How and Why the Children of the Light could be a good organization

[Suttree]

1. I dont have source material with me at the time, but I am pretty sure that Ishmael was not around during the initial consolidation of the Randland Hawkwing empire, which would lay the blame for the initial consolidation at the feet of the White Tower. If anyone has the BWB in front of them, please confirm or prove this statement false.

 

2. Travelling had not been rediscovered, correct; however, I already stated why I think the Aes Sedai failed Malkier- the very structure of their organization prioritizes political power within the institution over effective deployment of resources. What do I want them to do? I will lay out how I think the channeling organization in Randland should be as a whole.

 

A. WT/BT could serve as great channeling schools/guild headquarters for the respective female and male channelers (insert- Rand has failed MASSIVELY with the BT). Combined capital somewhere with equal representation hall and leader with single limited term alternating between WT/BT.

 

B. Guild chapters in every major population area to more actively respond to local needs. Set up hospitals, libraries/schools, and rally points for defense. Local government is the most responsive and able to act even with the rediscovered ability to travel. Since Aes Sedai already collect money from multiple nations this will justify those funds received and improve relations with a public that largely distrusts channelers.

 

C. Back to the original post, non-channeling international watchdog group that acts as an IG to report to the general populace on fraud, waste, and abuse of channeling resources to make the channelers accountable to those who give them monetary support.

 

That about sums it up.

 

It is a huge stretch to put the majority of Hawkwings rise and subsequent fall on Bonwhin. He was one of the strongest Taveren ever and was destined for conquest. We know rulers were already threatened by him and as the BWB says

 

In the beginning Hawkwing showed no animus toward Aes Sedai. He apparently approached Tar Valon seeking help in negotiations with his multiple enemies in FY 944, with no result...Whether or not Tar Valon was involved in provocation, the rulers must have seen no choice but to oppose him.

 

With Malkier, even had the changes you recommend been in place I dont see how it would have made a difference. It was a DF coup weakening the armies followed by a massive Shadowspawn invasion. Without travelling that type of sneak attack/betrayal would still have quickly overwhelmed any realistic "rally point" forces they would have had stationed.

 

You have a number of sensible ideas for what the channeling groups should do post TG, I agree almost completely. Where we differ is that although fallen, AS still provide solid service to the world as a whole. Also for you to so flippantly dismiss that they have saved the world multiple times overs is laughable. They did so during the breaking, they did so in the Trolloc Wars, they have stood against every False Dragon and now with TG approaching AS were responsible for all of the initial moves that are now giving the light a chance at victory. To imply they no longer provide a service and only get respect due to threats and an abuse of OP use as you did in your first post is false.

 

To your original watchdog idea. As others have noted there is no possible way for them to enforce/carry out such a thing, nor the need for it. They do not have the power or influence to be a major player in anyway(even in a watchdog capacity) and most importantly they are far more known for their own atrocities and abuse of power. It would be like setting up the SS, Teutonic Knights, or KKK and entrusting them to police a group(that they have an ingrained prejudice against) which has largely helped the world and been a force for good.

[Sharaman]

How is that different from any other country in Randland? Only elsewhere instead of channelling genes being the requirement, you have to be born in a family belonging to the high nobility.

 

I am definitely not denying the fact that the nations in Randland are unfairly run. The least distasteful government I have seen so far is pre-TSR Two Rivers.

The Aiel are pretty egalitarian. More than any other Randland society we've seen.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Maybe it's just me but I always found the Aes Sedai and Children of the Light chapters quite similar. Or rather, Niall's and Elaida's chapters had the same flavor and so did Galad's and Egwene's. Particularly when Galad's talking logic with Asuanawa. It reminded me of when Egwnene did the same with the "black hunters" and Elaida. Galad's less agressive tone fits Egwene's talk with the black hunters but of course the opponent is more similar to Elaida.

 

Also, I noticed the opposing way in which the two groups respectively split and then joined again. The Children were mostly broken apart by the Seanchan, whereas the Aes Sedai split apart on their own (though with a good bit of the Shadow's influence). And then the Children joined once again on their own, whereas the Seanchan had a fairly large part in the Aes Sedai joining together once more (though it was, of course, unintentional).

 

These are good observations, Master Ablar. Though I would say Niall's chapters are less over-the-top than Elaida's, but the similarity is definitely there. Galad and Egwene as well, they are also quite similar as characters

[Suttree]

Maybe it's just me but I always found the Aes Sedai and Children of the Light chapters quite similar. Or rather, Niall's and Elaida's chapters had the same flavor and so did Galad's and Egwene's. Particularly when Galad's talking logic with Asuanawa. It reminded me of when Egwnene did the same with the "black hunters" and Elaida. Galad's less agressive tone fits Egwene's talk with the black hunters but of course the opponent is more similar to Elaida.

 

Also, I noticed the opposing way in which the two groups respectively split and then joined again. The Children were mostly broken apart by the Seanchan, whereas the Aes Sedai split apart on their own (though with a good bit of the Shadow's influence). And then the Children joined once again on their own, whereas the Seanchan had a fairly large part in the Aes Sedai joining together once more (though it was, of course, unintentional).

 

These are good observations, Master Ablar. Though I would say Niall's chapters are less over-the-top than Elaida's, but the similarity is definitely there. Galad and Egwene as well, they are also quite similar as characters

 

Agreed...wonder how much of that can be attributed to Fain's infective influence?

[balefired-ed2]

If by saving the world you mean allowing multiple countries to fail and fall due to internal politicking, yes, I agree with you. Yellows outright fail in their cause by having the majority of their sisters stationed in Tar Valon instead of population centers across the continent for fast response, Greens fail in their cause by not having the majority of their forces stationed along the blight border to support the Borderlanders (who by far are a far more effective force for good than the tower), Browns fail their cause by not disseminating the knowledge of the tower, Whites. . .why?, and "finding causes" at this point in the series still means absolutely jack to me. The only ajah that seems to succeed in their stated goal for the most part is the Red.

 

Also, I am not implying that the Tower is not a force for good. I am outright stating that they abuse the fact that they have abilities above and beyond those of the normal person to enforce their goals and vision of the world upon other cultures. That is undeniable.

 

Curious what are the multiple countries that have been allowed to fail due to internal politicking? We know about Manethern(which was the work of one woman) but what are the others?

 

 

I agree that they aren't nearly what they could be, as I made clear in my post. However you implied they no longer provide services to the world at large which is false. In addition it is a straw man to say that since a Fain influenced, delusional Elaida did things a certain way that it is a statement on how Tar Valon has been run over the years. Why don't we stick to the text which shows a very happy, wealthy populace that have an extremely high quality of life and have benefited significantly from how Tar Valon is run.

 

Reasonably implied in the BwB is the fact that the White Tower deliberately tried to remove Hawkwing from power while he was still king of a middling nation because he crossed the Rubicon. This set off a string of events where multiple nations fell to conquest, a setting up of another, even more repressive empire, two failed conquests, and then the fall of the empire itself (admittedly helped by Ishmael), which led to another 100 years of conflict and the current geopolitical situation in Randland.

 

Also, and I wont blame you if you call this a stretch, the fall of Malkier can be case where Tower power structure failed a nation that supported the Tower. Since the ajahs seem primarily focused on gaining political power within the institution itself instead of pursuing their stated goals they have neglectfully misappropriated valuable assets, the Aes Sedai themselves, and compromised their ability to act effectively.

 

Bonwhin played little role in the over all scheme of things. It is quite clear that Ishamael and the BA were the driving factor and played the two powers against each other.

 

"I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come."

 

As I mentioned before, just because the story has focused on political undercurrents within the WT it is folly to assume that most AS are involved in such. Again every sister's room we have seen shows mementos from a life long lived adventuring outside the tower.

 

In terms of Malkier, it was a DF coup. Travelling had not been been invented and help could not arrive in time. Not sure what else you want them to do in that situation?

 

1. I dont have source material with me at the time, but I am pretty sure that Ishmael was not around during the initial consolidation of the Randland Hawkwing empire, which would lay the blame for the initial consolidation at the feet of the White Tower. If anyone has the BWB in front of them, please confirm or prove this statement false.

 

2. Travelling had not been rediscovered, correct; however, I already stated why I think the Aes Sedai failed Malkier- the very structure of their organization prioritizes political power within the institution over effective deployment of resources. What do I want them to do? I will lay out how I think the channeling organization in Randland should be as a whole.

 

A. WT/BT could serve as great channeling schools/guild headquarters for the respective female and male channelers (insert- Rand has failed MASSIVELY with the BT). Combined capital somewhere with equal representation hall and leader with single limited term alternating between WT/BT.

 

B. Guild chapters in every major population area to more actively respond to local needs. Set up hospitals, libraries/schools, and rally points for defense. Local government is the most responsive and able to act even with the rediscovered ability to travel. Since Aes Sedai already collect money from multiple nations this will justify those funds received and improve relations with a public that largely distrusts channelers.

 

C. Back to the original post, non-channeling international watchdog group that acts as an IG to report to the general populace on fraud, waste, and abuse of channeling resources to make the channelers accountable to those who give them monetary support.

 

That about sums it up.

 

You have a number of sensible ideas for what the channeling groups should do post TG, I agree almost completely. Where we differ is in the fact that AS still provide solid services to the world as a whole. Also for you to so flippantly dismiss the fact that they have saved the world multiple times overs is laughable. They did so during the breaking, they did so in the Trolloc Wars, and now with TG approaching AS were responsible for all of the initial moves are now giving the light a chance at victory. To imply they no longer provide a service and only get respect due to an abuse of one power use as you did in your first post is false. As for Hawkwing it takes some serious mental gymnastics to place the majority of his rise and fall solely at the feet of Bonwhin. That is more of a stretch than blaming them for Malkier.

 

To your original watchdog idea. As others have noted there is no possible way for them to enforce/carry out such a thing, nor the need for it. They do not have the power or influence to be a major player in anyway(even in a watchdog capacity) and most importantly they are far more known for their own atrocities and abuse of power. It would be like setting up the SS, Teutonic Knights, or KKK and entrusting them to police a group(that they have an ingrained prejudice against) which has largely helped the world and been a force for good.

 

1. Saving the world during the breaking would be an action of the Aes Sedai of the 2nd age, who I praised in my first post as having derived their power from service, rather than from threat of force.

 

2. We dont have any conclusive evidence that the Aes Sedai saved the world during the Trolloc Wars. However, we do know that the WT, due to some sort of internal politicking, did not come to the aid of what was considered one of the great nations of the continent and allowed it to fall. I will not say that they played no part, as obviously some channeling support was needed and provided by the WT.

 

3. In addition to how I credit the WT with PART of the blame for the fall of Malkier we run into another aspect of the WT which causes it to be mistrusted by the general populace- dishonesty and concealment of world history. If the Aes Sedai were honest in their failure to protect Malkier, as Moiraine was, it would most likely lead to discussion on better policies toward the Blightborder instead of distrust by a diaspora.

- An aside, the WTs obsession with seeming infallible also enabled Darkfriends to better penetrate the power structure.

 

4. The rise and fall of Hawkwing takes no mental gymnastics. After pulling Tar Valons ass out of the fire, returning home, and disbanding his army he was promptly attacked by three larger, more powerful countries with no provocation at all. Implied in the BWB is that it was largely WT influence that prompted the attacks.

 

5. The initial moves that prepared the world for TG were largely the result of individual Aes Sedai that believed they would be, and were, stilled for the actions that they have taken. In the main series so far the Aes Sedai who have been most effective in championing the cause of the Light are Siuan, Moiraine, and Verin, all of which took considerable risk upon themselves by acting against Tower law and doctrine.

 

6. Trusting the Whitecloaks to act as a watchdog is no less believable than trusting an organization that has hidden history or an organization of men that is best known for going on murderous rampages. The Whitecloaks, by accepting the fact that channerlers are not automatically darkfriends, are experiencing a fundamental change in philosophy, and the name Galad Damodred carries with it considerable weight. I think it would be funny if Galad walked up to the Tower and nailed The 95 Reasons Why Channelers Need to be Watched on the gate.

[Suttree]

1. Saving the world during the breaking would be an action of the Aes Sedai of the 2nd age, who I praised in my first post as having derived their power from service, rather than from threat of force.

 

Didn't the 3rd age start at the breaking?

 

2. We dont have any conclusive evidence that the Aes Sedai saved the world during the Trolloc Wars. However, we do know that the WT, due to some sort of internal politicking, did not come to the aid of what was considered one of the great nations of the continent and allowed it to fall. I will not say that they played no part, as obviously some channeling support was needed and provided by the WT.

 

No conclusive evidence? Willful ignorance doesn't suit you balefired, that is about as close as you can come to Trolling when we are trying to seriously discuss a topic. Why don't you read up on Rashima Kerenmosa and her political and military overtures which saved the world and then tell me again how there is no evidence. Also how did Manetheren fall due to "internal politicking? It was the work of Tetsuan who had a vendetta totally unrelated to the WT and she was punished severely for it.

 

 

3. In addition to how I credit the WT with PART of the blame for the fall of Malkier we run into another aspect of the WT which causes it to be mistrusted by the general populace- dishonesty and concealment of world history. If the Aes Sedai were honest in their failure to protect Malkier, as Moiraine was, it would most likely lead to discussion on better policies toward the Blightborder instead of distrust by a diaspora.

- An aside, the WTs obsession with seeming infallible also enabled Darkfriends to better penetrate the power structure.

 

So you admit they bear no fault in what actually happened. You just don't like their revisionist history which is no different from what the rulers of any nation do.

 

4. The rise and fall of Hawkwing takes no mental gymnastics. After pulling Tar Valons ass out of the fire, returning home, and disbanding his army he was promptly attacked by three larger, more powerful countries with no provocation at all. Implied in the BWB is that it was largely WT influence that prompted the attacks.

 

The invasions were occuring before that

BWB

Shandalle was a small land, and although it had successfully fought off every invasion by its neighbors, it was not in the same rank with the most powerful nations, Basharande, Elsalam, Rhamdashar, Hamarea, Caembarin, and Aldeshar.

 

Hawkwing never disbanded his army and we know that..

 

BWB

sources claim that they were fearful of Hawkwing's reputation as a general, and of the intentions of a man who had not only defied White Tower law within the lands of Tar Valon's rule, but had refused an audience with the Amyrlin.

 

and why are you ignoring my quote provided earlier?

 

In the beginning Hawkwing showed no animus toward Aes Sedai. He apparently approached Tar Valon seeking help in negotiations with his multiple enemies in FY 944, with no result...Whether or not Tar Valon was involved in provocation, the rulers must have seen no choice but to oppose him.

 

Was Bonwhin involved with the politics of the time? Yes of course although all the quotes above more than show the action against him and his rise was inevitable. Why you you would blame the AS for being less successful in politics than Hawkwing is baffling.

 

5. The initial moves that prepared the world for TG were largely the result of individual Aes Sedai that believed they would be, and were, stilled for the actions that they have taken. In the main series so far the Aes Sedai who have been most effective in championing the cause of the Light are Siuan, Moiraine, and Verin, all of which took considerable risk upon themselves by acting against Tower law and doctrine.

 

This was just discussed in another thread at length. You can't cherry pick the good out and not count it towards the AS works. RJ was trying to describe a fallen order(and world), while still showing that it has dedicated members who are on the right track. Without Gitara sending Tigraine to the waste we have no DR. She was the AS advisor to Andor and working with Tamra. Siuan was the Amrylin and coordinated with Moiraine. The will of the Amrylin is the WT. The search initially went underground because of BA involvement. Siuan and Moir didn't know who to trust so they came up with their course of action. The worst is adding Verin to your list. She dedicated her life to routing out the BA in order for the WT to be able to function against the shadow and stand at TG. If you are going to irrationally place all thats wrong at the feet of the WT, you must also accept that it's members have saved the world. Do you think any one of those women mentioned doesn't identify with the WT or as being AS?

 

Don't even really need to touch on the WC question anymore as you have not received one post agreeing that it is a good idea, or that it would even be feasible.

[MasterAblar]

I'm pretty sure the 3rd Age started after the breaking. To me the beginning of the 3rd Age Aes Sedai organisation is when they gather in Tar Valon, or what will become Tar Valon. Before that they're just the remnants of the AoL's Aes Sedai.

[Suttree]

I'm pretty sure the 3rd Age started after the breaking. To me the beginning of the 3rd Age Aes Sedai organisation is when they gather in Tar Valon, or what will become Tar Valon. Before that they're just the remnants of the AoL's Aes Sedai.

 

Hmm wondering where we can find out for sure? I always though the Breaking ended the AoL, hence starting the 3rd age. Nevertheless the AS of the time played a large role in jump starting civilization once again. WT was founded in 98AB I believe. So you are saying the third age started at 1AB?

[MasterAblar]

I'm pretty sure the 3rd Age started after the breaking. To me the beginning of the 3rd Age Aes Sedai organisation is when they gather in Tar Valon, or what will become Tar Valon. Before that they're just the remnants of the AoL's Aes Sedai.

 

Hmm wondering where we can find out for sure? I always though the Breaking ended the AoL, hence starting the 3rd age. Nevertheless the AS of the time played a large role in jump starting civilization once again. WT was founded in 98AB I believe. So you are saying the third age started at 1AB?

 

Well, I looked on seven spokes and if you look at the note on the right about the Toman Calendar, it explains that "AB", in other words "After Breaking", was used to designate the beginning of the 1st Age, which coincides with the death of the last male Aes Sedai. Regardless of whether the Breaking is in the 2nd or 3rd Age, the Aes Sedai organisation of the 2nd Age was not formed until 47AB, and construction on Tar Valon did not begin before 98AB. The actions of Aes Sedai before that are simply those of individual channellers though one could affiliate them with the 2nd Age Aes Sedai, which lost all sense of organisation and structure during the breaking, since despite that loss of structure and organisation, individual channellers probably still claimed to be Aes Sedai of the Hall of Servants.

[Suttree]

I'm pretty sure the 3rd Age started after the breaking. To me the beginning of the 3rd Age Aes Sedai organisation is when they gather in Tar Valon, or what will become Tar Valon. Before that they're just the remnants of the AoL's Aes Sedai.

 

Hmm wondering where we can find out for sure? I always though the Breaking ended the AoL, hence starting the 3rd age. Nevertheless the AS of the time played a large role in jump starting civilization once again. WT was founded in 98AB I believe. So you are saying the third age started at 1AB?

 

Well, I looked on seven spokes and if you look at the note on the right about the Toman Calendar, it explains that "AB", in other words "After Breaking", was used to designate the beginning of the 1st Age, which coincides with the death of the last male Aes Sedai. Regardless of whether the Breaking is in the 2nd or 3rd Age, the Aes Sedai organisation of the 2nd Age was not formed until 47AB, and construction on Tar Valon did not begin before 98AB. The actions of Aes Sedai before that are simply those of individual channellers though one could affiliate them with the 2nd Age Aes Sedai, which lost all sense of organisation and structure during the breaking, since despite that loss of structure and organisation, individual channellers probably still claimed to be Aes Sedai of the Hall of Servants.

 

Ahh had forgotten about that site...pretty cool, thanks mate!

[balefired-ed2]

1. Saving the world during the breaking would be an action of the Aes Sedai of the 2nd age, who I praised in my first post as having derived their power from service, rather than from threat of force.

 

Didn't the 3rd age start at the breaking?

 

2. We dont have any conclusive evidence that the Aes Sedai saved the world during the Trolloc Wars. However, we do know that the WT, due to some sort of internal politicking, did not come to the aid of what was considered one of the great nations of the continent and allowed it to fall. I will not say that they played no part, as obviously some channeling support was needed and provided by the WT.

 

No conclusive evidence? Willful ignorance doesn't suit you balefired, that is about as close as you can come to Trolling when we are trying to seriously discuss a topic. Why don't you read up on Rashima Kerenmosa and her political and military overtures which saved the world and then tell me again how there is no evidence. Also how did Manetheren fall due to "internal politicking? It was the work of Tetsuan who had a vendetta totally unrelated to the WT and she was punished severely for it.

 

When a person has a personal vendetta with someone within the same organization, say. . .Tetsuan being the Amyrlin Seat being jealous of Eldrene, thus preventing any aid to Manetheren, I would say that Manetherens fall came about due to internal politics. In my post above I allowed for some credit to be given to the WT and have just now read of the efforts of Rashima, credit given.

 

Your claim, though, would imply that the WT was solely responsible for saving the world during the Trolloc Wars. To clarify my argument, the WT did play a part, however they were not solely responsible for saving mankind. They were, however, solely responsible in the fall of a nation described as the thorn in the Dark Ones foot.

 

To call someone willfully ignorant and trolling who has allowed for some credit while dismissing a valid argument on a Tower failing as a personal vendetta is hypocritical.

 

 

3. In addition to how I credit the WT with PART of the blame for the fall of Malkier we run into another aspect of the WT which causes it to be mistrusted by the general populace- dishonesty and concealment of world history. If the Aes Sedai were honest in their failure to protect Malkier, as Moiraine was, it would most likely lead to discussion on better policies toward the Blightborder instead of distrust by a diaspora.

- An aside, the WTs obsession with seeming infallible also enabled Darkfriends to better penetrate the power structure.

 

So you admit they bear no fault in what actually happened. You just don't like their revisionist history which is no different from what the rulers of any nation do.

 

No, you are putting words in my mouth. I stand by the fact that if the AS didnt mismanage resources they could have succeeded in their stated goal of fighting the shadow.

 

4. The rise and fall of Hawkwing takes no mental gymnastics. After pulling Tar Valons ass out of the fire, returning home, and disbanding his army he was promptly attacked by three larger, more powerful countries with no provocation at all. Implied in the BWB is that it was largely WT influence that prompted the attacks.

 

The invasions were occuring before that

BWB

Shandalle was a small land, and although it had successfully fought off every invasion by its neighbors, it was not in the same rank with the most powerful nations, Basharande, Elsalam, Rhamdashar, Hamarea, Caembarin, and Aldeshar.

 

Hawkwing never disbanded his army and we know that..

 

Sauce:

Amalasan was taken to Tar Valon for trial and gentling. Hawkwing brought his entire army to camp on the northern banks of the Erinin, defying the will of the Amyrlin Seat, Bonwhin Meraighdin, who ordered Hawkwing to remove his army within five days. Hawkwing was instead called upon to save Tar Valon when two of Amalasan's generals attacked the city with an army of over 100,000 men. Hawkwing won the battle, but in the process had humiliated the Amyrlin Seat, earning her ire.

 

After returning to Shandalle and disbanding his army, Hawkwing discovered three armies from neighbouring Caembarin, Tova and Khodomar had been despatched to destroy him. Hawkwing reformed his troops and in a surprising campaign defeated the forces sent against him.

 

Since you have the BWB in front of you, you either

1. Are being dishonest

2. Made a mistake

 

I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this and say you made an honest mistake.

 

BWB

sources claim that they were fearful of Hawkwing's reputation as a general, and of the intentions of a man who had not only defied White Tower law within the lands of Tar Valon's rule, but had refused an audience with the Amyrlin.

 

and why are you ignoring my quote provided that

 

In the beginning Hawkwing showed no animus toward Aes Sedai. He apparently approached Tar Valon seeking help in negotiations with his multiple enemies in FY 944, with no result...Whether or not Tar Valon was involved in provocation, the rulers must have seen no choice but to oppose him.

 

Heyooo, that war started in 943, before any overture(by the way, do you mind providing that quote) from the WT. Also, why ask for outside help negotiating when you are kicking the crap out of nations that attacked without provocation? That does not make any sense at all.

 

Was Bonwhin involved with the politics of the time? Yes of course although all the quotes above more than show the action against him and his rise was inevitable. Why you you would blame the AS for being less successful in politics than Hawkwing is baffling.

 

The rise of Hawkwing was decidedly not inevitable, and was initiated by AS politics, namely influencing a coordinated attack by three different countries after Hawkwing had left Tar Valon territory. Also, responding to an invasion and being successful at defending ones nation with no allies is not succeeding in politics, it is succeeding in war.

 

5. The initial moves that prepared the world for TG were largely the result of individual Aes Sedai that believed they would be, and were, stilled for the actions that they have taken. In the main series so far the Aes Sedai who have been most effective in championing the cause of the Light are Siuan, Moiraine, and Verin, all of which took considerable risk upon themselves by acting against Tower law and doctrine.

 

This was just discussed in another thread at length. You can't cherry pick the good and not count it towards the AS works. RJ was trying to describe a fallen order(and world), while still showing that it has dedicated members who are on the right track. Without Gitara sending Tigraine to the waste we have no DR. She was the AS advisor to Andor and working with Tamra. Siuan was the Amrylin and coordinated with Moiraine. All AS that have saved the world with their actions. According to you they just bully and abuse. The worst is adding Verin to your list. She dedicated her life to routing out the BA in order for the WT to be able to function against the shadow and stand at TG. If you are going to irrationally place all thats wrong at the feet of the WT, you must also accept that it's members have saved the world. Do you think any one of those women mentioned don't identify with the WT or as being AS?

 

Don't even really need to touch on the WC question anymore as you have not received one post agreeing that it is a good idea, or that it would even be feasible.

 

Cherry picking? How? The good that they caused was achieved in spite of the WT, not because of it. Siuan, even though she was Amyrlin, was conducting herself in defiance of WT law and custom. Some members have helped to save the world. . .by completely going against what the organization as a whole allows. Speaking of willfully ignorant, you did not address my point that the WT obsession with seeming infallible directly aided the spread of the BA. If someone had, oh, I dont know, addressed the very real possibility that darkfriends were in their midst and instituted a policy of. . .reswearing oaths at recurring intervals(good job Egwene!), the need for someone to infiltrate and root out the BA would be unnecessary.

 

The WC have proven that they are effective recruiters, are not now involved in any nations power structure, and are undergoing a philosophical change that while channelers are not necessarily darkfriends, they also do not inherently deserve trust. I suspect you did not address the point as to why the WT and BT should be viewed as trustworthy to the populace as opposed to WC because you have no argument to refute it.

 

Responses in bold

[MasterAblar]

Cherry picking? How? The good that they caused was achieved in spite of the WT, not because of it. Siuan, even though she was Amyrlin, was conducting herself in defiance of WT law and custom. Some members have helped to save the world. . .by completely going against what the organization as a whole allows. Speaking of willfully ignorant, you did not address my point that the WT obsession with seeming infallible directly aided the spread of the BA. If someone had, oh, I dont know, addressed the very real possibility that darkfriends were in their midst and instituted a policy of. . .reswearing oaths at recurring intervals(good job Egwene!), the need for someone to infiltrate and root out the BA would be unnecessary.

 

The WC have proven that they are effective recruiters, are not now involved in any nations power structure, and are undergoing a philosophical change that while channelers are not necessarily darkfriends, they also do not inherently deserve trust. I suspect you did not address the point as to why the WT and BT should be viewed as trustworthy to the populace as opposed to WC because you have no argument to refute it.

 

Responses in bold

 

I don't understand. Why should the BT not be viewed as trustworthy? While there was the taint obviously there was a reason to be wary of the Ashaman. But now that it's gone there is no actual reason to disturst them. Of course that doesn't mean people will trust them since it'll take a long time for people to accept that the taint is gone, but that lack of trust, while understandable, is certainly not justified. The Ashaman, unlike the Aes Sedai and the Children of the Light have not given people a real reason not to trust them.

[balefired-ed2]

I don't understand. Why should the BT not be viewed as trustworthy? While there was the taint obviously there was a reason to be wary of the Ashaman. But now that it's gone there is no actual reason to disturst them. Of course that doesn't mean people will trust them since it'll take a long time for people to accept that the taint is gone, but that lack of trust, while understandable, is certainly not justified. The Ashaman, unlike the Aes Sedai and the Children of the Light have not given people a real reason not to trust them.

 

The fact that we as readers know that the taint is gone will not serve as evidence to those in the world who have seen 3000 years worth of male channelers cause chaos and destruction. The only thing that will correct that is a number of years of experience of no male channelers going mad and killing indiscriminately.

 

Also, the current leader of the BT is a proven liar and murderer(also probable darkfriend), and a likely candidate as his replacement is a proven liar and murderer. Those are not the type of people that inspire trust in an already wary populace.

[MasterAblar]

The fact that we as readers know that the taint is gone will not serve as evidence to those in the world who have seen 3000 years worth of male channelers cause chaos and destruction. The only thing that will correct that is a number of years of experience of no male channelers going mad and killing indiscriminately.

 

Also, the current leader of the BT is a proven liar and murderer(also probable darkfriend), and a likely candidate as his replacement is a proven liar and murderer. Those are not the type of people that inspire trust in an already wary populace.

 

Being trusted and being trustworthy aren't the same though. The Ashaman certainly won't be trusted for some time because of the memory of the taint, but that doesn't mean they deserve that mistrust. People would be acting unfair towards them, though it would be understandable, since of course it would be unreasonable to expect people to get over the memory of the taint so quickly.

 

As for Taim, you have a point, but every nation and organisation has darkfriends in it. Also has Taim actually been proven to have murdered someone, to the general populace? He was in a war, and then he joined Rand, and I don't think it's known to the general populace whether or not he's murdered anyone.

 

As for Logain, I don't see how he is either of those. He was obviously wrong about being the DR, but he supposedly truly believed he was. And I don't see that he murdered anyone. People often blame false dragons for the wars but that doesn't mean they are the ones who declared those wars.

[Suttree]

Your claim, though, would imply that the WT was solely responsible for saving the world during the Trolloc Wars. To clarify my argument, the WT did play a part, however they were not solely responsible for saving mankind. They were, however, solely responsible in the fall of a nation described as the thorn in the Dark Ones foot.

 

To call someone willfully ignorant and trolling who has allowed for some credit while dismissing a valid argument on a Tower failing as a personal vendetta is hypocritical.

 

Apologize for the trolling comment but I think you can see where I was coming from. Your first comment implied there is no evidence that they played a large role in the TW, while blaming the whole WT for Manetheren. The WT was the only channeling resource to balance the dreadlords, not only did they form the Ten Nations in the first place, but Rashima also held it together in it's darkest hour through solid diplomatic maneuvers. Lastly she served as General for the overall forces, and the AS led from the front lines, devising new military tactics culminating in the Battle of Maighande which was the decisive conflict. This was the single most significant victory for the light since the War of the Shadow. It is plainly evident that without the AS the light would have been doomed.

 

As for Manetheren the fact is, it was a personnel vendetta. When the WT found out, Tetsuan was deposed, stripped of staff and stole and stilled. Was it WT policy to insure sure Manetheren, an ally against the shadow fell? By you earlier rationale when you refuse to give credit to individual AS who have done good going against "Tower Doctrine", why then would you do the exact opposite and place the blame on them all in this instance? Talk about hypocritical...

 

Heyooo, that war started in 943, before any overture(by the way, do you mind providing that quote) from the WT.

 

Which quote are you referring to here? Are you trying to say what I provided didn't come from the BWB? I copy and pasted it straight from it. All three of the quotes together are more than enough to show that it was inevitable. I can only assume you are trying to discredit it because it is just about the only way you could be right in your assessment. Sorry mate it comes straight from the source and paints a clear picture of what the other rulers thought. Lastly did you really just call Hawkwing's Wars of Consolidation "defending his own nation" He was a conqueror and one of the strongest Taveren of all time. To imply that without Bonwhin he would have stayed a small time ruler of some backwater nation is pretty funny.

 

Amalasan was taken to Tar Valon for trial and gentling. Hawkwing brought his entire army to camp on the northern banks of the Erinin, defying the will of the Amyrlin Seat, Bonwhin Meraighdin, who ordered Hawkwing to remove his army within five days. Hawkwing was instead called upon to save Tar Valon when two of Amalasan's generals attacked the city with an army of over 100,000 men. Hawkwing won the battle, but in the process had humiliated the Amyrlin Seat, earning her ire.

 

After returning to Shandalle and disbanding his army, Hawkwing discovered three armies from neighbouring Caembarin, Tova and Khodomar had been despatched to destroy him. Hawkwing reformed his troops and in a surprising campaign defeated the forces sent against him.

 

Also what is this source you are using for the above passage? I am using the search function in the BWB and can not find it anywhere? I was mistaken in that he hadn't started to disband some of his soldiers, what the BWB says is he had "begun disbanding his army" but then "reassembled with surprising speed the men who had been sent home".

 

The WC have proven that they are effective recruiters, are not now involved in any nations power structure, and are undergoing a philosophical change that while channelers are not necessarily darkfriends, they also do not inherently deserve trust. I suspect you did not address the point as to why the WT and BT should be viewed as trustworthy to the populace as opposed to WC because you have no argument to refute it.

 

True for the BT, thousands of years of prejudice will take a long time to overcome. Although working together with the AS will gain them instant legitimacy in most countries minds. I didn't comment in terms of AS because it goes without saying. While the vast majority of nations have utilized AS advisors that have worked and helped them for hundreds of years the WC's are viewed with distaste and distrust everywhere except for Amador. Even a country such as Tear that has issues with channelers doesn't support them in the slightest. It is quite simply the facts of how the two groups are viewed in this world, it makes no difference that you personally question why it should be that way.

 

As for Taim, you have a point, but every nation and organisation has darkfriends in it. Also has Taim actually been proven to have murdered someone, to the general populace? He was in a war, and then he joined Rand, and I don't think it's known to the general populace whether or not he's murdered anyone.

 

As for Logain, I don't see how he is either of those. He was obviously wrong about being the DR, but he supposedly truly believed he was. And I don't see that he murdered anyone. People often blame false dragons for the wars but that doesn't mean they are the ones who declared those wars.

 

The murder of all those killed in the False Dragons' wars of conquest can all be laid at their feet. Taim burnt much of Saldea before he was stopped by the visions from Falme and Logain rampaged across Murandy trying to reach Tear. "Half the known world has trembled in the name of Logain" because of the death and destruction he caused.

[MasterAblar]

As for Taim, you have a point, but every nation and organisation has darkfriends in it. Also has Taim actually been proven to have murdered someone, to the general populace? He was in a war, and then he joined Rand, and I don't think it's known to the general populace whether or not he's murdered anyone.

 

As for Logain, I don't see how he is either of those. He was obviously wrong about being the DR, but he supposedly truly believed he was. And I don't see that he murdered anyone. People often blame false dragons for the wars but that doesn't mean they are the ones who declared those wars.

 

The murder of all those killed in the False Dragons' wars of conquest can all be laid at their feet. Taim burnt much of Saldea before he was stopped by the visions from Falme and Logain rampaged across Murandy trying to reach Tear. "Half the known world has trembled in the name of Logain" because of the death and destruction he caused.

 

But we don't even know if they started those wars. We know Logain declared himself DR, but where was it said that he started the war with Ghealdan? And where was it said that he was looking for conquest? Who says the King didn't start the hostilities? And blaming him for the actions of dragonsworn, who acted without his knowledge, would be like blaming Rand for Masema's actions. Sure, Logain was the reason for the war, but that doesn't mean he was the instigator. The Logain in the later books doesn't seem like the type to go out of his way to murder people for no reason. And if he was a murderer, why is he still alive? The WT tower could have hanged him if he is actually "guilty" of more than channlling saidin.

 

Also working with AS won't necessarily give the Ashaman legitimacy. After all it's more likely to look like the Aes Sedai have "tamed" them.

 

Finally, I don't see that it matters that Hawkwing would have attempted conquest even if Bonwhin had not caused the attacks against his country. What matters is that she instigated the war, not Hawkwing. What could or would have happened doesn't have any importance from there on.

[David Selig]

“He deserves no pity,” Galad pronounced. “Have you forgotten what he was, what he did? How many thousands died before he was taken? How many towns were burned? Let him live on as a warning to others.”

 

Gawyn nodded, but reluctantly. “Yet men followed him. Some of those towns were burned after they declared for him.”

Mr Righteousness has spoken, Logain is guilty.

 

Gawyn's statement is telling too. It shows that while some towns were burned by the other side, Logain burn other towns.

 

What the hell was he thinking declaring for the Dragon when he didn't fit the Prophesies at all? Did he have any reason to suspect he might've been born on Dragonmount, for example? Doesn't seem so.

[Suttree]

But we don't even know if they started those wars. We know Logain declared himself DR, but where was it said that he started the war with Ghealdan? And where was it said that he was looking for conquest? Who says the King didn't start the hostilities? And blaming him for the actions of dragonsworn, who acted without his knowledge, would be like blaming Rand for Masema's actions. Sure, Logain was the reason for the war, but that doesn't mean he was the instigator. The Logain in the later books doesn't seem like the type to go out of his way to murder people for no reason. And if he was a murderer, why is he still alive? The WT tower could have hanged him if he is actually "guilty" of more than channlling saidin.

 

We know the AS needed Logain for their plot, that is why they didn't hang him. He gathered an Army and started marching for Tear, that is declaring war. What do you think would have happened when he got there? Would he have asked nicely for callandor? No, the second he gathered his army and started marching he declared war on any country he passed through. Worst of all is he knew he wasn't the DR, it was a war of ego, nothing more. While I agree it seems as if he has changed you can't call him blameless for his early actions. For the record I do blame Rand for many of Masema's actions. He let it continue and go unpunished for far too long.

 

Also working with AS won't necessarily give the Ashaman legitimacy. After all it's more likely to look like the Aes Sedai have "tamed" them.

 

Working with a power that is respected the world over and has access to every court will give them legitimacy. If there were some that thought them "tamed" they would be quickly disabused of that notion.

 

Finally, I don't see that it matters that Hawkwing would have attempted conquest even if Bonwhin had not caused the attacks against his country. What matters is that she instigated the war, not Hawkwing. What could or would have happened doesn't have any importance from there on.

 

But Master, no one knows for certain that she instigated the war. All the quotes provided show there are two sides to the story.

 

1. The invasions had been happening before the War of the False Dragon.

 

BWB

Shandalle was a small land, and although it had successfully fought off every invasion by its neighbors, it was not in the same rank with the most powerful nations, Basharande, Elsalam, Rhamdashar, Hamarea, Caembarin, and Aldeshar.

 

2. There is more than enough evidence to show how the rulers viewed Hawkwing.

BWB

sources claim that they were fearful of Hawkwing's reputation as a general, and of the intentions of a man who had not only defied White Tower law within the lands of Tar Valon's rule, but had refused an audience with the Amyrlin.

 

3. The BWB says flat out whether or not TV was involved the rulers "must have seen no choice but to oppose him".

BWB

In the beginning Hawkwing showed no animus toward Aes Sedai. He apparently approached Tar Valon seeking help in negotiations with his multiple enemies in FY 944, with no result...Whether or not Tar Valon was involved in provocation, the rulers must have seen no choice but to oppose him.

[Kahsm]

If people are so hard done by in TV, they can leave. Pretty sure you couldn't just up and leave Seanchan. So it's pretty hard to fault the AS for how they run one of the most prosperous and populated cities in the world....

 

As for the WC AS comparison. Naill wanted to get rid of rand and fight the DO's armies himself, because he "knew" it wasn't going to be a 1v1 confrontation but another trolloc war. Even Elaida wasn't that nuts, at least she admitted she needed Rand in one way or another...

[FarShainMael]

I had a sudden thought. I'm by no means sure that the WCs generally, and Galad in particular, would survive TG:

 

Galad wrapping himself in white as though putting on his own shroud.

 

This might suggest that in joining the WCs, Galad may have signed his own death warrant. And since he is now their leader, that does not look good for his troops.

[MasterAblar]

I had a sudden thought. I'm by no means sure that the WCs generally, and Galad in particular, would survive TG:

 

Galad wrapping himself in white as though putting on his own shroud.

 

This might suggest that in joining the WCs, Galad may have signed his own death warrant. And since he is now their leader, that does not look good for his troops.

 

How so?

[FarShainMael]

I had a sudden thought. I'm by no means sure that the WCs generally, and Galad in particular, would survive TG:

 

Galad wrapping himself in white as though putting on his own shroud.

 

This might suggest that in joining the WCs, Galad may have signed his own death warrant. And since he is now their leader, that does not look good for his troops.

 

How so?

 

The reference to 'putting on his own shroud'. It's a bit pointed, to my mind.

[MasterAblar]

I had a sudden thought. I'm by no means sure that the WCs generally, and Galad in particular, would survive TG:

 

Galad wrapping himself in white as though putting on his own shroud.

 

This might suggest that in joining the WCs, Galad may have signed his own death warrant. And since he is now their leader, that does not look good for his troops.

 

How so?

 

The reference to 'putting on his own shroud'. It's a bit pointed, to my mind.

 

Sorry, maybe I'm being particulary dense today, but I still don't get how that suggests death. Why would putting on his own shroud mean, or might refer to, death?

[FarShainMael]

Ah. do I see that English is not your first language?

 

A shroud is the cloth that is wrapped around a corpse (dead body) ready for burial:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shroud

[MasterAblar]

Ah. do I see that English is not your first language?

 

A shroud is the cloth that is wrapped around a corpse (dead body) ready for burial:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shroud

 

Oh, that's what you were getting at. Yeah, I didn't know that the actual cloth you wrap a corpse in is called a shroud (though I probably heard it at one point or another). Here I was thinking there must be some deep religious meaning and all (because, you know, I'm utterly ignorant as far as religion goes). Then again there might be some religious meaning in the shroud, so perhaps I wasn't completely wrong.

 

English is sort of my first language (it's the first one I learned for certain), but I didn't learn it at school until I was 10, and even then I was only in American school for 4 years, so more obvious cultural references occasionaly evade me. Still I feel like I should know this.