one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Jellybelly]

The weaves might be invisible, but the beam of Balefire would sure as hell not be invisible.

[Jedimuppet]

The weaves might be invisible' date=' but the beam of Balefire would sure as hell not be invisible.[/quote']

 

True, but there's doubts with every other method as to what happened to the body.

 

I guess a gateway could've been used to transport the body away, but BF still seems the most likely to me.

 

Even though it's bright, it would only be noticed if someone was in a direct line of sight. I don't believe that was the case, as he apparently wandered for some time before stepping into that pantry.

 

J

[goldeneys]

well if he was Bf'd, then something he had done lately (like I don't know what) would have been undone.

[Jedimuppet]

well if he was Bf'd' date=' then something he had done lately (like I don't know what) would have been undone.[/quote']

 

That wouldn't matter as far as whether the BF was visible, though.

 

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

What really gets me is no one responded to the notion that Asmodean was BF'd because the DO didn't bring him back. I was sure that would be controversial' date=' but like I said before, I think he'd have been brought back mindtrapped. If he was indeed bf'd, I think that's a significant breakthrough.

 

J[/quote']

 

Why would that be controversial? I always believed he was BF'd. I just don't agree that Graendal was the one that did it.

[Jedimuppet]

What really gets me is no one responded to the notion that Asmodean was BF'd because the DO didn't bring him back. I was sure that would be controversial' date=' but like I said before, I think he'd have been brought back mindtrapped. If he was indeed bf'd, I think that's a significant breakthrough.

 

J[/quote']

 

Why would that be controversial? I always believed he was BF'd. I just don't agree that Graendal was the one that did it.

 

It always seemed like people believed the DO didn't want to bring Asmo back because he was a traitor, rather than that he couldn't.

 

That may have been my misconception, though.

 

I, too, think BF is a logical conclusion.

 

J

[goldeneys]

It always seemed like people believed the DO didn't want to bring Asmo back because he was a traitor' date=' rather than that he couldn't.[/quote']

 

That is what I think.

[Guest cwestervelt]

well if he was Bf'd' date=' then something he had done lately (like I don't know what) would have been undone.[/quote']

 

Not if the strength of the Balefire was minimal. Remember, Moiraine says she can only do a second or so at most. While that could just have been her belief, Rand's BF against the Myrddraal and Trollocs after he killed Rahvin also showed little to no visible undoing of actions. Being low strength would also keep it being detected from very far away. There isn't much difficulty with Balefire being the murder weapon provided Asmodean wasn't in line of site of anyone and the description of his wandering is an indicator that he probably wasn't.

 

That is where the difficulty of any Power created Gateways being used to take away a body come in as they would be easily detected.

[Guest cwestervelt]

What really gets me is no one responded to the notion that Asmodean was BF'd because the DO didn't bring him back. I was sure that would be controversial' date=' but like I said before, I think he'd have been brought back mindtrapped. If he was indeed bf'd, I think that's a significant breakthrough.

 

J[/quote']

 

Why would that be controversial? I always believed he was BF'd. I just don't agree that Graendal was the one that did it.

 

It always seemed like people believed the DO didn't want to bring Asmo back because he was a traitor, rather than that he couldn't.

 

That may have been my misconception, though.

 

I, too, think BF is a logical conclusion.

 

J

 

Considering Lanfear is now "Last Chance" there is a good bet that Dark One knew just how much of a traitor Asmodean really was. Apparently the Dark One really doesn't care as he obviously knew at least some of what she was up to, yet she was brought back.

[goldeneys]

well cwest, you got a point there, we will just have to see in aMoL, and then one of us can say "Ha told you".

[Jedimuppet]

What really gets me is no one responded to the notion that Asmodean was BF'd because the DO didn't bring him back. I was sure that would be controversial' date=' but like I said before, I think he'd have been brought back mindtrapped. If he was indeed bf'd, I think that's a significant breakthrough.

 

J[/quote']

 

Why would that be controversial? I always believed he was BF'd. I just don't agree that Graendal was the one that did it.

 

It always seemed like people believed the DO didn't want to bring Asmo back because he was a traitor, rather than that he couldn't.

 

That may have been my misconception, though.

 

I, too, think BF is a logical conclusion.

 

J

 

Considering Lanfear is now "Last Chance" there is a good bet that Dark One knew just how much of a traitor Asmodean really was. Apparently the Dark One really doesn't care as he obviously knew at least some of what she was up to, yet she was brought back.

 

Well this brings us to as convenient a segue as any: how is it that Moraine (your pick right, cwestervelt?) could have killed Asmo, and why would she want to? Remember she's *still* being held.

 

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

It's already been stated several times throughout the thread and I know I haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of convincing anyone, but the main points are as follows:

 

• 
  1) She went through the doorway
  2) She made a wish, to kill a Foresaken, remove a danger to Rand, whatever. The key is, the Finn's interpret the wish and the person rarely gets exactly what they wanted.
  3) The Finn's toss her out into that room/hallway where she see's Asmodean and off's him. Because she was disoriented too, Asmodean had enough time to recognizer her, and essentially thought he was seeing a ghost. Since we know she still considered him to be the same person he always was, she wouldn't hesitate to act once she's regained her balance so to speak. At that point we have a nice little near mirror of her killing Bel'al.
  4) Her business with the Finn's isn't done, so the Finn's pull her back. She is not impulsive like Mat, so she may very well have had time to act on one wish before needing to make the next one. Since the the Finn's can place someone in a specific position as shown by the hanging of Mat, why shouldn't they be able to pull someone back from there?
  5) Moiraine is still being held cause she hasn't made her third wish. She has not done so because she knows she has no way of "paying" and would therefore forfeit her life.
  

 

In my personal opinion, disorientation of the killer is a much more believable reason for the delay than any supposed shock value that would have been better served by an immediate strike. The Finn's dumping her and yanking her back are a much more believable option than needing to try and create any Gateways and run the risk of detection. The lack of explanation in the story also makes sense as we haven't seen the killer on screen since the actual time of the killing.

 

The final point why I still think Moiraine killed him is that to me it was obvious from the very beginning. I never thought twice about who killed him or how or why when I first read the scene. It appeared perfectly obvious that Moiraine had balefired Asmodean long before RJ was ever quoted as saying it should be obvious to the casual observer. You could say it was an epiphany moment. I read Asmodean's murder, and the very first thought that went through my mind was, "Moiraine is alive." When I first read Lord of Chaos I fully expected it to be made common knowledge that Moiraine was still alive. When it didn't happen and Crown of Swords came out I expected the same thing. I've been expecting Moiraine's return with each of the books since then and it was all because of the killing of Asmodean.

[Jedimuppet]

It's already been stated several times throughout the thread and I know I haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of convincing anyone' date=' but the main points are as follows:

 

[list']

1) She went through the doorway

2) She made a wish, to kill a Foresaken, remove a danger to Rand, whatever. The key is, the Finn's interpret the wish and the person rarely gets exactly what they wanted.

3) The Finn's toss her out into that room/hallway where she see's Asmodean and off's him. Because she was disoriented too, Asmodean had enough time to recognizer her, and essentially thought he was seeing a ghost. Since we know she still considered him to be the same person he always was, she wouldn't hesitate to act once she's regained her balance so to speak. At that point we have a nice little near mirror of her killing Bel'al.

4) Her business with the Finn's isn't done, so the Finn's pull her back. She is not impulsive like Mat, so she may very well have had time to act on one wish before needing to make the next one. Since the the Finn's can place someone in a specific position as shown by the hanging of Mat, why shouldn't they be able to pull someone back from there?

5) Moiraine is still being held cause she hasn't made her third wish. She has not done so because she knows she has no way of "paying" and would therefore forfeit her life.

 

In my personal opinion, disorientation of the killer is a much more believable reason for the delay than any supposed shock value that would have been better served by an immediate strike. The Finn's dumping her and yanking her back are a much more believable option than needing to try and create any Gateways and run the risk of detection. The lack of explanation in the story also makes sense as we haven't seen the killer on screen since the actual time of the killing.

 

The final point why I still think Moiraine killed him is that to me it was obvious from the very beginning. I never thought twice about who killed him or how or why when I first read the scene. It appeared perfectly obvious that Moiraine had balefired Asmodean long before RJ was ever quoted as saying it should be obvious to the casual observer. You could say it was an epiphany moment. I read Asmodean's murder, and the very first thought that went through my mind was, "Moiraine is alive." When I first read Lord of Chaos I fully expected it to be made common knowledge that Moiraine was still alive. When it didn't happen and Crown of Swords came out I expected the same thing. I've been expecting Moiraine's return with each of the books since then and it was all because of the killing of Asmodean.

 

Well, yeah, I don't think you can convince me it was Moraine, because I don't buy her being in and out like that, but I'm surprised you don't go for Lanfear.

 

Why do you think Moraine more likely than Lanfear?

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Why Moiraine rather than Lanfear? Beyond the gut instinct? Moiraine was prepared for what happened at the docks while Lanfear wasn't. Moiraine set things up precisely so that she would have any possible edge. As a result, while Lanfear thought she was in control, Moiraine was the one that was.

[Jedimuppet]

Why Moiraine rather than Lanfear? Beyond the gut instinct? Moiraine was prepared for what happened at the docks while Lanfear wasn't. Moiraine set things up precisely so that she would have any possible edge. As a result' date=' while Lanfear thought she was in control, Moiraine was the one that was.[/quote']

 

Ok, I agree. But what's that got to do with who killed Asmo? I mean Lanfear could've been bested at the docks and made some wish to hurt LTT that was interpreted as taking his teacher, right?

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

I always had the impression that Moiraine's preparation allowed her to survive and not Lanfear. May not be logical, but nothing about Asmodean's death, or the realm of the Finn's really is. Until Winter's Heart, when Lanfear talks about being held by the Finn's I never had the feeling that she survived going through the doorway even though I was convinced Moiraine had. As a result, only Moiraine would have been a viable candidate for the killing.

[Jedimuppet]

I always had the impression that Moiraine's preparation allowed her to survive and not Lanfear. May not be logical' date=' but nothing about Asmodean's death, or the realm of the Finn's really is. Until Winter's Heart, when Lanfear talks about being held by the Finn's I never had the feeling that she survived going through the doorway even though I was convinced Moiraine had. As a result, only Moiraine would have been a viable candidate for the killing.[/quote']

 

I didn't take her remembering the Finn's captivity in WH to mean she had survived it. I thought that was just Cyndane remembering things from Lanfear...

J

[Jonn_2]

Lanfear wouldn't waste a wish on Asmodean if she had one.

I don't think she got anywhere with the Finns as she is one of the Forsaken. My guess is that she might have asked for the wrong thing, too closely related to the Shadow's intentions and was imprisoned then killed.

 

Here's the heart of why I think it was Moiraine: Like Cwest, my first instinct was that Moiraine was alive and had killed Asmodean in that instant. I believed this because of Moiraine's promise long ago that she would rather see the boys dead than let the Shadow have hold of them or influence on them. That is a strong promise to make and being Aes Sedai, I have no problem seeing her deliver on that promise. In this case she opted to remove the Forsaken rather than kill Rand.

Her aims became clear as she began to suspect Rand of dealing with Lanfear and came to the conclusion of what Lanfear was trying to do by getting Asmodean to teach him to channel. Moiraine set herself on a coarse to remove the Forsaken from Rand's circle.

 

She got rid of Lanfear rather dramatically. She disappeared into the doorway and brokered a deal to get rid of Asmodean, Lanfear's tool for having control of Rand.

 

Motive is the biggest piece of the puzzle for Moiraine and I think she has a far more powerful motive than simply revenge against a traitor. What does one of the Forsaken really gain from killing Asmodean? Surely, if it was one of them, they haven't been shown to have gained anything. As it stands now, Moiraine's cause to rid Rand of the Forsaken in his ear has succeeded. No one dares to approach Rand openly. Aginor had to hide as Dashiva, and even then Rand never trusted Dashiva and was wary of him. Whatever it may have cost Moiraine, she would have made the deal to get rid of Asmodean. If it meant she had to be imprisoned by the FoxFinns, she would have made contingencies to fulfill her cause.

 

As for how she could have done it, Cwest has the general idea and it does sound rather unlikely written out. To me though, the problem of how presents its own opportunities. What we know about the Fox and Snake Finns' realm is rather mysterious itself. I believe their secrets are connected to several of the series key mysteries. The Slayer/Luc mystery, Moiraine's imprisonment, Asmodean's murder, and entering Tel'Aran'Rhiod in the flesh...I believe that they are all connected.

[Inara]

i dont know about moiraine...she warns rand against asmo in the letter she has prepared for him

i dont think she would have done anything other that what 'they' told her to in the rings in rhuindean,

she was also my first thought...but then why mention it at all in the letter?

 

as for the forsaken having nothing to gain...he was teaching rand...making him stronger, a moreformidable enemy, not to mention the elimination of competition for neablis.

 

imo, the forsaken have the most motive here, but i have a feeling this will be a surprise for some people when it is finally confirmed

[Jeppit Groccin]

Removing a possible candidate for Nae'blis? At this point, I'm fairly sure that Asmo turning traitor, even against his will, counts him out of the running.

 

As for logics, the only thing I can really come up with is that it was a woman. Otherwise, Asmo would have felt the gateway being opened where he was headed or Rand would have noticed the odd bit of channeling going on in the palace.

[Inara]

*contains KoD spoiler

 

either that or the TP, which had not yet been restricted to moridin

 

also, there is no mention of goosebumps either

 

has anybody thought that the perp might have Masked the Glow, and walked into the palace in the comfusion, and walked out, in disguise? plz ignore this if it has been addressed already *70 pages is alot of debate*

semi did it, and was only busted thanks to a terangrial which had been made after the breaking

no AOL channeler knows this exists yet

 

i'm not saying semirhage killed him, but she could do it, why not others?

[Jonn_2]

i dont know about moiraine...she warns rand against asmo in the letter she has prepared for him

i dont think she would have done anything other that what 'they' told her to in the rings in rhuindean' date='

she was also my first thought...but then why mention it at all in the letter?

 

as for the forsaken having nothing to gain...he was teaching rand...making him stronger, a moreformidable enemy, not to mention the elimination of competition for neablis.

 

imo, the forsaken have the most motive here, but i have a feeling this will be a surprise for some people when it is finally confirmed[/quote']

 

How could Rand possibly be even stronger that it would make any difference? He defeated Ishamael twice without Asmodean's help. He defeated Aginor without knowing anything about the Power. The only thing that stopped him from defeating Lanfear was his aversion to killing women. Those are three of the strongest Forsaken of their Age. I can't see the benefit of killing Asmodean being weighed against the risk of running into Rand and getting iced.

 

As for competition for naeblis, Asmodean was an underdog and really had next to no chance by his own admission. Finally, if you want to use the angle that it would be to their advantage to kill Asmodean to better their position, where have we seen confirmation of this? Graendal, or anyone, if they have killed Asmodean for the benefit, we haven't seen it or heard of it. If killing Asmodean were son important for becoming naeblis, someone might have mentioned it by now. So, that almost puts the whole motivation for the Forsaken out the door and reduces it to merely petty revenge and at best, brownie points.

 

Also let me mention a fallacy of your assessment of Moiraine. You said that she would only do what "they" said to do in the Rings. 'They' do not exist. The Rings of Rhuidean are similar to the Testing Rings in the White Tower. They are akin to the portal stone worlds, but they instead show you every true possibility of your life's paths. I don't believe that there is a 'they' involved in that. It merely shows you what it shows you and you make your choices based on what you perceive to be the correct path.

 

Also, the letter is a big part of why people are thrown off. I think it was designed to do that. I think it was important that she was thought to be dead. This fact was confirmed in her second letter to Thom. She stresses that she had to appear to be dead and that no one should know her fate except Thom and then Mat when Mat finally asks about the letter. She warned Rand against Asmodean, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't take any action. There is nothing in that letter that said she would do anything beyond go into the doorway. She also mentioned that she did not see anything that happened beyond the doorway. I take it now to mean that she could not see what happened to Rand and Co. after she went through. She probably could only see what happens to her in her possible futures. That would exclude her from knowing anything of what has happened in the time she was trapped in the Finn's realm.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, that's the biggest knock on Moiraine:

...I do not know what happens in the world after, except for one small thing which does not concern you...

 

The loss of the only human being who can possibly teach him anything about the Power and its uses is something that very much concerns Rand. If that "one small thing" had anything to do with Asmo's death, she could not have made that statement. Losing the only person who could possibly teach him anything that might help him be successful during the Final Battle isn't a "small thing" at all.

 

Moiraine is constrained by the Three Oaths. When she says, "I do not know what happens...", she means she has no knowledge whatsoever. Her return will shed no light on this mystery, because she doesn't even know Asmo is dead. The only possible outcomes from her trip to Finnland that are known to her concern her own potential rescue.

[Inara]

that one small thing is the face of her husband

or is it that mat and thom and one other will rescue her

she clearly states she knows both will happen

 

(off topic, sorry)

[Guest cwestervelt]

And' date=' that's the biggest knock on Moiraine:

...I do not know what happens in the world after, except for one small thing which does not concern you...

 

The loss of the only human being who can possibly teach him anything about the Power and its uses is something that very much concerns Rand. If that "one small thing" had anything to do with Asmo's death, she could not have made that statement. Losing the only person who could possibly teach him anything that might help him be successful during the Final Battle isn't a "small thing" at all.

 

Moiraine is constrained by the Three Oaths. When she says, "I do not know what happens...", she means she has no knowledge whatsoever. Her return will shed no light on this mystery, because she doesn't even know Asmo is dead. The only possible outcomes from her trip to Finnland that are known to her concern her own potential rescue.

 

On the contrary, that is a point more in favour of Moiraine than against. You correctly pointed out that she only knew one small thing that was going to happen, and that didn't effect Rand. Unfortunately, like so many others, you still fail to understand what she is saying, and to see any possibilities beyond what she wrote down. Considering that she is not only Aes Sedai, but also Caihrienin nobility, what she didn't say is just as, if not more important than what she did say. She didn't say she didn't know what could happen, only what would happen. That "one small thing" is the only thing that she knew would happen. That doesn't mean she didn't have reason suspect, anticipate or hope that anything else could happen. She saw multiple versions of the future, so that "one small thing" either occurred in every version of the future she saw making it definite, or more likely it was something Min told her about after a viewing, which also would make it definite. She could have seen herself do lots of other things in the future that followed after the door, but, as she didn't know which of 3 possible futures would follow the docks was going to occur, she didn't know they would happen.