Something of an experiment: Success (in my view)

[chemteach1977]

As a newbie here i think i can say with some degree of impartiality that Jonn is intentionally misreading posts by Luckers et. all.

 

First let me say, I have no idea who killed Asmo. Never did. Floored me when RJ said it was "obvious" at the time. Especially because those i considered most obvious at the time are almost completely ruled out (Lanfear) or completely absent since then (Moiraine).

 

Graendal as the killer requires some conjecture but it seems at least plausible to me.

1. Graendal at least appeared willing to participate in a 4-1 attack against Rand with home-field advantage in Illian. (she certainly would be familiar with the intended battle site)

2. She would (possibly) be uninterested in participating in a 2-1 attack against Rand on Rahvin's turf and would rather let Rahvin fight his own battle.

3. Why she would be in Caemlyn is sketchier. Maybe to travel with Rahvin? Maybe to work out a plan within a plan with Rahvin to off Rand, Sam, and Lanfear? More likely for personal reason unknown to Rahvin. All conjecture certainly.

4. Worse is why she is still in Caemlyn after the battle. Unless she planned on tracking down Asmo but then why risk bumping into Rand? She certainly could have travelled away before anyway could find or follow her.

 

Lanfear and MoMo looked like great suspects at the time. Unfortunately Lanfear can be (almost) ruled out. And Moiraine requires even more leaps of logic and conjecture than Graendal.

1. Lanfear has a POV where not only does not mention Asmo (no help at all) but also mentions being "held" by the finns. A BIG stretch to assume she was allowed to kill Asmo and then returned to captivity. That said, Lanfear at least has the strongest motive to kill Asmo. But i see no opportunity.

2. Moiraine is much harder to make a case for or against. The only thing we can assume about MoMo is that she is STILL in finnland awaiting a rescue attempt. Not only does Moiraine have the same problem with opportunity (maybe overcome by a wish but if she got wishes, why is she still there? not sure she is that dumb) BUT Moiraine lacks motive. Mo knew exactly who Asmo was and knew she was going to go bye-bye at the docks. If she felt he needed a dirt-nap, she would have delivered one before confronting Lanfear. Certainly would have been no trouble for her. She was more than capable around Be'Lal.

 

Both Graendal and Moiraine require some conjecture and leaps of logic to be named the killer. And once you are convinced you will see your choice as the only logical one. I am an Asmodean Agnostic. Both positions have flaws and support.

[Luckers]

I rather suspect that this question has gained a certain sacrosanctity that allows thing that should have been dismissed to go on, suggest as the Lanfear and Moirain theories, which is why you see extravagant misreadings. Its almost religious in the contortions of logic being utilized to get by evidence.

 

That said, i agree with all your points. But dont be surprised when others don't.

[chemteach1977]

Just realized after reading all the diverse ramblings about possible suspects and the problems with all of them.

A completely impartial detective asked to examine the scant facts as presented would have only one purely logical conclusion. "Asmodean was not killed in Caemlyn!"

None of the suspects make sense. The ONLY reason we even believe a murder took place is like one little measly sentence. Obviously Asmodean packed up his harp and sauntered off to some island somewhere and is learning to play Jimmy Buffet tunes.

 

There, problem solved

[RobertAlexWillis]

No no no ... its a suicide!

 

Asmodean had been channeling saidin with the taint. It affected him quickly, so when he came around the corner, he saw himself in a mirror, screamed, "You? NO!", shot himself in the mirror with a tiny amount of balefire (all he could muster shielded), and since it was a cuendillar mirror, the balefire reflected back and killed him.

 

The End.

[Jonn]

As a newbie here i think i can say with some degree of impartiality that Jonn is intentionally misreading posts by Luckers et. all.

 

Okay, give examples. What am I misreading? As a newbie you should understand that you can't say something like that without justification. Granted I have been a bit bold of late with criticism of theories, but I don't believe I have been misreading them. I've been cutting to the heart of the argument and attacking points that are trying to be sold.

 

Because I don't necessarily buy them, doesn't particularly mean that I am misreading anything. On the contrary, I check timelines and text to coincide with someone’s point and then post up what I think works out and what doesn't.

 

I will concede that I have been a little aggressive, but that lends to the fact that I have little open support for my ideas. I don't feel that I'm wrong for the most part. I just think it means that there are more people who would rather be oppositional towards what I have to say instead of open.

 

Well essentially, I get aggressive when basically every response to what I am saying is along the lines of "you're delusional" and "you're crazy" and that I'm dead wrong, but none of these accusations are backed up by anything approaching hard fact or evidence.

 

To be fair, even the people who are in agreement about it being Graendal, can't seem to get their 'evidence' to fit with each other's scenarios. Graendal's Favorite thinks it (the murder) was done deliberately with a stalking method, while luckers thinks it was a crime of happenstance with Graendal skulking about and accidentally running into her victim. Some agree closer to GF's scenario, some think luckers is onto something.

 

When I speak against these ideas I often have to smash all of their theories together and refute them as a whole, because there are basic flaws in all of the Graendal scenarios which are universal in her case. I state them again and again, only to have these points ignored or left ineffectually challenged, often with the tag that I'm delusional and stupid to boot.

 

It is annoying. I get called these things, and I defend myself and my points. My points are mostly unrefuted, but people still act like I'm just making this sh*^ up.

 

First let me say, I have no idea who killed Asmo. Never did. Floored me when RJ said it was "obvious" at the time. Especially because those i considered most obvious at the time are almost completely ruled out (Lanfear) or completely absent since then (Moiraine).

 

OK, right here. This is what enrages me. Right here you hit close to what I thought these recent topics concerning Asmodean where about. The first impression and earliest bits of evidence connected to Asmodean's murder. This is what we are talking about, yet almost all of the Graendal theorists have instead constructed a bunch of hypothetical scenarios about what happened with Graendal leading up to Asmodean's death.

 

Fact I'm trying to point out is that Moiraine and Lanfear actually have more open paths of logic than Graendal does given what is in the books.

 

Graendal in fact makes basically a cameo debut in Fires of Heaven. By then we have been dealing with Moiraine since the beginning and Lanfear since book 2. Sammael was even stronger as a candidate than Graendal, because we have motive for him and are more familiar with the way he works.

 

By the time Asmodean sees his killer we as an audience are locked onto what we are familiar with and what is apparent by the scene.

Up until that point, we barely see Graendal and she's mostly in the background of the scenes she shows up in.

Asmodean opens that door and immediately recognizes the person behind it, is shocked but for some reason is even more shocked when that person kills him.

 

Graendal does not fit in that scenario. THE SCENARIO IN THE BOOK.

Asmodean recognizes the person immediately and RJ has more than suggested that we should recognize the killer too. Graendal doesn't fit that because we barely see her in the book and she's not really much of a player until the next book. So, there's a lack of recognition right off the bat with her in the scenario. The other point is that Asmodean was shocked to see this person and he was shocked that this person killed him. Not one paragraph before he opened that door he was thinking to himself about how dangerous his situation was and how every Chosen would be gunning for him.

He opens a door and one of them is standing there...He wouldn't be surprised that his time was up. He wouldn't be puzzled in the least to see one of them, or at who they were.

 

"You? No!"

 

The fact that he made no attempt to defend himself points to a couple of possibilities.

 

First and more on-the-surface obvious is the possibility that he simply had no time.

He's a masterful, skillful person, and not just as a chaneller. He was the one who trained Rand's reflex time in the power, so he is not slow. He had enough time to stop, consider his opposition, and say something. That's plenty of time to react with the power and defend himself. He did not.

 

The second possibility is that he wasn't sure how he should react to this person. This seems the more likely to me. He saw this person and sure he was startled, but he didn't react as if he was in immediate danger. He doesn't strike me as a deer in the headlights kind of guy either, so I doubt he simply froze upon seeing a threat. Even weakened as he was he defended himself against shadowspawn, and that's no mean task. In the Rhuidean sequence he matched Rand stroke for stroke. There's little hesitation in the man when he is confronted by a threat. That is evident. Now...he stops and considers who this person is, but is quite shocked and disturbed to see them. Any one of the Forsaken, he knows to either defend himself or sit there and die. He's not going to sit there and ask a question. "You?"

 

Coupled with the fact that he never defends himself, it leads me to believe that he recognized his attacker, but does not quite know what to do about them.

 

This eliminates the Forsaken for the most part, in my mind. Only Lanfear seems to transcend the paradox because she is alluded to right before he opens the door.

 

I happen to believe that there is a reason for this. The last vision he had of Lanfear was her getting pushed through the redstone doorway by...MOIRAINE.

 

If Lanfear was behind the door, he'd know his doom rather instantly, he'd just be shocked that he was just thinking about her and BOOM, there she is. He wouldn’t question who she was with a "You?" The next most shocking person to see would be Moiraine, because he connects intuitively to his thoughts of Lanfear being dead. he would question why she would be there. He would also be unsure how to deal with her because from my knowledge, I don't believe they actually ever spoke to one another at least for very long, the entire time they were traveling throughout the Waste and CAirhien.

 

Alright, now all of these things I am saying are based on information readily available in the books leading up to Asmodean's death sequence and largely are based on the scene itself.

 

We cannot do the same for Graendal, because she barely has any material for us to base our suspicions on, at that point. Most of the things we know about her are based information obtained after Asmodean's death.

 

The only thing that fits hypothetically about Graendal in the actual scene is the fact that like those of us in the audience, Asmodean doesn't know anything about Graendal or what she'd be doing in that place at that moment.

 

the only thing Graendal theorist have and hold onto tightly as a security blanket, is the fact that she is connected to a plan that failed utterly and was bound to fall apart from the beginning.

 

That was actually rather obviously going to happen because readers aren't dunces. They know the hero is going to survive the trap and are familiar with Lanfear's MO as a manipulator and an ambitious traitor.

 

Ask yourself this: Who actually thought that that plan was actually going to come off? It was quite obvious to me that it would fail as soon as Lanfear was involved in it. By her own design no less. I imagine the forsaken involved knew just as much as we did at that point.

 

Now Graendal theorists make all of this stuff up about how Graendal was planning this or that...all of this unsubstantiated by what we are supposed to know about her at that time. We aren't supposed to know much about her at all. There's next to no material about her in that book.

 

How am I supposed to take a revisionist theory seriously?

 

Call me crazy, but Graendal as an answer is nuts.

 

I'll grant you that evidence presented after the fact helps her case significantly, but on first real impression, there is no way to counter-intuitively know something in reverse.

[Luckers]

Asmodean had been channeling saidin with the taint. It affected him quickly, so when he came around the corner, he saw himself in a mirror, screamed, "You? NO!", shot himself in the mirror with a tiny amount of balefire (all he could muster shielded), and since it was a cuendillar mirror, the balefire reflected back and killed him.

 

Which is fair enough... i mean come on, if you looked like Asmodean, and had to face that in a mirror, wouldn't you wanna balefire yourself?

 

Asmodean was killed in the pantry by Colonel Philips with the candlestick. Thats all there is to it.

[chemteach1977]

I will try one more time. *takes a deep breath*

 

First the "misreading" i was referring to.

 

1. Someone made the point that Graendal's personality makes her unlikely to join just Rahvin against Rand in Caemlyn. This does not mean that whe would be unwilling to join Rahvin, Lanfear, and Sammael against Rand in Illian.

 

2. Graendal says Lanfear and Asmodean are dead. Declarative statement. And she was sure Moggy must be too. Not the same thing. She had convinced herself that Moggy was dead, she did not KNOW they way she did about the other two.

 

3. Not sure how you come to the conclusion that Asmodean had all this time to recognize his attacker and wonder what to do and then wonder why they are killing him. Walks in, blood drains from his face. "You, No!" dead.

 

I am still not joining any faction here but the biggest difficulty for Morraine as killer is motive. She knew who asmo was. (anyone know how she knew that) She knew she was going away and told Rand she understood his choice. She could have killed Asmo at nearly any time before the docks but did not.

 

Why then would she waste a wish to kill Asmo later that same day and apparently not have an extra wish to get home?

 

RJ has said that more evidence has come out to point us toward the killer.

 

1. Morraine: we have learned absolutely nothing new about her except that she is in need of rescue from Mat, Thom, and a third. Hard to see any extra clues there.

 

2. Lanfear: we have learned that she was held in Finnland, got a new body, and lessened in strength. If anything less likely as killer. (she was my fav suspect but i have had to abandon her)

 

3. All other forsaken: express lack of knowledge of Asmo's fate.

 

4. Graendal: who knows? Maybe she knows something maybe not.

[Cybertrolloc]

2. Graendal says Lanfear and Asmodean are dead. Declarative statement. And she was sure Moggy must be too. Not the same thing. She had convinced herself that Moggy was dead' date=' she did not KNOW they way she did about the other two.[/quote']

I don't think we should take this at face value. In that scene, Graendal is trying to psych Sammael into going against Rand, so it's in her interest to play up the threat Rand is to Sammy. It's from Sammy's point of view, when he says he'll kill Asmo and Lanfear when he sees them again his thoughts are he needs to rein in his temper. That's my alibi for Sammael, but I don't think there's much useful about Graendal in that scene.

 

Now Graendal theorists make all of this stuff up about how Graendal was planning this or that...all of this unsubstantiated by what we are supposed to know about her at that time. We aren't supposed to know much about her at all. There's next to no material about her in that book.

Who are the Forsaken Asmo knows something about when Rand asks him? ;)

[Jonn]

I will try one more time. *takes a deep breath*

 

First the "misreading" i was referring to.

 

1. Someone made the point that Graendal's personality makes her unlikely to join just Rahvin against Rand in Caemlyn. This does not mean that whe would be unwilling to join Rahvin, Lanfear, and Sammael against Rand in Illian.

 

Yeah, I got that. I stated my point against the rationale. It wasn't a misread. I know what they're trying to say. I simply don't buy it. It's subtle, but there is a difference.

 

I simply said that if she wasn't willing to back just Rahvin up, what was she doing with him alone in Caemlyn in the first place?

 

I further pointed out how odd it seems to join up in Caemlyn AND THEN go to Illian. Why not everyone just wait in Illian?

 

That points to my hypothesis that everyone wasn't waiting in Caemlyn. There was probably supposed to be a kind of signal and everyone would go to Illian independently. Similarly, later on at the Cleansing, this is what happened. There was a beacon as a signal and most of the Forsaken found their way to Shadar Logoth independently. Surely, something similar could be set up in the instance of an attack on Illian.

 

2. Graendal says Lanfear and Asmodean are dead. Declarative statement. And she was sure Moggy must be too. Not the same thing. She had convinced herself that Moggy was dead, she did not KNOW they way she did about the other two.

 

Again, these are things she would have found out through Demandred in their meeting days before alongside Semirhage and Mesaana. Sammael would have known the same things she told him if he had bothered to go to the meeting. Graendal is a mask behind a mask. Sammael was acting strange, so Graendal figured she was in a weaker position at the mment. She pretty much told him nothing in any case and even if it is something, it's information anyone can come by if their sources are right. Just so happens Graendal's source is Demandred and his was the Dark One.

My point in saying that Moghedien wasn't actually dead is the fact that Graendal in that passage was just feeding Sammael stuff he wanted to hear. What does he gain by her telling him these things? The first two names, everyone else knows that they are out of the picture, except him. Moghedien was the one she could afford to lie about. She disappears and reappears a lot anyways so if it turns out Moghedien is actually alive, Sammael can't be surprised if Graendal had it wrong.

 

3. Not sure how you come to the conclusion that Asmodean had all this time to recognize his attacker and wonder what to do and then wonder why they are killing him. Walks in, blood drains from his face. "You, No!" dead.

 

It comes to me now that you are the one misreading me.

I was saying that Asmodean's reaction was odd, not deliberate. He had enough time to recognize who he was seeing hence "You?"

 

He was on edge the entire time he was wandering the palace. Someone on edge who suddenly sees a threat around the corner usually does one of two things. A man will either run or flinch when startled. The other thing he'll do is lash out. I suppose there is a chance he could freeze, but like I said, he was on edge thinking about his enemies just then and seeing one, I wouldn't guess that he would freeze. He had enough time to recognize them. He had a reaction as well, a physical one. The blood drained from his face. It takes at least a couple of seconds to achieve this effect even just as an expression. So he had time for a physical reaction, time to recognize his attacker and time to utter two words.

 

This is evidence of physical distance between the two. If the killer was right there, very close in proximity, Asmodean would be more likely to lash out or flinch at someone being there abruptly. He couldn;t have been too far away though because he took one step and instantly recognized who he was looking at. His hesitancy indicates his confusion on how to react to seeing this person. His hesitancy is implied by having time to have a physical reaction, the blood draining from his face. Further evidence is given by his first query; "You?"

 

Any Forsaken and he would not question who they were. He would know immediately who they were and why they were standing there.

 

He recognized this person, but he was truly baffled how and or why they were there. He wasn't sure they were a threat, but he was frightened by their appearance.

 

One of the Forsaken there and he would know he was in trouble. He would defend himself. He did have the time to recognize them and have a physical reaction and then say two words. That's plenty of time to react.

There's no need to wonder why they are killing him because that is what he had no time to do. My point is he wasn't sure they were going to kill him until he shouted "No!"

 

That's rather odd because if it truly was one of the Forsaken there, he knew he was dead. No need to ponder why they would kill him because he would already know the reason for a Forsaken.

 

I am still not joining any faction here but the biggest difficulty for Morraine as killer is motive. She knew who asmo was. (anyone know how she knew that) She knew she was going away and told Rand she understood his choice. She could have killed Asmo at nearly any time before the docks but did not.

 

Reread her letter. It says that she thought "Perhaps it was the only way." She went on to say that she could not approve. That's hardly an endorsement that she would let things stand if she had the time to rectify it.

 

As for not killing Asmodean before. It's quite obvious that killing him before would be a tell on her true target at the time. lanfear.

 

Her primary target being Lanfear, Moiriane would not risk altering the scenario in any way that would jeapordize the chances of Lanfear being on the docks that morning.

 

Killing one of Lanfear's hooks into Rand would not serve well to preserve the front she was putting up. Moiraine wasn't going to reveal that she knew who the two Forsaken were until after she was gone and Rand read that letter.

 

Why then would she waste a wish to kill Asmo later that same day and apparently not have an extra wish to get home?

 

Look at it this way. Whether or not she used a wish, we would not know about it until later anyhow. Giving clues about it in detail kind of ruins the surprise of her even returning. There is a dramatic concept in play here called suspense.

 

RJ has said that more evidence has come out to point us toward the killer.

 

1. Morraine: we have learned absolutely nothing new about her except that she is in need of rescue from Mat, Thom, and a third. Hard to see any extra clues there.

 

2. Lanfear: we have learned that she was held in Finnland, got a new body, and lessened in strength. If anything less likely as killer. (she was my fav suspect but i have had to abandon her)

 

You should see that Lanfear's fate was actually a clue towards Moiraine's fate. If Lanfear survived long enough to be held by the Eelfin, then it was a good bet to say that Moiraine was held too, and knowing her, she probably bartered for survival.

 

By Knife of Dreams, that was more than a good bet, it was the likely bet.

 

My personal theory at the moment...Moiraine could have done a few things. One is that she made no bargain. I am discounting this because something tells me that if you make no bargain it won't change the fact that you are stuck in Finnland, and refusal to act according to the ancient arrangements between the three races often ends badly for the human.

 

Another thing she could have done is to make all three wishes. She wished to eliminate Asmodean. She wished for her life and one more thing that I can't speculate on with any surety. Many have speculated that she was stilled going through that doorway. I'm not certain of that really, but the third wish may have been to channel again. Again, I can't be sure about this because I'm not entirely sure she was stilled in the first place.

 

Finally, the thing she may have done was make two wishes and wait on making the third. We may be under the impression that you get all three wishes together on the spot. Nothing says though that you cannot wish for things one at a time. As there is a price involved, I assume that this is negotiable. You may be able to hold off payment until all deeds are granted, but still get what you asked for prior to the third wish being made.

 

A woman as clever and focused as Moiraine, I would not doubt that she could work these nuances and technicalities like Johnnie Cochran.

[Cybertrolloc]

It comes to me now that you are the one misreading me. I was saying that Asmodean's reaction was odd' date=' not deliberate. He had enough time to recognize who he was seeing hence "You?"

 

He was on edge the entire time he was wandering the palace. Someone on edge who suddenly sees a threat around the corner usually does one of two things. A man will either run or flinch when startled. The other thing he'll do is lash out. I suppose there is a chance he could freeze, but like I said, he was on edge thinking about his enemies just then and seeing one, I wouldn't guess that he would freeze. He had enough time to recognize them. He had a reaction as well, a physical one. The blood drained from his face. It takes at least a couple of seconds to achieve this effect even just as an expression. So he had time for a physical reaction, time to recognize his attacker and time to utter two words...

 

Reread her letter. It says that she thought "Perhaps it was the only way." She went on to say that she could not approve. That's hardly an endorsement that she would let things stand if she had the time to rectify it.[/quote']

Asmo is pretty mellow during his walk through the palace in my book :( You really need to share the special edition copy you have ;) In general, that's way too much to pull out of a 3 paragraph section of Jordan's work. For example, because he wrote the blood drained from Asmo's face doesn't mean to assume Asmo lived for the several seconds it takes for the capillaries in his face to constrict from certain neurotransmitters in his brain in you or me ;)

 

Moiraine's letter is the other way around: something like I can't approve wholly but I understand. Perhaps it was the only way. If your book has the reverse...

 

I neither endorse nor disagree with the remainder of your post--this is just what jumped out at me.

[chemteach1977]

That points to my hypothesis that everyone wasn't waiting in Caemlyn. There was probably supposed to be a kind of signal and everyone would go to Illian independently. Similarly, later on at the Cleansing, this is what happened. There was a beacon as a signal and most of the Forsaken found their way to Shadar Logoth independently. Surely, something similar could be set up in the instance of an attack on Illian.

 

The plan would not make much sense if they showed up independantly in Illian. Graendal, Lanfear, and Rahvin were to attack Rand linked. Seems logical to me they would plan to link first before placing themselves in harm's way.

 

At SL the tremendous amount of OP being used acted like a beacon to every channeler in Randland (and possibly beyond) to point right to the spot. The forsaken popped in one by one and we can see what happened to them there. Obviously this turned out to be a very different fight against many channelers with many different *angreal and one big circle might not have been the best choice. Against Rand in Illian a linked circle made sense. So why risk an individual confrontation by travelling alone?

 

We disagree on two major points that leads to very different conclusions.

 

1. The scene in the pantry:

I see a shell-shocked Asmo considering how he hung by a thread while Rand killed off the rest of the forsaken. He opens a door, has just enough time to be surprised and terrified and died. I see nothing in there to indicate he had time to even consider defending himself before he is killed. Being able to defend himself against shadow-spawn does NOT mean he could defend himself against a forsaken (or any other channeler for that matter)

You see a confused Asmo that is surprised but not immediately threatened by who he meets. Then this surprising but not necessarily dangerous person kills him unexpectedly. Correct me if i am wrong on this.

 

2. Personalities:

I do not think Morraine has any reason to want Asmo dead, you do. I think Graendal could be hiding out in Caemlyn, you don't.

 

No way we can convince the other of right or wrong on those points. Just not enough evidence. I really hope RJ will let us off the hook in the next book. So we can find out who is right... and who is dead. err.. wrong.

[Jonn]

It comes to me now that you are the one misreading me. I was saying that Asmodean's reaction was odd, not deliberate. He had enough time to recognize who he was seeing hence "You?"

 

He was on edge the entire time he was wandering the palace. Someone on edge who suddenly sees a threat around the corner usually does one of two things. A man will either run or flinch when startled. The other thing he'll do is lash out. I suppose there is a chance he could freeze, but like I said, he was on edge thinking about his enemies just then and seeing one, I wouldn't guess that he would freeze. He had enough time to recognize them. He had a reaction as well, a physical one. The blood drained from his face. It takes at least a couple of seconds to achieve this effect even just as an expression. So he had time for a physical reaction, time to recognize his attacker and time to utter two words...

 

Reread her letter. It says that she thought "Perhaps it was the only way." She went on to say that she could not approve. That's hardly an endorsement that she would let things stand if she had the time to rectify it.

 

Asmo is pretty mellow during his walk through the palace in my book :( You really need to share the special edition copy you have ;)

 

Uh...well read it again. He was just thinking about how tenuous his situation was and how any forsaken who saw him would kill him on the spot. He was also thinking about Lanfear. This was moments before he was killed. This is in ALL of the versions of the book. Even yours. The only thing that varies is your mindset and you wanting things to be different than what they are.

Asmodean was on edge. He had just shivered at the thought of his own death and then he opened that door.

 

That's not mellow buddy. :roll:

 

In general, that's way too much to pull out of a 3 paragraph section of Jordan's work. For example, because he wrote the blood drained from Asmo's face doesn't mean to assume Asmo lived for the several seconds it takes for the capillaries in his face to constrict from certain neurotransmitters in his brain in you or me ;)

 

You miss the point. He had time to recognize who he was seeing and have a reaction to the recognition.

 

Then he had time to say something.

 

A trained channeler needs less than a second to react and defend themselves. Evidence of this is everywhere. Most pointedly is when Bashere threw a dagger suddenly at Rand's chest. Rand didn't even expect it to come, but he stopped it half way between him and General Bashere.

 

You see recognition of Bashere's intent, and no physical reaction, just the sudden flow of power. How long did that take? Rand defended himself rather simply in less than a few moments. You think Asmodean can't?

 

Point was that when he recognized his killer, he was not sure what to do about them. I remarked that this is an odd reaction, as he was already thinking about being killed by a forsaken at any time.

 

My conclusion is that he ran into someone he didn't expect to see, but didn't know what their intention was. That person gave him no chance to decide and killed him.

 

Moiraine's letter is the other way around: something like I can't approve wholly but I understand. Perhaps it was the only way. If your book has the reverse...

 

No actually, I was closer. She never said she understood. Her words were "Perhaps it was the only way." That's much different from saying she understood. She did say that she could not approve. It was more of a note of forgiveness towards Rand because she knew he was in a tight spot. She certainly didn't want him to be learning from one of the forsaken. She was almost resigned though at that point because there was little she could do to change Rand's behavior.

[Jonn]

That points to my hypothesis that everyone wasn't waiting in Caemlyn. There was probably supposed to be a kind of signal and everyone would go to Illian independently. Similarly, later on at the Cleansing, this is what happened. There was a beacon as a signal and most of the Forsaken found their way to Shadar Logoth independently. Surely, something similar could be set up in the instance of an attack on Illian.

 

The plan would not make much sense if they showed up independantly in Illian. Graendal, Lanfear, and Rahvin were to attack Rand linked. Seems logical to me they would plan to link first before placing themselves in harm's way.

 

At SL the tremendous amount of OP being used acted like a beacon to every channeler in Randland (and possibly beyond) to point right to the spot. The forsaken popped in one by one and we can see what happened to them there. Obviously this turned out to be a very different fight against many channelers with many different *angreal and one big circle might not have been the best choice. Against Rand in Illian a linked circle made sense. So why risk an individual confrontation by travelling alone?

 

Good point. Why commit to something that isn't on? If Graendal was indeed waiting in Caemlyn, why would she stay there even though Lanfear hasn't appeared? Lanfear is Lanfear and if you know anything about her, she's quick to doublecross you. I don't see Graendal putting herself in a situation to get herself caught in the open, even with Rahvin nearby.

 

There's not the greatest amount of trust between these people.

 

Back to the real point. I was saying that it would have been much more effective for them all if they were all waiting in Illian. They didn't do that though.

Lanfear was in Cairhien to make sure Rand took the bait and she got sidetracked at the docks. It's a good bet to say that she was going to be the one to set off the signal to assemble. There's not much sense in guessing Rand will act at any precise time, so meeting in Caemlyn prior to knowing the plan is in motion and on time makes no sense.

 

Lanfear was off in her own terrirory, which is anywhere near Rand. Sammael was waiting in Illian. Rahvin was in Caemlyn because that is his territory. Graendal, it's safe to say was still in her territory.

 

If anyone was going to give the signal it would be Lanfear. She did not give a signal nor was she capable of doing so thanks to Moiraine. No signal means no gathering.

 

So I think it's a stretch to make the assumption that Graendal was waiting in Caemlyn with Rahvin as if they were buddies, when there is no indication that this would be the actual plan.

 

We disagree on two major points that leads to very different conclusions.

 

1. The scene in the pantry:

I see a shell-shocked Asmo considering how he hung by a thread while Rand killed off the rest of the forsaken. He opens a door, has just enough time to be surprised and terrified and died. I see nothing in there to indicate he had time to even consider defending himself before he is killed. Being able to defend himself against shadow-spawn does NOT mean he could defend himself against a forsaken (or any other channeler for that matter)

You see a confused Asmo that is surprised but not immediately threatened by who he meets. Then this surprising but not necessarily dangerous person kills him unexpectedly. Correct me if i am wrong on this.

 

You do have me wrong on this. I never said this person wasn't dangerous or not a threat to him. He was confused about how to react to this person.

 

One of the Forsaken being there wouldn't confuse him or puzzle him. He'd know he was dead or that he should run or defend himself. He wouldn't say something dumb like "You?" either. He'd know who they were and why they were there so there's no reason to question.

 

Thing is, he had time to take a step, recognize the person and to ask a question.

 

An obvious threat to him standing there would not prompt a question. It would prompt him to defend himself. The blood drained from his face though...He was frightened. That's what is confusing. If he was frightened, why didn't he defend himself?

 

Most will explain this away by simply saying he had no time to react, that his death was near instantaneous, but the text offers the contrary. he did react. He asked a question. He took a step. His expression changed. This was his reaction and he had time to do it.

 

We were in his POV remember. He didn't even reach for saidin. He didn't even think about it. That doesn't seem odd to anyone else?

 

He was startled but he didn't reach for saidin.

 

It was like he saw a ghost. What good is it to channel at a ghost?

 

2. Personalities:

I do not think Morraine has any reason to want Asmo dead, you do. I think Graendal could be hiding out in Caemlyn, you don't.

 

She would want to kill any Forsaken near Rand, anyone who was connected to the Shadow. That's her personality. She's not just going to pull the trigger though. She had plans and some targets would have to wait until she had a chance to get to them.

 

If you don't know this about Moiraine, I don't know what to tell you besides read Eye of the World again and what she says to the Two Rivers folk after they leave Taren Ferry and they question her actions.

 

She basically said that she'd rather see them all dead than to let the Shadow have them. She's Aes Sedai, so this is the truth to her. I never forgot that about her character, even though even the people she said it to may have forgotten. Heck, I thought she was kind of a b*+(# in the beginning, especially when she said that. Still, this was one of the key character moments for her, and it's relevant.

 

As for Graendal. I do think she could have been in Caemlyn. It's a possibility. I just think it's unlikely. She could have been anywhere actually. Instead of thinking about it in the context of Asmodean, think about where she would be compared to the rest of the cast.

 

As I said before, we have everyone on screen in the places they should be, their territory, and yet there are those who are making the exception here with Graendal? What for? For the sake of arguing that she could have killed Asmodean? Well, if you want it to work, I guess that works for you. To me though, it's out of her character and even Rahvin's character to allow her to loaf around his palace, waiting on the least reliable ally you could ever imagine having.

 

No way we can convince the other of right or wrong on those points. Just not enough evidence. I really hope RJ will let us off the hook in the next book. So we can find out who is right... and who is dead. err.. wrong.

 

Try to be more optimistic. Presenting arguments to one another may offer different angles and even different answers for us to ponder. Whether they are right is another story.

[Narg]

i cant remeber if moggy was captured at that point or not but if not it was prob her. any other forsaken wold have taken the chance to kill rand .moggys a coward and wouldnt have.

[Luckers]

She was captured and it wasn't her.

[Narg]

what were asmos last words? "YOU?!?" right or something along those lines. that makes it obvios that its a forsaken so weve cut it down to 9 or 10 ive lost track whove rands killed and when.

 

btw whats the score

 

Moiraine has 2 kills (mabe 1 if moiraines alive lanfear prob is too)

green man has 1 kill

mashdar has 1 kill

mysterios straranger has 1 kill

rand has 3 right

i dont know who killed who at the cleansing of the taint battle though . i geass theres no reason to keep score.

[Luckers]

Rand has only killed 2 Forsaken, Rhavin and Ishamael. Someshta killed Balthamel, and Aginor killed himself by drawing too much of the Power. Moiraine killed Be'lal, and took the action that ultimately led to Lanfear's death, whatever that was. Mashadar killed Sammael, Elza killed Osan'gar (his was the only Forsaken death at the cleansing) and we dont know who killed Asmodean.

[Jonn]

what were asmos last words? "YOU?!?" right or something along those lines. that makes it obvios that its a forsaken so weve cut it down to 9 or 10 ive lost track whove rands killed and when.

 

Actually, no. That part is not obvious at all. Him saying you is only definitive of him recognizing his killer. He can recognize many people obviously, and not all of them would be one of the Forsaken.

 

His last words were: "You? No!"

 

He didn't shout, "You?" either. I know it seems nitpicky, but hey, it's important that we are accurate as these words are some of the few clues we are actually given that are of any real substance.

[chemteach1977]

We don't really know if he shouted you? or not. I don't see RJ using double punctuation like some teenager.

 

You?! OH NOES!!!!!

[Bob T Dwarf]

We can be fairly certain that "No!" was uttered with more emphasis than "You?"

 

We also know that nobody other than the killer heard either word.

 

All both words tell us is that he recognized his killer, and that he recognized his imminent death and was unable to prevent it.

[Narg]

also that his killer was sombody HE wouldnt expect.

 

that is if the No! was meant as "it cant be you" and not "oh shit im dead" and who could he have recognised as sum1 who wants to kill him aside from one of the foresaken. mabe a darkfriend.

[Jonn]

also that his killer was sombody HE wouldnt expect.

 

that is if the No! was meant as "it cant be you" and not "oh Bela's Droppings in a Bag! im dead" and who could he have recognised as sum1 who wants to kill him aside from one of the foresaken. mabe a darkfriend.

 

That's what makes it harder to see that it was one of the Forsaken. He was just seconds ago thinking about them wanting to kill him at any moment.

 

As for a darkfriend killing him...very few would be privileged with the information to even recognize Asmodean let alone know of or even be given the task of executing him. Even Black Ajah Aes Sedai are kept at a distance from knowing who is who. It's highly doubtful that a darkfriend would elicit a response from Asmodean. Slayer was all but debunked when in a POV he brags that killing two Black Ajah shielded prisoners was just about his crowning achievement. This occurred after Asmodean's murder, so logically Slayer can be eliminated. He's about as high up an assassin you can find amongst the darkfriend network.

 

Only other high ranked assassin is Shiane, who oddly enough resided until her recent capture, in Caemlyn...hmm...

 

Big question is would Asmodean have recognized her? We're not given that impression. Also, how could she have stowed the body without notice after strolling in and out of the palace? See, not that easy.

 

Besides, the Dark One hadn't given the direct order to kill Asmodean. It was just a given that he would want him dead, but RJ said there was no order from the top. An assassin would have to have gotten their orders from one of the Forsaken. The only one who is confirmed to have known that Rand would surprise attack Caemlyn was Moghedien. And even if one of the Forsaken was on the ball and knew Rand would turn on Rahvin, how would they know Asmodean would come in on the assault? On top of that, how is a non-channeling assassin expected to kill Asmodean, even weakened? Why not just send a grey man?

 

Assassins don't work too well for me in this case.

[Cybertrolloc]

Mashadar killed Sammael...

With some help from Rand's balefire, I'd put it in the Rand column, Moridin's keeping him from running into the trap notwithstanding.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No. Rand had no part in Sam's death, it was all Mashadar.

 

"A Crown of Swords" - A Crown of Swords:

..."Liah." he whispered. And balefire leaped from his hand.

 

For less than a heartbeat, the shape of her still seemed to be there, all in stark blacks and snowy whites, and then she was gone, dead before her agony began.

 

Screaming, Rand swept the balefire down toward the square, the rubble collapsing on itself, swept down death out of time - and let saidin go before the bar of white touched the lake of Mashadar that now rolled across the square, billowing past the Waygate toward rivers of glowing gray that flowed out from another palace on the other side. Sammael had to be dead. He had to be. There had not been time for him to run, no time to weave a gateway, and if he had, Rand would have felt saidin being worked. Sammael was dead, killed by an evil almost as great as himself. Emotion raced across the outside of the Void; Rand wanted to laugh, or perhaps cry. He had come here to kill one of the Forsaken, but instead he had killed a woman he had abandoned here to her fate.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, so while Sammael's attention was focused on Rand, Mashadar got him. Like, when someone is trying to kill you, and you lead them into a trap. It wasn't you, it was the spikes at the bottom of the pit.

 

Rand was responsible for Sammael's presence in Shadar Logoth to begin with, and during the course of their fight, the surrounding area killed him. I still chalk it up to Rand, and, like most of the rest of his Forsaken kills, it was luck, to a large extent.