to a strong person and believe him to be righteous even though he isn't?

 

I wonder if those accusing him of these things find it ironic that in a society that honored self sacrifice and service above all else.

This is what we are lead to believe but even just using Semirhage as an example we know that crime did exist. Sure enough a society would strive towards controlling its citizens and encouraging them to reach enlightenment, but don't forget what kind of society existed in ancient Greece and it's "democracy".

Your asking people to believe that Lews Therin achieved ALL those spectacular feats simply by being awesome? I mean he might have been a genius of sorts but unless he was canonized there is no way that any one man could ever have achieved all those things. I.E Lews Therin's acclaim to fame must have been government supported one.