one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Paradoxic]

Jonn, I said on the old boards that I've believed the killer to be Graendal since I read the scene... and you called me a liar... but that doesn't change the fact.

 

My thought process went something like this:

Whoa, Asmodean's dead! Who did he see? Lanfear? Moiraine? No, they are dead... Sammael? No, he's waiting for Rand... Graendal! She and Rhavin were supposed to be waiting to jump Rand when he attacks Sammael...

 

Now, some may say that since I thought of Lanfear and Moiraine first, I am wrong in saying my first belief was Graendal. I say that I thought of people in order of 'closeness' to that story line and location. I also immediately discounted them.

 

As to the result of revealing Graendal: Hurray "cheap and uninteresting"!

[Jonn]

hehe' date=' we seem to have become like those Brown and White Ajah Aes Sedai in KOD discussing the appearing dead, the shifting realities and all of that chaos.

 

Look, other than through mathematics and physics, we can look at this problem very simply. Instead we use the intuitiveness of plot structure and narrative. Those are the elements we are dealing with.

 

I'm trying not to seem like swindler here by not giving my full account of what I think happened. You see, I don't want to jump the gun on RJ giving a full explanation. I know he's had half a dozen books to clean this up and maybe someone should take a crack at it. The point is, I cannot try to explain a plot point that hasn't been writen in yet. I'd rather he set out to write it and I can be right or wrong about it. The time is coming near, folks. We WILL have an answer from Moiraine. I will be right or wrong dependant on an answer that we know will come. Moiraine will return and she will have explanations and revelations to give us. Knowing what happened will either confirm her as the culprit or eliminate her from the running.

 

I cannot be as certain of Graendal as she has been around all of this time and still has not provided the concrete answer. Lanfear has been about for some time as well and no answer from her. EVeryone else fails to fit thematically or logically, let alone intuitively..At the very least Moiraine will provide AN answer if not THE answer.

 

The very best thing about the Moiraine theory is that it would be so intriguing to hear the explanation. She already works thematically as a surprising Forsaken slayer. The logic of her Modis Operandi and mysterious circumstances stand in place. As far as the narrative goes, she's near perfect. It wouldn't be cheap, it would be interesting.

 

To me to reveal Graendal at this point would be rather cheap and uninteresting. Lanfear would be mildly interesting as an explanation to what happened to her after going through the doorway. Still it would be lessened by the fact that she has really taken a back seat in matters since.[/quote']

 

Asmodean aside, though, do you really think that Graendal has just been hanging out in her palace looking at naked servants?

 

Logically, we'll find out just how much of a player she's been.

J

 

Look, we've seen POV's with her in it. We've seen her in different situations. As one of the earliest Forsaken she is certainly capable and yes, dangerous. Yet, her role though has been to be constantly eclipsed in action by the others. She brought Sammael into the fold and he immediately became a major figure in the War of Power, outshining the very act of her turning him. Ishamael, Demandred, Aginor, Lanfear, Semirhage, all outshining her in their reputions and actions. She tried to play Sammael in the current Age and again it backfired on her. Thing is, I'm not entirely sure she really minds letting the others stick their necks out at her bidding and manipulation. Certainly she's not as cautious as Moghedien, she is more daring in a lot of ways, but it seems every move she makes is just a catalyst for someone else to get the real prize. Naeblis? It truly seems like a pipe dream for her. It's actually almost sad.

So, no I'm not implying that all she does is sit around in the middle of a Compulsed orgy, but she is rather close to becoming as indolent and useless as the image she would like the others to see her as. Only, it's not because she actually is, it's because she fails to realize that no one ever believed that facade in teh first place, and as usual her attempt to fool others has ended up with her fooling herself.

[Jonn]

Jonn' date=' I said on the old boards that I've believed the killer to be Graendal since I read the scene... and you called me a liar... but that doesn't change the fact.

 

My thought process went something like this:

Whoa, Asmodean's dead! Who did he see? Lanfear? Moiraine? No, they are dead... Sammael? No, he's waiting for Rand... Graendal! She and Rhavin were supposed to be waiting to jump Rand when he attacks Sammael...

 

Now, some may say that since I thought of Lanfear and Moiraine first, I am wrong in saying my first belief was Graendal. I say that I thought of people in order of 'closeness' to that story line and location. I also immediately discounted them.

 

As to the result of revealing Graendal: Hurray "cheap and uninteresting"![/quote']

 

I think you proved my point rather than disproved it. It rings as false as ever.

 

Really though. Graendal was waiting in Caemlyn while a battle was going on? She waited until hours after it was over to track and hunt down Asmodean? Why? She got scared and decided to hide in a cupboard rather than to Travel out of there or instead to fulfill the agreement that she would aid Rahvin and Sammael. Sure, that makes sense. Rather than do something major like take on Rand alongside a powerful channeler like Rahvin, she waited in a pantry and risked exposure alone to take out Asmodean instead. That's really useful.

 

Let us not mention the unlikeliness that Rahvin would be so complicit as to allow one of his Chosen rivals in his territory for any period of time outside of a meeting...also why would Graendal want to hang around a place where she has no authority or security when she could easily be contacted and told when to leave her staging ground and attack Illian.

 

Was it discussed that Caemlyn was to be the jumping off point for the counter-attack? Where did we read that?

 

So no, factoring all those doubts in, I cannot honestly see how someone would think of Graendal, not even fourth on their list of suspects as you put her, Paradox.

[Jedimuppet]

Jonn' date=' I said on the old boards that I've believed the killer to be Graendal since I read the scene... and you called me a liar... but that doesn't change the fact.

 

My thought process went something like this:

Whoa, Asmodean's dead! Who did he see? Lanfear? Moiraine? No, they are dead... Sammael? No, he's waiting for Rand... Graendal! She and Rhavin were supposed to be waiting to jump Rand when he attacks Sammael...

 

Now, some may say that since I thought of Lanfear and Moiraine first, I am wrong in saying my first belief was Graendal. I say that I thought of people in order of 'closeness' to that story line and location. I also immediately discounted them.

 

As to the result of revealing Graendal: Hurray "cheap and uninteresting"![/quote']

 

I think you proved my point rather than disproved it. It rings as false as ever.

 

Really though. Graendal was waiting in Caemlyn while a battle was going on? She waited until hours after it was over to track and hunt down Asmodean? Why? She got scared and decided to hide in a cupboard rather than to Travel out of there or instead to fulfill the agreement that she would aid Rahvin and Sammael. Sure, that makes sense. Rather than do something major like take on Rand alongside a powerful channeler like Rahvin, she waited in a pantry and risked exposure alone to take out Asmodean instead. That's really useful.

 

Let us not mention the unlikeliness that Rahvin would be so complicit as to allow one of his Chosen rivals in his territory for any period of time outside of a meeting...also why would Graendal want to hang around a place where she has no authority or security when she could easily be contacted and told when to leave her staging ground and attack Illian.

 

Was it discussed that Caemlyn was to be the jumping off point for the counter-attack? Where did we read that?

 

So no, factoring all those doubts in, I cannot honestly see how someone would think of Graendal, not even fourth on their list of suspects as you put her, Paradox.

 

In all fairness, we know the Lanfear died, so I'm not sure how you think she did it.

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

hehe' date=' we seem to have become like those Brown and White Ajah Aes Sedai in KOD discussing the appearing dead, the shifting realities and all of that chaos.

 

Look, other than through mathematics and physics, we can look at this problem very simply. Instead we use the intuitiveness of plot structure and narrative. Those are the elements we are dealing with.

 

I'm trying not to seem like swindler here by not giving my full account of what I think happened. You see, I don't want to jump the gun on RJ giving a full explanation. I know he's had half a dozen books to clean this up and maybe someone should take a crack at it. The point is, I cannot try to explain a plot point that hasn't been writen in yet. I'd rather he set out to write it and I can be right or wrong about it. The time is coming near, folks. We WILL have an answer from Moiraine. I will be right or wrong dependant on an answer that we know will come. Moiraine will return and she will have explanations and revelations to give us. Knowing what happened will either confirm her as the culprit or eliminate her from the running.

 

I cannot be as certain of Graendal as she has been around all of this time and still has not provided the concrete answer. Lanfear has been about for some time as well and no answer from her. EVeryone else fails to fit thematically or logically, let alone intuitively..At the very least Moiraine will provide AN answer if not THE answer.

 

The very best thing about the Moiraine theory is that it would be so intriguing to hear the explanation. She already works thematically as a surprising Forsaken slayer. The logic of her Modis Operandi and mysterious circumstances stand in place. As far as the narrative goes, she's near perfect. It wouldn't be cheap, it would be interesting.

 

To me to reveal Graendal at this point would be rather cheap and uninteresting. Lanfear would be mildly interesting as an explanation to what happened to her after going through the doorway. Still it would be lessened by the fact that she has really taken a back seat in matters since.[/quote']

 

Asmodean aside, though, do you really think that Graendal has just been hanging out in her palace looking at naked servants?

 

Logically, we'll find out just how much of a player she's been.

J

 

I don't see why you say aside from Asmodean, because I don't think she had anything to do with his death. Your comment sounds like a desperate attempt to get an unwitting agreement for Graendal killed Asmodean.

 

To be perfectly honest, hanging around her palace and staring at naked servents is exactly what I consider to be the extent of her accomplishments. Anything else and she might risk breaking a nail. She is an established character, and there isn't even that much from her own PoV's to suggest she is capable of doing anything else with any real level of success. To make her a major player at this point invalidates everything that was presented about her up until now.

 

I always find it hard to understand why so many people consider her to be a major player. Her position is well established as that of a sidekick. The only real attempt that she made to do anything on her own backfired leaving her Sammael's pawn. That Sammael ultimately died trying to pull off his plans had nothing to do with anything Graendal managed to accomplish.

 

Even her attempts to manipulate the current population of the Wheel of Time world aren't very successful. She's sitting in Arad Domon trying to promote chaos. Not a real difficult thing to do considering Arad Domon was already divided up into a whole bunch of factions fighting a civil war before she got there. To top it off, she still wasn't that successful. Sure, she managed to get her hands on the king, but then she screwed up by over doing things. By Crossroads of Twilight Ituralde had already started operating on his own and was avoiding messengers from the king because the orders were so contradictory it became obvious the source of them wasn't exactly competent. Ultimately, another failure in the making for Graendal.

[Jedimuppet]

hehe' date=' we seem to have become like those Brown and White Ajah Aes Sedai in KOD discussing the appearing dead, the shifting realities and all of that chaos.

 

Look, other than through mathematics and physics, we can look at this problem very simply. Instead we use the intuitiveness of plot structure and narrative. Those are the elements we are dealing with.

 

I'm trying not to seem like swindler here by not giving my full account of what I think happened. You see, I don't want to jump the gun on RJ giving a full explanation. I know he's had half a dozen books to clean this up and maybe someone should take a crack at it. The point is, I cannot try to explain a plot point that hasn't been writen in yet. I'd rather he set out to write it and I can be right or wrong about it. The time is coming near, folks. We WILL have an answer from Moiraine. I will be right or wrong dependant on an answer that we know will come. Moiraine will return and she will have explanations and revelations to give us. Knowing what happened will either confirm her as the culprit or eliminate her from the running.

 

I cannot be as certain of Graendal as she has been around all of this time and still has not provided the concrete answer. Lanfear has been about for some time as well and no answer from her. EVeryone else fails to fit thematically or logically, let alone intuitively..At the very least Moiraine will provide AN answer if not THE answer.

 

The very best thing about the Moiraine theory is that it would be so intriguing to hear the explanation. She already works thematically as a surprising Forsaken slayer. The logic of her Modis Operandi and mysterious circumstances stand in place. As far as the narrative goes, she's near perfect. It wouldn't be cheap, it would be interesting.

 

To me to reveal Graendal at this point would be rather cheap and uninteresting. Lanfear would be mildly interesting as an explanation to what happened to her after going through the doorway. Still it would be lessened by the fact that she has really taken a back seat in matters since.[/quote']

 

Asmodean aside, though, do you really think that Graendal has just been hanging out in her palace looking at naked servants?

 

Logically, we'll find out just how much of a player she's been.

J

 

I don't see why you say aside from Asmodean, because I don't think she had anything to do with his death. Your comment sounds like a desperate attempt to get an unwitting agreement for Graendal killed Asmodean.

 

To be perfectly honest, hanging around her palace and staring at naked servents is exactly what I consider to be the extent of her accomplishments. Anything else and she might risk breaking a nail. She is an established character, and there isn't even that much from her own PoV's to suggest she is capable of doing anything else with any real level of success. To make her a major player at this point invalidates everything that was presented about her up until now.

 

I always find it hard to understand why so many people consider her to be a major player. Her position is well established as that of a sidekick. The only real attempt that she made to do anything on her own backfired leaving her Sammael's pawn. That Sammael ultimately died trying to pull off his plans had nothing to do with anything Graendal managed to accomplish.

 

Even her attempts to manipulate the current population of the Wheel of Time world aren't very successful. She's sitting in Arad Domon trying to promote chaos. Not a real difficult thing to do considering Arad Domon was already divided up into a whole bunch of factions fighting a civil war before she got there. To top it off, she still wasn't that successful. Sure, she managed to get her hands on the king, but then she screwed up by over doing things. By Crossroads of Twilight Ituralde had already started operating on his own and was avoiding messengers from the king because the orders were so contradictory it became obvious the source of them wasn't exactly competent. Ultimately, another failure in the making for Graendal.

 

In the words of Monty Python, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. Can I reccomend you just calm the heck down, because you betrayed your thought process more than elucidating mine. I wasn't making a point for Graendal. Hence, aside from Asmodean.

 

Perhaps you can explain what about aside from didn't you understand? Please stop calling me desparate or I'll call you out based on your comments.

Thanks,

J

[Sweet 666]

Why is this forum always blinking at me? It's like click here, read me, i'm trying to suck out your mind and destroy your life.?? :?

[Jonn]

[

 

In all fairness' date= we know the Lanfear died, so I'm not sure how you think she did it.

J[/quote]

 

What? I'm in the Moiraine camp.

[rd2000]

All I am seeing is people who refuse to look at any viewpoint other than their own. Pitiful

 

I personally think the topic should be closed. This topic sounds like a broken record with personal insults starting to be the only new thing thrown in.

[Jedimuppet]

All I am seeing is people who refuse to look at any viewpoint other than their own. Pitiful

 

I personally think the topic should be closed. This topic sounds like a broken record with personal insults starting to be the only new thing thrown in.

 

I'm going to say this once and only once. I really hate how people come in and evangelize about how the topic goes nowhere, when all day Jonn, GF and I have been having a friendly nice conversation without disparaging adjectives being thrown around.

 

Nuff said

J

[Jedimuppet]

[

 

In all fairness' date= we know the Lanfear died, so I'm not sure how you think she did it.

J[/quote]

 

What? I'm in the Moiraine camp.

 

Whoops. Messed up.

 

Well I excluded Moiraine because of being held by the Finn. Since she's still being held by the Finn, I don't buy her being out for a short time or something like that.

J

[rd2000]

 

In the words of Monty Python' date=' I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. Can I reccomend you just calm the heck down, because you betrayed your thought process more than elucidating mine. I wasn't making a point for Graendal. Hence, aside from Asmodean.

 

Perhaps you can explain what about aside from didn't you understand? Please stop calling me desparate or I'll call you out based on your comments.

Thanks,

J[/quote']

 

Maybe I took your tone out of context? If so, sorry.

[Jedimuppet]

 

In the words of Monty Python' date=' I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. Can I reccomend you just calm the heck down, because you betrayed your thought process more than elucidating mine. I wasn't making a point for Graendal. Hence, aside from Asmodean.

 

Perhaps you can explain what about aside from didn't you understand? Please stop calling me desparate or I'll call you out based on your comments.

Thanks,

J[/quote']

 

Maybe I took your tone out of context? If so, sorry.

 

Yeah, you did. The theme today was nice, because there weren't a lot of people calling names like there were before I went on vacation. We actually discussed the notion of intuitively obvious, and explored other people's points of view, which is why I was a bit miffed.

 

But, whatever. No big deal.

J

[Jonn]

[

 

In all fairness' date= we know the Lanfear died, so I'm not sure how you think she did it.

J[/quote]

 

What? I'm in the Moiraine camp.

 

Whoops. Messed up.

 

Well I excluded Moiraine because of being held by the Finn. Since she's still being held by the Finn, I don't buy her being out for a short time or something like that.

J

 

The realm of the Finns has seen its fair share of in and out traffic. In fact we are about to see a bit more of it in Moiraine's rescue by Mat. Up until the time of the murder we have been given clues about the nature or alternate realms encrouching on the "real world". This includes Portal Stone worlds, Tel Aran Rhiod and of course, the Finn realm. What the natural conclusion should be is that these planes of existence are all intertwined and the rules governing separation can be bent. What examples do we have? We have Baalzamon from the very beginning, bending reality. We have Selene/Lanfear demonstrating knowledge of these realities and how they may be perceived. We have the Waygates bending time. The terangreal in Rhuidean and the White Tower showing fractured possibilites and realities. We have Slayer/Luc/Isam entering and leaving the World of Dreams in the flesh. Later we have Birgitte becoming flesh out of the Dream. Example after throughout the series we are shown these things and we still question how it is possible for someone like Moiraine to touch events even as she is in custody? Things that should be impossible are done again and again. The only bar to these things are the will to attempt them and the tools to do so.

 

The only bar to Moiraine is her being held? You really think that she would languish without doing something? What books are we reading here? It's about the characters folks. that's how you should fit the pieces of this puzzle. Look at the character first.

[Jedimuppet]

[

 

In all fairness' date= we know the Lanfear died, so I'm not sure how you think she did it.

J[/quote]

 

What? I'm in the Moiraine camp.

 

Whoops. Messed up.

 

Well I excluded Moiraine because of being held by the Finn. Since she's still being held by the Finn, I don't buy her being out for a short time or something like that.

J

 

The realm of the Finns has seen its fair share of in and out traffic. In fact we are about to see a bit more of it in Moiraine's rescue by Mat. Up until the time of the murder we have been given clues about the nature or alternate realms encrouching on the "real world". This includes Portal Stone worlds, Tel Aran Rhiod and of course, the Finn realm. What the natural conclusion should be is that these planes of existence are all intertwined and the rules governing separation can be bent. What examples do we have? We have Baalzamon from the very beginning, bending reality. We have Selene/Lanfear demonstrating knowledge of these realities and how they may be perceived. We have the Waygates bending time. The terangreal in Rhuidean and the White Tower showing fractured possibilites and realities. We have Slayer/Luc/Isam entering and leaving the World of Dreams in the flesh. Later we have Birgitte becoming flesh out of the Dream. Example after throughout the series we are shown these things and we still question how it is possible for someone like Moiraine to touch events even as she is in custody? Things that should be impossible are done again and again. The only bar to these things are the will to attempt them and the tools to do so.

 

The only bar to Moiraine is her being held? You really think that she would languish without doing something? What books are we reading here? It's about the characters folks. that's how you should fit the pieces of this puzzle. Look at the character first.

 

It's not that she's held as much as the fact that she's still held. If she was able to become free to kill Asmo, why would she return?

J

[Jonn]

[

 

It's not that she's held as much as the fact that she's still held. If she was able to become free to kill Asmo' date= why would she return?

J[/quote]

 

(Thus is the agreement made...)

 

Is that your only concern about Moiraine's case, that she is still held?

My point was that it isn't an impossibility that she could get what she wanted and still be in custody.

 

With the Finns, a price is always paid, and they usually get the better share. The only way to come out even is to break the rules somehow.

 

Moiraine was pretty much saying that there was no other way for her to deal with the situation other than the way she did. In her letter to Thom and Mat she verifies that things must happen a particular way for them to work and it's not always going to be better understood if she explains in great detail.

 

Ultimately J, your concerns about her ability to effect the outside world are already partially answered. The complete answer will be given soon, and that is a guarantee.

[Paradoxic]

Really though. Graendal was waiting in Caemlyn while a battle was going on? She waited until hours after it was over to track and hunt down Asmodean? Why? She got scared and decided to hide in a cupboard rather than to Travel out of there or instead to fulfill the agreement that she would aid Rahvin and Sammael. Sure' date=' that makes sense. Rather than do something major like take on Rand alongside a powerful channeler like Rahvin, she waited in a pantry and risked exposure alone to take out Asmodean instead. That's really useful.

 

Let us not mention the unlikeliness that Rahvin would be so complicit as to allow one of his Chosen rivals in his territory for any period of time outside of a meeting...also why would Graendal want to hang around a place where she has no authority or security when she could easily be contacted and told when to leave her staging ground and attack Illian.

 

Was it discussed that Caemlyn was to be the jumping off point for the counter-attack? Where did we read that?

 

So no, factoring all those doubts in, I cannot honestly see how someone would think of Graendal, not even fourth on their list of suspects as you put her, Paradox.[/quote']

 

I did not say she was there from the get go. Just like any lanfear/moiraine supporter will tell you, there is the "it must be X!" moment at first and then, later, the period where all the 'how' and 'why' questions are figured out to that person's satisfaction.

 

As for Caemlynn as launching point... we have no reason to think it wasn't supposed to be Caemlynn... but I don't think she was actually hanging out sharing a glass of wine when Rand arrives. I think she comes by later.

 

Moghedian knows about Rand's attack on Caemlynn before he launches it (she tells Nynaeve about it when they are watching the T'A'R fight). It is perfectly reasonable that other Forsaken could learned about it in a similar amount of time. None of the Forsaken seem entirely worried with wandering around places they shouldn't be without even a complex mask on (Rhavin isn't wearing a mask, nor is Sammael, and Moghedian's mask in the museum is very similar to her own face), so for Asmodean to recognize the snooping Graendal would not be surprising.

 

Now, Jonn, my question for is this: How can you list these issues with Graendal being in the Palace when your own choice, Moiraine, has even larger and stronger reasons against her? I mean, we know that the Forsaken can travel, we don't know anything about how the Finn-land transportation works... in fact, what we do know about the ONLY ways in and out of Finn-land is that the doors provide the ONLY access. Without the doors it would be impossible to travel between the worlds according to all of the information we've ever seen. Where did we read that the Finns can do transportation without doorways? Where did we read that they can drag people back in? I'd call that single fact such an insurmountable obstical that I cannot honestly see how someone would think of Moiraine (or Lanfear) as the killer, as you have Jonn.

[Guest cwestervelt]

hehe' date=' we seem to have become like those Brown and White Ajah Aes Sedai in KOD discussing the appearing dead, the shifting realities and all of that chaos.

 

Look, other than through mathematics and physics, we can look at this problem very simply. Instead we use the intuitiveness of plot structure and narrative. Those are the elements we are dealing with.

 

I'm trying not to seem like swindler here by not giving my full account of what I think happened. You see, I don't want to jump the gun on RJ giving a full explanation. I know he's had half a dozen books to clean this up and maybe someone should take a crack at it. The point is, I cannot try to explain a plot point that hasn't been writen in yet. I'd rather he set out to write it and I can be right or wrong about it. The time is coming near, folks. We WILL have an answer from Moiraine. I will be right or wrong dependant on an answer that we know will come. Moiraine will return and she will have explanations and revelations to give us. Knowing what happened will either confirm her as the culprit or eliminate her from the running.

 

I cannot be as certain of Graendal as she has been around all of this time and still has not provided the concrete answer. Lanfear has been about for some time as well and no answer from her. EVeryone else fails to fit thematically or logically, let alone intuitively..At the very least Moiraine will provide AN answer if not THE answer.

 

The very best thing about the Moiraine theory is that it would be so intriguing to hear the explanation. She already works thematically as a surprising Forsaken slayer. The logic of her Modis Operandi and mysterious circumstances stand in place. As far as the narrative goes, she's near perfect. It wouldn't be cheap, it would be interesting.

 

To me to reveal Graendal at this point would be rather cheap and uninteresting. Lanfear would be mildly interesting as an explanation to what happened to her after going through the doorway. Still it would be lessened by the fact that she has really taken a back seat in matters since.[/quote']

 

Asmodean aside, though, do you really think that Graendal has just been hanging out in her palace looking at naked servants?

 

Logically, we'll find out just how much of a player she's been.

J

 

I don't see why you say aside from Asmodean, because I don't think she had anything to do with his death. Your comment sounds like a desperate attempt to get an unwitting agreement for Graendal killed Asmodean.

 

To be perfectly honest, hanging around her palace and staring at naked servents is exactly what I consider to be the extent of her accomplishments. Anything else and she might risk breaking a nail. She is an established character, and there isn't even that much from her own PoV's to suggest she is capable of doing anything else with any real level of success. To make her a major player at this point invalidates everything that was presented about her up until now.

 

I always find it hard to understand why so many people consider her to be a major player. Her position is well established as that of a sidekick. The only real attempt that she made to do anything on her own backfired leaving her Sammael's pawn. That Sammael ultimately died trying to pull off his plans had nothing to do with anything Graendal managed to accomplish.

 

Even her attempts to manipulate the current population of the Wheel of Time world aren't very successful. She's sitting in Arad Domon trying to promote chaos. Not a real difficult thing to do considering Arad Domon was already divided up into a whole bunch of factions fighting a civil war before she got there. To top it off, she still wasn't that successful. Sure, she managed to get her hands on the king, but then she screwed up by over doing things. By Crossroads of Twilight Ituralde had already started operating on his own and was avoiding messengers from the king because the orders were so contradictory it became obvious the source of them wasn't exactly competent. Ultimately, another failure in the making for Graendal.

 

In the words of Monty Python, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. Can I reccomend you just calm the heck down, because you betrayed your thought process more than elucidating mine. I wasn't making a point for Graendal. Hence, aside from Asmodean.

 

Perhaps you can explain what about aside from didn't you understand? Please stop calling me desparate or I'll call you out based on your comments.

Thanks,

J

 

My apologies. I never meant the first part to be taken seriously. It was triggered more from the potential that what I was about to say could have unintended meaning if read wrong. I never think of using the icons to provide visual clues, and words can easily pass the wrong message.

[Illiara]

I think that it has to be either Graendal or Semirhage. It can't be a man, otherwise Asmodean would have felt the man arrive by a gateway. Graendal sounded as if she was scared of Rand, and might kill Asmodean just to make sure that she survived to become Nae'blis. Semirhage likes torture, and is known to conspire with Demandred, who I think wanted Asmodean dead.

[Jonn]

Really though. Graendal was waiting in Caemlyn while a battle was going on? She waited until hours after it was over to track and hunt down Asmodean? Why? She got scared and decided to hide in a cupboard rather than to Travel out of there or instead to fulfill the agreement that she would aid Rahvin and Sammael. Sure' date=' that makes sense. Rather than do something major like take on Rand alongside a powerful channeler like Rahvin, she waited in a pantry and risked exposure alone to take out Asmodean instead. That's really useful.

 

Let us not mention the unlikeliness that Rahvin would be so complicit as to allow one of his Chosen rivals in his territory for any period of time outside of a meeting...also why would Graendal want to hang around a place where she has no authority or security when she could easily be contacted and told when to leave her staging ground and attack Illian.

 

Was it discussed that Caemlyn was to be the jumping off point for the counter-attack? Where did we read that?

 

So no, factoring all those doubts in, I cannot honestly see how someone would think of Graendal, not even fourth on their list of suspects as you put her, Paradox.[/quote']

 

I did not say she was there from the get go. Just like any lanfear/moiraine supporter will tell you, there is the "it must be X!" moment at first and then, later, the period where all the 'how' and 'why' questions are figured out to that person's satisfaction.

 

As for Caemlynn as launching point... we have no reason to think it wasn't supposed to be Caemlynn... but I don't think she was actually hanging out sharing a glass of wine when Rand arrives. I think she comes by later.

 

Moghedian knows about Rand's attack on Caemlynn before he launches it (she tells Nynaeve about it when they are watching the T'A'R fight). It is perfectly reasonable that other Forsaken could learned about it in a similar amount of time. None of the Forsaken seem entirely worried with wandering around places they shouldn't be without even a complex mask on (Rhavin isn't wearing a mask, nor is Sammael, and Moghedian's mask in the museum is very similar to her own face), so for Asmodean to recognize the snooping Graendal would not be surprising.

 

Now, Jonn, my question for is this: How can you list these issues with Graendal being in the Palace when your own choice, Moiraine, has even larger and stronger reasons against her? I mean, we know that the Forsaken can travel, we don't know anything about how the Finn-land transportation works... in fact, what we do know about the ONLY ways in and out of Finn-land is that the doors provide the ONLY access. Without the doors it would be impossible to travel between the worlds according to all of the information we've ever seen. Where did we read that the Finns can do transportation without doorways? Where did we read that they can drag people back in? I'd call that single fact such an insurmountable obstical that I cannot honestly see how someone would think of Moiraine (or Lanfear) as the killer, as you have Jonn.

 

Moghedien knows things because she is probably one of the most talented Dreamers to ever live. That's how she survives, by hiding and gathering information. To say that Graendal would know the same things is a logical fallacy. If Graendal knows so much why doesn't Rahvin know or Sammael for that matter, or all of the Forsaken? We obviously find out now that none of those people knew Rand would attack so suddenly and in the wrong place.

 

That's the heart of the argument against Graendal. Moghedien actually shares what she knows with us through an expository scene with dialogue. That's how we account for characters, by what they can tell us. The only reason Moghedien is even sharing any information at all is because Nynaeve has her literlly by the throat. You think she would be so free with what she knows with any of the others for any other reason than to buy herself some advantage? Of course not. How do we know that? because we read her character throughout the series and can come to that conclusion. CHARACTER.

Plotting or not, what does Moghedien have to gain in telling Graendal anything as useful as her suspicion that Rand will attack Caemlyn instead of Illian, and at the same time withold that information from Rahvin and Sammael? this would all have to have happened before her capture by Nynaeve and with her divulging without the same level of duress as being held by an a'dam.

The impossibility of means in this case trump the impossibility of plot and character. How do we come to these conclusions without deep thought and a degree of speculation?

Paradox, you would so like to cast off the inadequacies of your theories in favor of pushing the Moiraine theory's issues into light. The thing is, we now have a promise of illumination while Graendal theorists are not assured of any further divulging of that character's mechanations past.

 

I think the reason you sweep aside criticism is because you cannot answer without dreaded speculation. What's worse is that to do so in Graendal's case would require us to make things up about her character which, if I may be frank, is mostly rubbish.

 

Here's something for you to think about: the Tower of Genghei. Yet another way to enter the Finn realm. Apparently you can do so in TAR as well, which is kind of weird. Hmm, how does one move about in TAR? Ah yes, by thinking about a place and going there. If only people could do the same thing while they were awake and in the flesh. We all know that's impossible, right?

But who cares, all of this stuff about the Finn's we know very little of. It's not like we got a picture of how they conduct a bargain or anything. You know, what with the dealing and the price being usually higher than the gain. Of course I'm making all of this stuff up right? None of this is in the books is it? I'm not being sarcastic enough, am I?

[darkshadow201068]

OK...

 

In my opinion, there are only three posibilities.

 

Lanfear

Moraine

Ishmael

 

In my opinion, the most likely canidate is Ishmael. It doesnt say in the books when he was brought back (i dont think) and would have considerable cause to kill him. The dark one and other forsaken are under the impression that Asmo has turncoated and they wouldnt want him teaching rand how to channel.

 

Personaly, these three are the only ones who would have cited the surprised reaction that asmo gave.

 

There, now you can begin raining flames on me...

[Jedimuppet]

[

 

It's not that she's held as much as the fact that she's still held. If she was able to become free to kill Asmo' date= why would she return?

J[/quote]

 

(Thus is the agreement made...)

 

Is that your only concern about Moiraine's case, that she is still held?

My point was that it isn't an impossibility that she could get what she wanted and still be in custody.

 

With the Finns, a price is always paid, and they usually get the better share. The only way to come out even is to break the rules somehow.

 

Moiraine was pretty much saying that there was no other way for her to deal with the situation other than the way she did. In her letter to Thom and Mat she verifies that things must happen a particular way for them to work and it's not always going to be better understood if she explains in great detail.

 

Ultimately J, your concerns about her ability to effect the outside world are already partially answered. The complete answer will be given soon, and that is a guarantee.

 

So are you essentially saying that because you believe the killer is intuitively obvious, and because MOiraine was the first one you thought of, that everything else is just an attempt to support that? I mean that's fine if it is; I'm just trying to understand. I personally think the reasoning that you're going through is a bit tenuous, and I'll try to demonstrate why.

 

Moiraine is held, and I think we can agree to that. If I understand you, you're saying she used a wish to kill Asmo? There's only two ways that could happen:

 

1) she wishes explicitly..."I wish Asmo were dead", or "I wish I could kill Asmo"

2) She wishes to aid rand or hurt the Shadow (remember, though, that wishes touching on the shadow have nasty consequences - as I think Lanfear found).

 

My problem is this: I don't think she would explicitly wish to kill Asmo. Her letter seems to make clear that she knew who he was, and that she recognized the importance of rand having a teacher.

 

Implicitly is better in that she could just wish to help Rand, but I'm not sure losing his teacher was the best thing for Rand at that point.

 

I think you might have to respond, explaining what kind of wish you think she made.

 

Now if she was the vehicle for killing Asmo, how did she return to Finnland? We have seen the tower as an example of their world touching this world, but the books seem to elucidate the notion that they don't spend more than a couple seconds in this world at a time, and those seconds seem to be near doorways (as in Mat's case). If she was free, wouldn't she do a jig, and go find her friends?

 

I would buy Lanfear before I bought Moiraine, I think, but I'm curious to see how you get around those objections.

J

[Jedimuppet]

OK...

 

In my opinion' date=' there are only three posibilities.

 

Lanfear

Moraine

Ishmael

 

In my opinion, the most likely canidate is Ishmael. It doesnt say in the books when he was brought back (i dont think) and would have considerable cause to kill him. The dark one and other forsaken are under the impression that Asmo has turncoated and they wouldnt want him teaching rand how to channel.

 

Personaly, these three are the only ones who would have cited the surprised reaction that asmo gave.

 

There, now you can begin raining flames on me...[/quote']

 

In my opinion, you can take Moridin/Ishy off that list, because Ishy was dead, and we'd not yet been introduced to Moridin.

 

Rj stated we had been introduced to the killer, and I don't interpret that to mean a reincarnation, though I do suppose that's debatable.

J

[Inara]

cant be a reincarnation, asmo recognised his killer

[Jedimuppet]

cant be a reincarnation' date=' asmo recognised his killer[/quote']

 

That's true; I didn't even think of the simplest counterargument.

J