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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Sa'angreal and Saa


ZarakiToguro
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First off, hi everyone, I'm new to this forum. Just finished reading book thirteen and now want to see what kinds of theories and discussions are out there about the books. It looks like there are a ton.

 

I did some perusing through these forums and did not see anything that mentioned this, so I figured I post this, as it is something I have been thinking about for a time now. I don't know if it meets the BUT criteria, but still find this curious.

 

The question is what relationship there is between Sa'angreal and Saa (Sa'a).

 

The first time I recall reading about Saa appearing in Moridin's eyes, it struck me as curious that it was spelled the same as the first three letters of Sa'angreal. I thought that this couldn't have been just a coincidence but didn't think much on it as there was nothing else to link them.

 

Well, as the books developed and Callandor came to the forefront more, specifically it's imperfection, I thought that maybe there is some kind of relationship there.

 

My theory is that somehow, for Sa'angreal to be created or for them to be able to tap as much of the One Power as they do, they might need to be linked to the True Power, which Saa is a byproduct of. Callandor, which has a major flaw, might miss the buffer that is needed to protect the user from the True Power.

 

The implications are significant, I think.

 

- After using Callandor as second time, you see how unstable Rand becomes and the negative effects it has on him. Moridin is extremely unstable, partially because he was already crazy, but also probably because of his overuse of the True Power. When Rand uses the True Power, I seem to recall it had a similar effect on him as using Callandor for the second time.

 

- The Dark One is the "source" of the True Power. Callandor seems to have to play a big part in defeating the Dark One. Maybe the imperfection in Callandor is related to the True Power and somehow is able to trap/clense/etc. the True Power and therefore defeat the Dark One.

 

I don't know if anyone else thinks this has any merit. I post this here because there seem to be some hardcore fans on these boards who have intimate knowledge of the books. Maybe they can add to or refute this. Any thoughts are very welcome.

 

Awesome boards btw, I'm glad I found this. It will help me get by until the last book comes out.

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Well, I am not sure if anyone else has thought of this, but it is some pretty creative thinking. Well done on creating this theory!!

 

However, I have to say it is wrong.

 

Mainly because Sa'angreal were being created before the DO's prison had been bored into by Lanfear.

 

I think that the sa'angreal saa similarity is, if not a coincidence, not meant in the way you suggest.

 

I think that you are onto something with regards to Callandor. Most people assume that the flaw as is Cadsuane says. (the fact it can only be used stably linked with 2 women)

 

I think though, the flaw having something to do with the TP is possible. In fact, i think that it is pretty close to yours. Instead of all sa'angreal needing the TP to work, as you suggest, I believe that it may be Callandor's flaw that allows the TP to be accessed in a strange way, or make the wielder more vulnerable/susceptible to the TP. (supporting your theory on Rands instability etc..)

 

So basically, Callandor allows some access to the TP, which helps in some way.

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Ahh, you make an excellent point but I don't know if I agree with you. I do have observations that I'd like to share.

 

The DO has been around since Creation, just sealed up. That would suggest that TP was also around since Creation. Although Lanfear bored the hole to tap into a new type of power, that does not necessarily mean that it was TP or that TP was not "accessed" before that. Let me explain.

 

Boring the hole did not allow anyone to use TP directly, at least it does not appear that it is possible without the DO granting that power. All boring the hole did was release the DO. TP still couldn't be accessed without the DO allowing it. I would suggest that this other power that was trying to be tapped into was simply the DO and the centralization of the TP around the DO, which made it possible to "detect" it and therefore try to bore a hole to it.

 

Furthermore, like you said, Sa'angreal were around in the Age of Legends. If Callandor has a flaw that lets TP seep into the user, or whatever it does with regards to TP, then it's a flaw in the design of that Sa'angreal. Other Sa'angreal do not have this flow because they were created properly and had the correct buffer placed on it. All this may be a bit of a stretch but I think it works because we don't know when Callandor was created (I don't think we know at least). But even if it was created after the bore, that does not mean that other Sa'angreal don't also rely on TP for their strength somehow.

 

Btw, assuming that this flaw is what ends up causing the DO defeat, it raises the question of whether the flaw was intentional or unintentional. That is, did the creators of Callandor realize that if they made the Sa'angreal the way they did, it could be used to defeat the DO? If they did, I think that lends strength to this theory.

 

The last point I wanted to make is that, I think we assume that during the Age of Legends, the civilization knew more than they really did. Simply because they knew how to create Sa'angreal doesn't mean they knew exactly how it worked. There has to be a difference between Angreal and Sa'Angreal other than one is stronger than the other. The difference could be that Sa'Angreal's increased strength comes from, unbeknownst to the Aea Sedai in the Age of Legends, tapping into the TP.

 

Anyways, ultimately, I don't think that the similarity between Sa'angreal and Sa'a is just a coincidence, not when RJ is the creator of these words, which is why I was trying to figure out a possible explanation for this similarity.

Edited by ZarakiToguro
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Judging by the words angreal and sa'angreal, we can assume that the 'sa' prefix means something along the lines of 'greater' or 'superior.'

 

Saa is a single word, and has been defined as the flecks that appear in the eyes of those who channel the TP a lot.

 

Also, it's been stated that the buffers in place on properly working angreal are there to prevent burnout from over-drawing rather than some leaking-through of the taint or the TP.

 

There's no way to be sure until AMoL of course, but strong evidence points to the fact that it's just a coincidence of letters.

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I kinda like the theory. Thanks for bringing up something new!

 

The explanation for the difference of Saangreal and Angreal, as being a simple measure of strength, has always bothered me. Where is the line between when an object of the power is Saangreal or Angreal? Anyways, maybe Saangreal do use the TP and that is their defining difference from the more common angreal.

 

That being said, i do think its kind of unlikely and its probably just a coincidence of words.....

 

I also like your observation that maybe we think that they knew more in the AoL than they actually did. Its always written about like some super superior civilization (Atlantis anyone?) who knew everything there was to know, but you know how history can be inaccurate (i.e. flaws and failures covered...) ;)

Edited by Taryn
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Callandor was created after the Bore was drilled, thus, when the DO was partially free. The flaw was not intentional either, not by the people making it anyway.

JWB: Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

RJ: Yes

 

JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?

RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

 

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw.

 

It WAS the True Power that they found when they drilled the Bore. The power to be used by both men and women.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Dallas Borders 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

Q: Does RJ work out things like conservation laws, since he was a physicist?

A: (Brandon) From what I’ve seen, he considered it, the Power that is doing all these things is coming from somewhere. They discovered the Dark One by finding the Power (True Power).

 

I added the whole of the quote regarding the TP, because it is a bit unclear, but the bolded part, to the best of my knowledge,refers to the drilling of the bore, however, its not certain i suppose, I could be wrong.

 

Matt: Ok, so, what is then the nature of the Dark One’s relationship with the True Power? In other words...is he the Power or it is separate like the One Power?

Brandon: When people bored into his prison they were searching for a new source of power, they found him. Alright? Now, that leaves a strong implication that the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. The True Power when it is used rips apart the Pattern to rebuild it as it desires.

 

Here is another quote about the TP, and that they found the TP as a result of the drilling. Again, it could be interpreted differently, I suppose, but it seems eviddence is pretty strong to suggest that the TP was not active until the bore was drilled.

 

I admit, you have a point, the TP COULD have been unknowingly accessed in some way before Lanfear drilled the bore. However, know that it is an extremely unlikely stretch. Taken with the above quotes, i doubt it could be accessed, but there is a slight possibility.

 

 

So yeah, I don't think the theory is looking so good, but it could well be right. Its an interesting one anyway, it would be pretty cool if it turned out ot be true, but everything seems to point against it.

 

You might want to check out the quote database from Brandon and RJ,made by Terez. http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372 Alot of useful information that isnt in the books.

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Callandor was created after the Bore was drilled, thus, when the DO was partially free. The flaw was not intentional either, not by the people making it anyway.

JWB: Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

RJ: Yes

 

JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?

RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

 

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw.

 

It WAS the True Power that they found when they drilled the Bore. The power to be used by both men and women. Unfortunately, it was the other way round to your theory, they found the DO by finding the TP, not find the TP by the DO.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Dallas Borders 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

Q: Does RJ work out things like conservation laws, since he was a physicist?

A: (Brandon) From what I’ve seen, he considered it, the Power that is doing all these things is coming from somewhere. They discovered the Dark One by finding the Power (True Power).

 

I added the whole of the quote regarding the TP, because it is a bit unclear, but the bolded part, to the best of my knowledge,refers to the drilling of the bore, however, its not certain i suppose, I could be wrong.

 

Matt: Ok, so, what is then the nature of the Dark One’s relationship with the True Power? In other words...is he the Power or it is separate like the One Power?

Brandon: When people bored into his prison they were searching for a new source of power, they found him. Alright? Now, that leaves a strong implication that the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. The True Power when it is used rips apart the Pattern to rebuild it as it desires.

 

Here is another quote about the TP, and that they found the TP as a result of the drilling. Again, it could be interpreted differently, I suppose, but it seems eviddence is pretty strong to suggest that the TP was not active until the bore was drilled.

 

I admit, you have a point, the TP COULD have been unknowingly accessed in some way before Lanfear drilled the bore. However, know that it is an extremely unlikely stretch. Taken with the above quotes, i doubt it could be accessed, but there is a slight possibility.

 

 

So yeah, I don't think the theory is looking so good, but it could well be right. Its an interesting one anyway, it would be pretty cool if it turned out ot be true, but everything seems to point against it.

 

You might want to check out the quote database from Brandon and RJ,made by Terez. http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372 Alot of useful information that isnt in the books.

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Isn't there something in one of the early books that says something like: "The One Power, drawn from the True Source, which the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time"? I don't think the TP was created by the Dark One - I think it's just something that the Foresaken know how to use because unlike the people of the Third Age, they haven't lost how to do it. Unless the "True Source" and the "True Power" are completely different. Are they?

Edited by Elusive Athena
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Isn't there something in one of the early books that says something like: "The One Power, drawn from the True Source, which the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time"? I don't think the TP was created by the Dark One - I think it's just something that the Foresaken know how to use because unlike the people of the Third Age, they haven't lost how to do it. Unless the "True Source" and the "True Power" are completely different. Are they?

 

Yes, the True Source and True Power are different.

 

The True Source is saidar and saidin.

 

The True Power is the essance of the Dark One.

 

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

 

Matt: Ok, so, what is then the nature of the Dark One’s relationship with the True Power? In other words...is he the Power or it is separate like the One Power?

Brandon: When people bored into his prison they were searching for a new source of power, they found him. Alright? Now, that leaves a strong implication that the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. The True Power when it is used rips apart the Pattern to rebuild it as it desires. The True Power is very destructive to the Pattern. It leaves scars on the Pattern. Robert Jordan said in an interview or maybe it was actually in the books, when you make a gateway with the True Power you are actually ripping a hole in the Pattern and going somewhere else. When you are using the True Power that is what you are doing, it is contrary to the Pattern.

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