Compare & contrast WoT & ASoF&I

[Suttree]

Will the mystery of Jon Snow's parents, or Azor Ahai's identity, or why the maester's destroyed the dragons count as little as 'will Egwene become Amrylin' once we get their answers in the next book or so?

 

No because unlike Eggy they are all integral to the overall story. They are overarching mysteries, spanning the entire story, the answers of which will decide the outcome of the series. The Egwene/WT plotline can hardly be considered such unless she has turned in the DR while I wasn't looking and the WT AS are suddenly going to be the key to the LB.

 

None of the ones you've mentioned have been, and those are HARDLY all of the mysteries in WoT I mentioned.

 

Really? Johns parents, the three headed dragon, and the mystery behind the seasons are not more important to the overall story in aSoIaF than Eggy/WT, Elayne's Queenship or Rand's possibly choosing 1 of his 3 women are to the WoT? You can't be serious.

 

The fact that you don't see the difference with the examples above is at the very root of the problem. You can't differentiate between a simple plot line and a mystery, which makes you unable to debate on the topic.

 

Callous or not my approach to your questions was different in that all my answers were TRUE and everyone of yours was FALSE. Do you still try to deny that when the proof is there TWICE for all to see? As for where the answers would be specified in aSoIaF no one knows and that is the point! The entire story is still a mystery and that trickles down to all of the key characters and components. There are many more large scale mysteries to be solved. In contrast the WoT is very straight forward and genre derivative. We were pointed in the right direction, knew most of the major themes, players and goals fairly early on. As Randsc said why do you think everyone was so hung up on Asmo? For the last time, this doesn't make either better and I like both series equally! What it does do is make aSoIaF more suspenseful and more of a mystery. More large scale, over arching mysteries to be solved...that is what the debate is about.

 

I offered a critique some time ago when people were trying to figure out why so many on Westeros made fun of the WoT:

 

Many of us started reading WoT at an early age. Because of this I feel those people overlook some of RJ's flaws as a writer and despite the strength of the over all story, there are flaws to be found. Anyone who is somewhat well read outside the fantasy genre can identify these and yet it doesn't make us love his work any less. To say that it isn't overly descriptive at times or that the interactions of characters aren't childish is ignoring what is written in the books. The WoT is largely derivative and fairly straight forward, it isn't a stretch to guess where the story is going. The themes are not deep and most characters are painted in black and white. Other authors have caught my attention since(Cormac McCarthy, Jonathan Lethem, GRR Martin, Bakker)but RJ will always be one of the first. WoT will always have a special place but I can see why some people might have issues with it. I might have been one of those people if I had come to it later in life.

 

I was a lit major at UCSB and as such feel I am qualified to identify many of the issues raised above. Most tie directly in to what we are discussing. For the last time, the problem seems to be that you are having trouble defining what it is you are actually trying to argue. Your meaning continues to shift and you continuously raise points that do not qualify or are flat out wrong and do little to support what is at the center of the debate.

[Rufae]

Have you or Kadere even read aSoIaF I wonder?

 

No of course not! I never compare books and actually read them. That would be crazy.

 

What it does do is make aSoIaF more suspenseful and more of a mystery. More large scale, over arching mysteries to be solved...that is what the debate is about.

 

More suspensful? I read it and wasn't that much in suspense. I am not on pins and needles wondering whose Jon's parents are. Or who will make up the three headed dragon. Or what are the Others. Or anything else. It just doesn't interest me. In my opinion, GRRM's writing is flat and his story arc is made up as he goes along.

 

I'm glad you get goosebumps thinking about those things, but you just have different interests. Just because you have different tastes, does not mean Wheel is any less of a series than Song. It is simply your preference.

[Suttree]

More suspensful? I read it and wasn't that much in suspense. I am not on pins and needles wondering whose Jon's parents are. Or who will make up the three headed dragon. Or what are the Others. Or anything else. It just doesn't interest me. In my opinion, GRRM's writing is flat and his story arc is made up as he goes along.

 

I'm glad you get goosebumps thinking about those things, but you just have different interests. Just because you have different tastes, does not mean Wheel is any less of a series than Song. It is simply your preference.

 

No but it does mean there are more mysteries tied in to the story of aSoIaF while the WoT is more straight forward. Just in the three examples above you have totally different parts to the story that are all tied together and crucial to the outcome.

 

For the last FREAKING time, stop being so paranoid about people possibly looking down on the WoT. No one has said either one is better except for you and Kadere. I love both series they are just different.

[Hallow]

More suspensful? I read it and wasn't that much in suspense. I am not on pins and needles wondering whose Jon's parents are. Or who will make up the three headed dragon. Or what are the Others. Or anything else. It just doesn't interest me. In my opinion, GRRM's writing is flat and his story arc is made up as he goes along.

 

I'm glad you get goosebumps thinking about those things, but you just have different interests. Just because you have different tastes, does not mean Wheel is any less of a series than Song. It is simply your preference.

 

No but it does mean there are more mysteries tied in to the story of aSoIaF while the WoT is more straight forward. Just in the three examples above you have totally different parts to the story that are all tied together and crucial to the outcome.

 

For the last FREAKING time, stop being so paranoid about people possibly looking down on the WoT. No one has said either one is better except for you and Kadere. I love both series they are just different.

 

I'm not gonna take any sides in this particular debate but I do agree that the people arguing for WoT here needs to take a step back, relax, and realize that Suttree really isn't saying Asoiaf is better than WoT as a whole.

[Kadere]

Really? Johns parents, the three headed dragon, and the mystery behind the seasons are not more important to the overall story in aSoIaF than Eggy/WT, Elayne's Queenship or Rand's 3 women are to the WoT? Are you on crack?

 

I just love how little of my posts you read and then bother to respond to. It's like you find the parts you think you can answer without destroying your argument and just go from there. I've said over and over and over that aren't the only mysteries I've been talking about, but you refuse to respond to the mysteries I said still exist past CoT and ToM.

 

Do you seriously believe that Egwene ruling the White Tower, Elayne ruling Andor and Carihien and Rand choosing his 3 women aren't important to the overall story? Really? Is that your argument?

 

As I already pointed out Jon's parents, the three headed dragon and the seasons are plot points just as much as Egwene becoming Amyrlin, or Rand dying at the Last Battle. They'll be answered in the last two books... You know what I already said all of this like 7 times and you've failed to respond to it, so I'm not going to bother rewriting it.

 

The fact that you don't see the difference with the examples above is at the very root of the problem. You can't differentiate between a simple plot line and a mystery, which makes you unable to debate on the topic.

 

I've actually defined what a mystery is, it's in an earlier post, and YOU have already argued that your mysteries are important crucial mysteries to the overall story, and if they ARE then they'll be answered later in the series. See, I'm repeating myself because you refuse to actually address anything in my posts.

 

Callous or not my approach to your questions was different in that all my answers were true and everyone of yours was false.

 

Really? The Shadowlands aren't far to the East? We still don't know what a Greenseer is? Gosh, the books seem to have those answers. The other questions like who's Azor Ahai, Jon's parents, etc. will be answered in the next two, and if they're not then they're not integral to the story.

 

Do you still try to deny that when the proof is there TWICE for all to see? As for where the answers would be specified in aSoIaF no one knows and that is the point!

 

No one knows how Moridin's link will play out with Rand, or if Rand will die, or where Demandred is, or how the Bore will be sealed, etc. I've already answered this, a LOT. Yes there are mysteries in ASoIaF, no one's saying there isn't, but there are also a ton in WoT. THAT'S the point.

 

The entire story is still a mystery and that trickles down to all of the key characters and components. There are many more large scale mysteries to be solved.

 

There are in WoT too... but again I've already answered this a bunch of times.

 

In contrast the WoT is very straight forward and derivative. We were pointed in the right direction, knew most of the major themes, players and goals very early on.

 

No one's arguing about major themes. We've known most of the major players in ASoIaF since book 1, we've known most of their goals from book 1.

 

As Randsc said why do you think everyone was so hung up on Asmo?

 

Because they didn't know for certain and it's fun coming up with who-done-it scenarios?

 

For the last time, this doesn't make either better and I like both series equally!

 

No one ever refuted that. In fact my point has been that both series have a ton of mysteries.

 

What it does do is make aSoIaF more suspenseful and more of a mystery. More large scale, over arching mysteries to be solved...that is what the debate is about.

 

That is not what the debate is about. The debate is about the fact that there are tons of mysteries in both series. Not which is more suspensful, or more fun to read, or how big the scale is in both (though it's pretty f-ing huge in both series).

 

Many of us started reading WoT at an early age. Because of this I feel those people overlook some of RJ's flaws as a writer and despite the strength of the over all story, there are flaws to be found. Anyone who is somewhat well read outside the fantasy genre can identify these and yet it doesn't make us love his work any less. To say that it isn't overly descriptive at times or that the interactions of characters aren't childish is ignoring what is written in the books. The WoT is largely derivative and fairly straight forward, it isn't a stretch to guess where the story is going. The themes are not deep and most characters are painted in black and white. Other authors have caught my attention since(Cormac McCarthy, Jonathan Lethem, GRR Martin, Bakker)but RJ will always be one of the first. WoT will always have a special place but I can see why some people might have issues with it. I might have been one of those people if I had come to it later in life.

 

Honestly, what does any of this have to do with our debate? It's like you want to be having a debate on the themes, scale, and overarching plot of the series, which is not what this debate is about. The debate is about the fact that there are plenty of mysteries and unanswered questions in both that are answered later in the series as the story needs them answered. Your argument is that WoT doesn't have as many overarching questions throughout it as ASoIaF and my argument is that there are a ton in both. That's the argument, has been since the beginning. If you want to discuss how derivative the stories are in both series we can get into that, but it's NOT what we've been discussing up till now.

 

I was a lit major at UCSB and as such feel I am qualified to identify many of the issues raised above.

 

Ummmm... congratulations? What does you having a lit major have to do with WoT having or not having mysteries in it?

 

Most tie directly in to what we are discussing.

 

No they don't.

 

For the last time, the problem seems to be that you are having trouble defining what it is you are actually trying to argue. Your meaning continues to shift and you continuously raise points that do not qualify or are flat out wrong and do little to support what is at the center of the debate.

 

You must be talking about yourself. I've defined a few times already what it is I'm arguing about. You've changed from "WoT doesn't have as many overarching mysteries in it" to "WoT is a derivative, boring fantasy romp." None of my points have shifted from my stance that both series have a ton of big mysteries in them. None of them are flat out wrong, and all support the debate I'm having. You seem to want to have a totally different discussion then the one we're having.

 

ps: Out on your feet means you've lost and don't even know it. While you're looking for me to throw in the towel, the ref has already counted to ten. Game over.

 

How have I lost when you've lost the focus of the argument and are now off trying to discuss something completely different? You've dropped all of my arguments, and you don't address anything I say about the mysteries in WoT or ASoIaF. You've still failed to prove how ASoIaF runs away with the category of having more mysteries.

 

No but it does mean there are more mysteries tied in to the story of aSoIaF while the WoT is more straight forward. Just in the three examples above you have totally different parts to the story that are all tied together and crucial to the outcome.

 

None of your mysteries tie into the overall outcome of the series more than does Rand die in the Last Battle, what his link is with Moridin, etc. etc. etc. All of the parts your talking about are future plot points which will be gotten to in the last two books, because ASoIaF hasn't gotten far enough yet to give us those answers. I've explained this.

 

For the last FREAKING time, stop being so paranoid about people possibly looking down on the WoT. No one has said either one is better except for you and Kadere. I love both series they are just different.

 

I KNOW I've never said that either series is better. I love both series, like I've said. I'm not paranoid that you're looking down on WoT, I don't really care how much you like it. I'm arguing that both series have a ton of questions and mysteries throughout them. That has always been what I've said.

[Vambram]

Excellent series of posts, Kadere.

Without one single shred of an iota of doubt in my mind, I know that Kadere has made the BEST posts in this thread.

[Suttree]

Really? The Shadowlands aren't far to the East? We still don't know what a Greenseer is? Gosh, the books seem to have those answers. The other questions like who's Azor Ahai, Jon's parents, etc. will be answered in the next two, and if they're not then they're not integral to the story.

 

So what is the Shadowlands importance and what are the Greenseers? Funny you pic the only two that had a shred of truth to them and even those are still off. Do you want me to pull the rest to show how dishonest you've been in your answers?

 

No one's arguing about major themes. We've known most of the major players in ASoIaF since book 1, we've known most of their goals from book 1.

 

In aSoIaF the themes and mysteries are intertwined. As you seem to know the answers please illuminate us, who are the major players, the actual enemy and what are their goals?

 

Ummmm... congratulations? What does you having a lit major have to do with WoT having or not having mysteries in it?

 

It's helpful in being able to identify what actual counts as one which you have been largely unable to do. If you cant see what themes and depth have to do with mysteries in a story the whole thing is hopeless.

 

 

None of your mysteries tie into the overall outcome of the series more than does Rand die in the Last Battle, what his link is with Moridin, etc. etc. etc. All of the parts your talking about are future plot points which will be gotten to in the last two books, because ASoIaF hasn't gotten far enough yet to give us those answers. I've explained this.

 

The fact that you can even name Rand, Moridin and the last battle show how wrong you are. You keep saying it's because aSoIaF is further along but in the WoT how long have we known everything about your first sentence? We can not even begin to scratch the surface on who the savior is(Rand), enemies(DO, Moridin), what the end game is(LB). That's because with only two books to go they are all still mysteries.

 

I KNOW I've never said that either series is better. I love both series, like I've said. I'm not paranoid that you're looking down on WoT, I don't really care how much you like it. I'm arguing that both series have a ton of questions and mysteries throughout them. That has always been what I've said.

 

Except when you tried to put words in my mouth and imply that I was making a judgement, when you said "Or whatever, I guess clearly ASoIaF is better because it still hast 2 books to go rather than 1. Damn Jordan and Sanderson for writing faster. " No but I'm sure you weren't caring at all what I though when you decided to write that?

 

You've still failed to prove how ASoIaF runs away with the category of having more mysteries.

 

Actually myself and others such as

 

Werthead

Much of ASoIaF is presaged on mysteries and questions arising from the backstory and unexplained elements, far moreso than WoT. The biggest controversy regarding a mystery in the history of WoT fandom the identity of a killer who killed a minor supporting character and people argued about it for 17 years before realising it was of absolutely no importance whatsoever. On the other hand, ASoIaF is based on a series of fundamental mysteries about the world and certain characters which will have a huge bearing on the future outcome of the story ...

 

did that in the first few posts, while other chimed in on how obvious it was. I still can't comprehend why you are having a hard time differentiating the types of mysteries mentioned above with what is in the WoT. If you can prove the WoT has as many of these types of mysteries please stop hedging and do so. Your timeline excuses hold no weight. The difference in story arc between the two is negligible at best and I easily discredited many of the things you tried to count as deep mysteries, while showing the ones aSoIaF has. Anyone who looks at both series objectively and has the slightest bit of talent for literary analysis understands that aSoIaF surpasses the WoT in that category. It truly is a shame that you can't join in an honest debate seeing as how you can't even reach the starting point in defining the issue at hand. You keep being dishonest in your approach with flat out lies concerning what we know about aSoIaF, while parroting how does aSoIaF have more mysteries?!?!?,over and over when the answer has been proven long ago and is obvious to the most casual observer.

[Vambram]

Anyone who looks at both series objectively and has the slightest bit of talent for literary analysis understands that aSoIaF surpasses the WoT in that category. It truly is a shame that you can't join in an honest debate seeing as how you can't even reach the starting point in defining the issue at hand. You keep being dishonest in your approach with flat out lies concerning what we know about aSoIaF, while parroting how does aSoIaF have more mysteries?!?!?,over and over when the answer has been proven long ago and is obvious to the most casual observer.

 

 

The only thing that has been proven to anyone reading this thread, Suttree, is that you appear to enjoy insults and personal attacks against Kadere and anyone else who disagrees with you. What I want to know, is who died and made you the god of all literary critics?

You think that your opinions are right, and you think that anyone who disagrees with you in this thread is either stupid, or dishonest.

I don't suppose that you are able to have an honest debate without resorting to personal attacks... are can you do a debate without insults and personal attacks?

[Suttree]

Anyone who looks at both series objectively and has the slightest bit of talent for literary analysis understands that aSoIaF surpasses the WoT in that category. It truly is a shame that you can't join in an honest debate seeing as how you can't even reach the starting point in defining the issue at hand. You keep being dishonest in your approach with flat out lies concerning what we know about aSoIaF, while parroting how does aSoIaF have more mysteries?!?!?,over and over when the answer has been proven long ago and is obvious to the most casual observer.

 

 

The only thing that has been proven to anyone reading this thread, Suttree, is that you appear to enjoy insults and personal attacks against Kadere and anyone else who disagrees with you. What I want to know, is who died and made you the god of all literary critics?

You think that your opinions are right, and you think that anyone who disagrees with you in this thread is either stupid, or dishonest.

I don't suppose that you are able to have an honest debate without resorting to personal attacks... are can you do a debate without insults and personal attacks?

 

How are they insults or personnel attacks if what I am saying is true an who else has disagreed with me that I've insulted?

 

He has lied about facts in aSoIaF and he isn't understanding what actually constitutes the type of mystery we are discussing. If you have something to add to the debate please do so but in the mean time go back and read the posts, other posters agreed I proved my point long ago.

[Kadere]

So what is the Shadowlands importance and what are the Greenseers? Funny you pic the only two that had a shred of truth to them and even those are still off. Do you want me to pull the rest to show how dishonest you've been in your answers?

 

So I wasn't lying then? How am I possibly being dishonest? All I'm saying is that both series have a ton of mysteries in them. At this point I'm totally confused what argument you're making. Please, PLEASE pull all of my answers and show me how dishonest I've been. Go ahead.

 

In aSoIaF the themes and mysteries are intertwined. As you seem to know the answers please illuminate us, who are the major players, the actual enemy and what are their goals?

 

I'm not going to answer these because this is NOT what this debate is about. The debate is about the fact that both series have a ton of mysteries in them. The mysteries and themes of WoT are perfectly intertwined, just as they are in ASoIaF. I'm confused by what direction you're trying to take this discussion.

 

It's helpful in being able to identify what actual counts as one which you have been largely unable to do. If you cant see what themes and depth have to do with mysteries in a story the whole thing is hopeless.

 

The discussion is about the fact that both series have plenty of mysteries in them that are relevant to the story. I'm glad you think you're smarter than the rest of us and are thus entitled to more weight with your arguments, but so far you've skipped most of mine, and now you're just trying to argue that I'm too stupid to know what I'm talking about. Not sure how this helps your argument.

 

The fact that you can even name Rand, Moridin and the last battle show how wrong you are. You keep saying it's because aSoIaF is further along but in the WoT how long have we known everything about your first sentence? We can not even begin to scratch the surface on who the savior is(Rand), enemies(DO, Moridin), what the end game is(LB). That's because with only two books to go they are all still mysteries.

 

How long have we known the answers to if Rand will die at the Last Battle and his link with Moridin playing a role? Ummm... we don't know the answers to that, that's my point. How is this showing how wrong I am? Do you know the answers to these mysteries? Where'd you get that information? I never argued that we knew the savior, or any of that in ASoIaF! Did you even read my posts? I argued that we'll find out in the next book or two, because they're important to the plot. So you're only arguing that ASoIaF's mysteries are better because we're not as far in the story. Of course they're mysteries! They'll be answered in the final act.

 

Except when you tried to put words in my mouth and imply that I was making a judgement, when you said "Or whatever, I guess clearly ASoIaF is better because it still hast 2 books to go rather than 1. Damn Jordan and Sanderson for writing faster. " No but I'm sure you weren't caring at all what I though when you decided to write that?

 

No, I really don't care one bit about how much you like either series. I said that sarcastically because you're argument has been that ASoIaF has more integral mysteries based solely on the fact that we haven't gotten to the point in the story where those answers are present. In WoT we're farther along, well into the final act, so we've been given answers to many of the big mysteries. In ASoIaF we're not, and so we haven't.

 

Actually myself and others such as

 

Werthead

Much of ASoIaF is presaged on mysteries and questions arising from the backstory and unexplained elements, far moreso than WoT. The biggest controversy regarding a mystery in the history of WoT fandom the identity of a killer who killed a minor supporting character and people argued about it for 17 years before realising it was of absolutely no importance whatsoever. On the other hand, ASoIaF is based on a series of fundamental mysteries about the world and certain characters which will have a huge bearing on the future outcome of the story ...

 

did that in the first few posts.

 

I already addressed all of this. And you've still failed to address most of my posts. Yes, Werthead seems to think the only mystery in WoT is Asmodean, but he's wrong, as I've stated time and time again. There are TONS of important mysteries throughout WoT that address it's history, it's characters and their fates, the future outcome of the world, so on and so forth. You continue to act as though the only mysteries in WoT I brought up are Egwene/Tower, Elayne/Queen, and Rand and his three women, but it's simply not true. You've dropped all of the mysteries I've brought up, and at this point it's clear you won't address them, and even if you did you've already lost this argument. Neither your posts, nor Wert's have successfully shown that WoT has no bigger mystery than Asmodean, nor proven then ASoIaF has more integral mysteries.

 

I still can't comprehend why you are having a hard time differentiating the types of mysteries mentioned above with what is in the WoT.

 

You mean the mysteries that Wert brings up like questions about the history, the world, and the characters backstory and fate? WoT has all of that. Most of those mysteries have been answered, or addressed, but they're all there and quite a few still haven't been. I'm not sure why you think they don't exist.

 

Your timeline excuses hold no weight. The difference in story arc between the two is negligible at best and I easily discredited many of the things you tried to count as deep mysteries, while showing the ones aSoIaF has.

 

No, really you haven't. You want to assume the story arc argument is negligible because if you didn't we wouldn't have this discussion. And you've only attempted to discredit a few of my mysteries in WoT, while unsatisfactorily defining what you think a mystery is, to show that you find the already answered mysteries in the series to hold no wait cause they've been answered in the final act of the story.

 

Anyone who looks at both series objectively and has the slightest bit of talent for literary analysis understands that aSoIaF surpasses the WoT in that category. It truly is a shame that you can't join in an honest debate seeing as how you can't even reach the starting point in defining the issue at hand.

 

I've defined it numerous, numerous times, even in this post. Plus, you don't seem to be looking at either series particularly objectively. You're answers to WoT mysteries have been callous, you're argument about math has been insulting to Sam, you've tried to make the discussion about themes and fantasy troupes when that's not what it's been about, you've dropped most of my arguments, and so on. None of this has been particularly objective. And your remarks that I've been drinking WoT kool aid only go to prove it further.

 

You keep being dishonest in your approach with flat out lies concerning what we know about aSoIaF, while parroting how does aSoIaF have more mysteries?!?!?,over and over when the answer has been proven long ago and is obvious to the most casual observer.

 

This discussion is not about the answers to the mysteries in either series, it's been about the fact that both series have a lot of mysteries, that's it. Any answer I gave to the mysteries in ASoIaF is based pretty simply on the books themselves, and none of them have discredited the fact that WoT has plenty of mysteries as well throughout it's series. Plus, any answers to mysteries in ASoIaF don't discount the fact that mysteries in ASoIaF exist, nor how important they are to the series at large, but it doesn't prove that it has more mysteries than WoT. I still don't see how this series runs away with this category.

[Suttree]

Please, PLEASE pull all of my answers and show me how dishonest I've been. Go ahead.

 

And if you point to mysteries like Jon's parentage (sorry that's an internal struggle, not a mystery, and we've had the answer since book one)

 

Jon's parents answered in book one?

 

or Griff/Young Griff (sorry we already have the answer to that too, and it's a plotline)

 

Unless you know who the "Mummers Dragon" & if its actually Prince A, we don't have the answer.

 

Greenseers (been answered)

 

No it hasn't...

 

We've had the answers to these and most of your other "mysteries" for quite some time. Your point, if you have one, is no more bolstered than before.

 

Every answer I gave you was correct.

 

I'm sure if you went to Westeros.org they could give you answers.

 

We've known most of the major players in ASoIaF since book 1, we've known most of their goals from book 1.

 

 

I'm not going to answer these because this is NOT what this debate is about.

 

You're not going to answer them because despite your claims to the contrary they are all mysteries and you can't. "Fundamental mysteries about the world and certain characters which will have a huge bearing on the future outcome of the story"...you know the type that the WoT are lacking.

 

 

PS: How was my math comment insulting to Sam? He said aSoIaF was only half way done. I showed clearly that it wasn't. Proven someone wrong is insulting?

[Kadere]

How many times do I have to say this is not a discussion about the answers to any mysteries in either series? This is a discussion about the FACT that both series contain mysteries, both series contain integral mysteries that are important to the plot, the characters, the world, and history. Both of them. If you want to have a conversation about theories or answers to mysteries in ASoIaF or WoT we can discuss that, but it's not at ALL what I've been talking about this entire time. I just want to make that perfectly clear to start off with.

 

 

Jon's parents answered in book one?

 

Since book 1 the answer to Jon's parents has been VERY STRONGLY hinted at, and each following book has done nothing but continue to confirm the strong implications of the first book. The following two books will confirm or deny who Jon's parents are, like I've said from the beginning.

 

Unless you know who the "Mummers Dragon" & if its actually Prince A, we don't have the answer.

 

 

Griff is Jon Connington, if you don't think we know that, please reread ADwD. ADwD pretty much guarantees Young Griff is Prince A.

This will be confirmed or denied in the subsequent two novels, like I've said from the beginning.

 

Greenseers (been answered)

 

No it hasn't...

 

People with the power to warg into different animals and people and the weirwood. Their importance to the future fight will be determined in the next two novels.

 

We've had the answers to these and most of your other "mysteries" for quite some time. Your point, if you have one, is no more bolstered than before.

 

Which is true.

 

Every answer I gave you was correct.

 

True again.

 

I'm sure if you went to Westeros.org they could give you answers.

 

Probably true.

 

We've known most of the major players in ASoIaF since book 1, we've known most of their goals from book 1.

 

The major players in ASoIaF are Danaerys, Jon Snow, Bran Stark, Rickon Stark, Sansa Stark, Arya Stark, Jamie Lannister, Cersei Lannister, Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark, Brienne, Tyrion Lannister, Theon Greyjoy, Victarion Greyjoy, Asha Greyjoy, Stannis, Mellisandre, Ser Barristan, Arianne Martell, Areo Hotah, Doran Martell, Roose Bolton, Ramsey Bolton, Tywin Lannister, Littlefinger, Varys, etc. All of them have been major players in the series, some have died, but all of them were or are still major players. And we have known most of their goals.

 

 

PS: How was my math comment insulting to Sam? He said aSoIaF was only half way done. I showed clearly that it wasn't. Proven someone wrong is insulting?

 

Saying things like "Or is it that some people skew facts to better support their point? Compare your percentages above to 50% and "almost done" which is what you originally said." and "How is 5 out of 7 back to the middle? There are two books to go compared with one in the WoT. Your point holds zero weight." the way you wrote them, are nothing more than attempts to make Sam feel like an idiot. You knew perfectly well what he was implying when he said ASoIaF is only about half way done, but you had to go and insult him to make your point.

[Suttree]

How many times do I have to say this is not a discussion about the answers to any mysteries in either series? This is a discussion about the FACT that both series contain mysteries,

 

and that changes the fact that you were clearly dishonest with your answers how?

 

The major players in ASoIaF are Danaerys, Jon Snow, Bran Stark, Rickon Stark, Sansa Stark, Arya Stark, Jamie Lannister, Cersei Lannister, Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark, Brienne, Tyrion Lannister, Theon Greyjoy, Victarion Greyjoy, Asha Greyjoy, Stannis, Mellisandre, Ser Barristan, Arianne Martell, Areo Hotah, Doran Martell, Roose Bolton, Ramsey Bolton, Tywin Lannister, Littlefinger, Varys, etc. All of them have been major players in the series, some have died, but all of them were or are still major players. And we have known most of their goals.

 

Are you trying to be funny? You just listed almost every pov character and claim that as an answer. Do you think by players and goals I meant the Iron Throne? Oh wait, the players, the real fight, the heroes, the enemies, the goals...thats right, it's all still a mystery!!! The list itself proves my point that we know very little about what is actually going and proves you are unable to answer who the major players are or what their goals are in the slightest. I mean sure, I guess if you just name EVERYONE youre liable to be right about one or two.

 

Since book 1 the answer to Jon's parents has been VERY STRONGLY hinted at, and each following book has done nothing but continue to confirm the strong implications of the first book. The following two books will confirm or deny who Jon's parents are, like I've said from the beginning.

 

So unlike your claim it wasn't answered in Book 1. The hints have come across the whole story all the way through DwD and the Ashara bits.

 

 

Griff is Jon Connington, if you don't think we know that, please reread ADwD. ADwD pretty much guarantees Young Griff is Prince A. This will be confirmed or denied in the subsequent two novels, like I've said from the beginning.

 

 

So again the answer was false. No one knows if he is a real Price A or a "mummers dragon".

Saying we will get the answers in the next two books does not mean it has already been answered!!! LOL

 

People with the power to warg into different animals and people and the weirwood. Their importance to the future fight will be determined in the next two novels.

 

Wrong answer and again a mention of us finding out in the next two books. I sense a pattern here. So before on all the above you claimed we have the answers, now you say they will be answered in the next two books. Make up your mind, which is it man?

 

Every answer I gave you was correct.

 

Patently false as anyone who can read will be able to tell you.

 

Anyone who has read both series knows your answers I quoted to be dishonest. You can spin it all you want, but we are discussing mysteries. These are mysteries you tried to discredit with false answers, the proof is in the quotes. The fact that you still hold on to lies like "We've had the answers to these and most of your other "mysteries" for quite some time" only implicates your further.

 

Saying things like "Or is it that some people skew facts to better support their point? Compare your percentages above to 50% and "almost done" which is what you originally said."

 

Yes because that is what Sam originally said...I was quoting him.

 

 

Let's try and move this back a bit. For some reason when I asked you to differentiate between "plot lines" and "mysteries" you leaped to some strange conclusion about me saying "plot related mysteries" don't count. Then you went on some tangent about "plot points" which of course are something different entirely. "Much of ASoIaF is presaged on mysteries and questions arising from the backstory and unexplained elements" These things are fundamental to the characters and even the world itself with huge implications for the outcome of the series. If you can prove the WoT has the same please do so. Otherwise this debate has been long over.

 

ps: and no Elayne becoming Queen, Perrin's Wolf Dreams, If Rand will choose 1 or all 3 women, If Egwene will become Amyrlin, Shaidar Haran, Will Rand break the seals etc don't count! Even if you look at something like Moiraine, everyone knew she was held by the A&E and would be rescued. That is EXACTLY what happened. Not really much of a mystery after all was it?

[Kadere]

LOL! This has become hopeless. You keep changing the direction of the conversation, you haven't addressed anything I've written in any of my posts, and you clearly have no interest what-so-ever in understanding what I wrote. There are tons of mysteries in both series, as I've shown. You can talk all you want about major players or Jon's parents, but it's not what this discussion is about. So far I've done nothing but repeat myself for the past 10 odd posts. Because you refuse to support your arguments by responding to mine I just have to call this discussion over. Anyone who reads our discussion will see for themselves what I meant, and what you meant, and they can make up their own minds about who debated this better, but I'm out. Feel free to discuss your ASoIaF theories with someone else.

[Suttree]

LOL! This has become hopeless. You keep changing the direction of the conversation, you haven't addressed anything I've written in any of my posts, and you clearly have no interest what-so-ever in understanding what I wrote. There are tons of mysteries in both series, as I've shown. You can talk all you want about major players or Jon's parents, but it's not what this discussion is about. So far I've done nothing but repeat myself for the past 10 odd posts. Because you refuse to support your arguments by responding to mine I just have to call this discussion over. Anyone who reads our discussion will see for themselves what I meant, and what you meant, and they can make up their own minds about who debated this better, but I'm out. Feel free to discuss your ASoIaF theories with someone else.

 

Funny because the last three or so posts have been you asking me to show you how you were dishonest and then lamely trying to dispute it and crossing yourself up at every turn(We already know the answer/The answer will be explained in the next two books! errmm yeah?). But no worries I wouldn't have been able to respond to that much overwhelming proof concerning your attempts at misdirection either...

 

If you don't understand how the major players, John's parents, azor ahai, seasons etc are exactly the type of mysteries aSoIaF has that WoT doesn't there is nothing to debate. I have shown the mysteries, I have explained how they originate in the backstory and unexplained elements and how they are pertinent to the outcome of the series. You on the other hand have discussed if Elayne will become Queen.

[Werthead]

Once again, if you want to go back to the early and middle books of Wheel of Time, there are countless unknown plot threads in the series, but since Wheel of Time is almost finished, people claim that there is no mysteries? That is being unfair. Song is only halfway through, so it is natural that it would have more unresolved plotlines. Come on.....

 

If we assume the series does not expand beyond 7 books (which admittedly is not certain), then ASoIaF is 5/7ths completed, or if it was WoT we'd currently be at CoT, a lot further down the road. I assume this is why people have suddenly switched to saying WoT as of Book 10, which indeed is mathmatically comparable.

 

We hade two Chapters for Arya in AdwD and three for Bran. In Affc we got zero bran, and about three or four Arya chapters. That had me so frustrated.

 

True, but we missed Perrin in TFoH, we missed Mat in PoD and we missed Rand for most of TDR and CoT. Both series have characters sitting out whole books or indeed several books in a row (though usually less important characters like Rickon and Osha, for example, vs Elyas and Hurin, though Moiraine is a bit more major).

 

What could possibly compare to Egwene blasting Seanchan in the tower, or Rand saving Ilturalde, or Perrin forging his hammer, Verins hour of awesomeness (or in my opinion Aviendhas visions in Rhuidean which gave me a massive blast of negative emotions) and yet i havnt even metioned Rands Rhuidean scenes.

 

I think this is where simple bias will creep in, which is fine. But an ASoIaF fan would point out the duel between Gregor Clegane and the Red Viper; Jaime leaping into the bear pit to rescue Brienne one-handed; Tyrion's plans resulting in the Blackwater River blowing up and taking most of Stannis' fleet with it; Daenerys destroying the House of the Undying and later liberating the slaves of Astapor (or indeed hatching her dragons in the first place); or Robb Stark's victory at the Whispering Wood.

 

Or in the latest book:

 

 

Wyman Manderly baking three Freys in a pie and feeding them to their own kinsmen. Or the Golden Company storming ashore on Cape Wrath and capturing four castles in a blitzkrieg campaign.

 

 

Mysteries like: Is Rand the Dragon Reborn, why does Rand have Lews Therin's voices in his head, will Perrin ever learn to control the wolf inside him and master the wolf dream, is the future Aviendha saw going to take place, who is the daughter of the nine moons, will Egwene become the Amyrlin Seat, will she unite the Tower, what's Taim up to, where's Logain, where's Demandred, will Rand gain the Aiel, will Perrin choose the falcon or the hawk, how will Rand bind the Nine Moons to him, will the Seanchan stay or leave, what's Machin Shin's relationship to Mashadar, what started the Breaking, why won't the Seals hold, how will Rand patch the Bore, will Rand choose one of his girls or all three, will Elayne gain the thrones of both Andor and Cairhein, will Rand die at the last battle, what role will his connection to Moridin play, how will Mat rescue Moiraine from the Tower, what role will Moiraine play with Rand, how will Cadsuane teach Rand how to cry and laugh again, etc. etc. etc. etc.

 

I know someone else addressed this, but several of those questions were answered in the same book they were asked, if not before. That's like saying that "What is the secret Jon Arryn died for?" still an ongoing ASoIaF mystery, when it was answered in the first book.

 

Others.... Frost Zombies

 

Nope. We don't know what the Others are. Are they a nonhuman species? Are they humans or other species transformed in some fashion? Where have they been for 8,000 years? What is their relationship to R'hllor and to the unbalanced seasons? What are their motivations? Do they want to destroy the world in a mindless fashion or are negotiations with them possible?

 

They raise frost zombies (wights) to serve them, but the Others/White Walkers are not frost zombies themselves.

 

Red Priests.... Male Priests of Asshai

 

Priests and priestesses of R'hllor, the fire god. Melisandre is from Asshai, but we do not know to what degree R'hllor-worship is widespread in Asshai or the relationship between them.

 

Shadow Lands..... Lands to the East

 

But what is casting the Shadow over Asshai and the surrounding lands? Why is the Shadow one of the other 'hinges of the world' (other than the Wall)? What is the relationship between the Shadow and dragons and magic? Is there a relationship between the Shadow and the unbalanced seasons?

 

Doom.... Fall of Valaryia

 

Yes, but was the Doom a natural volcanic event or an event triggered on purpose, as the Faceless Men claim? How did the Doom manage to destroy every dragon in the Valyrian Freehold but not the dragons and their eggs on Dragonstone? How did the Doom also result in the eradication of magic in the western world?

 

And a fresh mystery from ADWD:

 

 

Is there a relationship between the catastrophe at Hardhome and the Doom?

 

 

Faceless Men..... assassins,

 

Shapeshifting assassins who claim to have caused the Doom of Valyria and have infiltrated an agent into Westeros for undisclosed reasons (who is now in the Citadel in Oldtown, up to something with the maesters and now in unwitting contact with Samwell Tarly). What is their story?

 

Bloodraven (not sure)

 

An overall mystery, but one that is primarily of concern post-ADWD (so a new mystery and thus not applicable yet) and to people who've read the prequel novellas (who are in the minority of ASoIaF fans so far).

 

Weirwoods..... old god trees with faces, Greenseers.... magic folk

 

More info in ADWD, but pre-ADWD these are substantial mysteries. In fact, post-ADWD there's more questions raised about the greenseers than answered.

 

Ashara Dayne..... wife of Mr. Dayne

 

Ashara Dayne is identified as one of the possible mothers of Jon Snow in the first book. She is deeply immersed in the Jon's parentage mystery, and ADWD casts signficiant complications on her role in events.

 

Sphinx (not sure), Griff (not sure)

 

New characters from Books 4 and 5. Griff isn't a mystery, as that is answered within a few chapters of him showing up, and the Sphinx's true identity is obvious from information provided in Book 4 itself, so I wouldn't call either of these mysteries (though the Sphinx's motivations and plans remain obscure).

 

Euron..... Crazy preacher dude

 

Euron is Balon Greyjoy's brother, becomes the new king of the Iron Islands in Book 4. He isn't really a mystery either, to be honest (though the horn he brings back from Valyria is, and we get some more info on it in ADWD).

 

Children of Forest..... druids.

 

No. Though I think the Children are pretty much just what they are reported to be, a race of elf-like beings who grew few in number over the years and vanished. We get some more info on this in Book 5 and I don't think the Children are going to be a huge series-defining mystery.

 

He does have point.... does anyone know the fundamental rules of the magic in Song? The fundamental rules in Wheel are clear, while I can't think of any given by GRRM. Maybe he will expand on it later?

 

GRRM has indicated he will provide no such rules, as he feels it takes away the mystery. Magic in the ASoIaF world is a force people can try to harness to their own ends but is unpredictable and highly dangerous even to those 'trained' to use it (like the red priests, Faceless Men, shadowbinders etc), not to mention it seems to be dependent on certain factors (the season, the proximity of the user to certain magical areas like the Wall, the Shadow, possibly the ruins of Valyria etc, as well as whether dragons are around or not). There is no set of rules similar to the One Power...but interestingly Book 5 suggests that some things that characters believe are magical are in fact explicable by other natural phenomena (not necessarily natural phenomena from our world) and these non-magical processes will have more of an explanation.

 

 

In particular, the weirwoods appear to be a form of organic or bio-technology of some advanced kind, and Bran gets a pretty straightforward lesson in how to tap their powers.

 

 

P.S> Magic wasn't dead for thousands of years. It oly was fading due to the death of the last dragon.... roughly 300 years before booktime?

 

Since the Doom of Valyria, 400 years earlier, though some magical after-effects lingered to the death of the last dragon 150 years before the books. Magic in the West seems to have been erratic since the war against the Others 8,000 years earlier though.

[Suttree]

New characters from Books 4 and 5. Griff isn't a mystery, as that is answered within a few chapters of him showing up, and the Sphinx's true identity is obvious from information provided in Book 4 itself, so I wouldn't call either of these mysteries (though the Sphinx's motivations and plans remain obscure).

 

Sure you would know much more than me on the topic but are we sure it's actually Prince A? I've seen other possibilities mentioned as to who it could be...

[Werthead]

Sure you would know much more than me on the topic but are we sure it's actually Prince A? I've seen other possibilities mentioned as to who it could be...

 

'Griff' is:

 

 

Jon Connington, that's very clear :)

 

 

You mean 'Young Griff', who is:

 

 

Claiming to be and claimed to be Aegon VI Targaryen. Whether he is really Aegon VI or an imposter set up by Varys is still up for grabs, but he does have the Targaryen eyes and hair. If he is a fake it'd have to be fairly - meaning implausibly - elaborate, to find one of the Targaryens' bastard offspring in the Free Cities with a child the EXACT right age and with the Targaryen eyes and colouring and so on.

 

[Suttree]

Sure you would know much more than me on the topic but are we sure it's actually Prince A? I've seen other possibilities mentioned as to who it could be...

 

'Griff' is:

 

 

Jon Connington, that's very clear :)

 

 

You mean 'Young Griff', who is:

 

 

Claiming to be and claimed to be Aegon VI Targaryen. Whether he is really Aegon VI or an imposter set up by Varys is still up for grabs, but he does have the Targaryen eyes and hair. If he is a fake it'd have to be fairly - meaning implausibly - elaborate, to find one of the Targaryens' bastard offspring in the Free Cities with a child the EXACT right age and with the Targaryen eyes and colouring and so on.

 

 

Although Tyrion seemed to change his mind on the eye color, some of the Daynes were said to have similar eyes and don't people in Lyse? almost have the hair JK thanks for pointing me in the right direction on that one Wert!

[Red2111]

first point i'd liek to address, please keep spoilers or content from DwD in the spoiler tag guys.

 

 

guys if your going to compare which series is best souly on unsolved mysteries then WoT is at a disadvantage because we're on the last book which is more about wrapping up plot points and concluding the main battle "Rand vs DO" more than presenting more mysteries. it's concluding the series as a whole so it goes without saying that all but a hand full of mysteries have been answered.

 

while ASoF&I has two books in the least to still be written and is on the build up to the wrap up. which means there will be many more mysteries left to be solved. to compare better, you'd have to take WoT at a %completed point at the same poitn ASoF&I is currently at and discuss the mysteries still unsolved in the WoT series.

 

 

another thing about the "Who killed Asmo" debate in WoT. you cannot discredit this mystery because it "doesn't further the plot". really it's what fans decided to focus on, so it is an important mystery tot he series that went on for a good % of the book. imo, i compare this to the "who are Jon's parents" debate in ASoF&I which is more of a side mystery rather than a plot driving mystery imo.

 

also, to address the "lie" that has been pointed out by other in this thread concerning Jon's parentage. comming from a pure book stand point, in the books it's made clear by many character from the 1st book that Jon is Ned's bastard; i've yet to read a PoV of a character which questions Jon's parentage in the books. in this sense what has been said by Kadere isn't a lie and more depends on what side of the fan debate you stand on. so both sides are neither lies or fact any more than the previous claims as to "i know who killed asmo" were when the debate was still ongoing on this site.

[Suttree]

guys if your going to compare which series is best souly on unsolved mysteries then WoT is at a disadvantage because we're on the last book which is more about wrapping up plot points and concluding the main battle "Rand vs DO" more than presenting more mysteries. it's concluding the series as a whole so it goes without saying that all but a hand full of mysteries have been answered.

 

No one is making an argument on which book is better. The whole debate started whith a poster putting forth:

 

Mystery Uhm.... don't see much mystery in ASoIaF. One or two things but that is all.

 

to which Wert responded:

 

Much of ASoIaF is presaged on mysteries and questions arising from the backstory and unexplained elements, far moreso than WoT. The biggest controversy regarding a mystery in the history of WoT fandom the identity of a killer who killed a minor supporting character and people argued about it for 17 years before realising it was of absolutely no importance whatsoever. On the other hand, ASoIaF is based on a series of fundamental mysteries about the world and certain characters which will have a huge bearing on the future outcome of the story (several of which came to fruition in the most recent book).

 

It has nothing to do with unsolved mysteries. It is the the type of mysteries bolded above integral to aSoIaF that the Wot does not have. We are comparing & contrasting the level of mystery in the two series.

 

also, to address the "lie" that has been pointed out by other in this thread concerning Jon's parentage. comming from a pure book stand point, in the books it's made clear by many character from the 1st book that Jon is Ned's bastard; i've yet to read a PoV of a character which questions Jon's parentage in the books. in this sense what has been said by Kadere isn't a lie and more depends on what side of the fan debate you stand on. so both sides are neither lies or fact any more than the previous claims as to "i know who killed asmo" were when the debate was still ongoing on this site.

 

So all the diff misdirection on who the mother is doesn't count as characters questioning his parentage? Everyone from fishwives to noble women have been put forth. This is a deep rooted mystery, integral to the story. To say it was answered in the first book in an attempt to discredit the mystery, is if not an outright lie, very disingenuous to say the least.

[Red2111]

Suttree, the debate about Jon's parents comes from two sides.

 

either people claim he's Ned's Bastard (which it states multiple times in the books) or theres people who claim he's Lyanna & Rhegar's son. the main debate over Jon's parents here on Dm has never been about which woman Ned bedded but rather whether Jon is a Targ bastard or a Stark Bastard.

 

in this sense i stand by my oringal statement that Kadere was not lieing (as he says it states in GoT that Jon is Ned's bastard), as you claimed he was.

 

 

reguardless of how this conversation started, it's degraded into a "ASoF&I" has more mysteries, no WoT has just as many mysterys debate. i'm merely pointing out that by saying one series has more mysteries still unsolved doesn't mean that it's better than the other because both books aren't the same % complete atm.

 

 

 

that said, we can move this debate on from which book has more mysteries and compare other aspects of the storys; such as the political aspects and character developement.

[Suttree]

Suttree, the debate about Jon's parents comes from two sides.

 

either people claim he's Ned's Bastard (which it states multiple times in the books) or theres people who claim he's Lyanna & Rhegar's son. the main debate over Jon's parents here on Dm has never been about which woman Ned bedded but rather whether Jon is a Targ bastard or a Stark Bastard.

 

So your argument is that there is no mystery he is Ned's bastard and that has been proven in the books definitively? Because if that isn't the case and it comes from "two sides" the mystery has not been answered. He is either Ned's bastard(which has been quite clearly called into doubt) or he is L & R' son. Either way it is still a mystery regardless of who he turns out to be. It is exactly the type of mystery Mr. Martin is so good at, characters don't outright discuss it like other series, you need to piece together subtle clues to even get that it is going on. We most certainly have not "had the answers" since Book 1. Why would you even try to defend such a thing?

[Red2111]

you've accused Kadere of lieing, because he claims the issue of Jon's parentage has been solved and has been listed in the books. i'm merely pointing out that it depends on what side of the debate he is taking Ned's Bastard or Targ Bastard for Jon's blood line and that there was no lie because it does state in the books, many times infact, that Ned is Jon's father. seeing as Kadere considers this matter confirmed says to me he's of the belief that there is no "red herring" as others state and so there is no mystery to him (and to others who believe that Jon is Ned's bastard)

 

 

i'm not debating whether this is or isnt a mystery; obviously because fans are debating it, it's a mystery to them; more so i'm just pointing out to you that there was no lie on Kadere's part.

 

 

now it's just a matter of arguement as to which theory you personally subscribe to, which is a personal preference rather than fact surrounding the series. much like the discussions surrounding "Who killed Asmo"

 

 

i will give you that there is some question as to who Jon's mother is if you hold the belief that he is Ned's Bastard. but in the book, there has yet to be a character who questions whether ned is Jon's father, thsi is of no doubt to all the characters in the books who have remarked on it from book one and even in DwD. whether this is the truth, or even the side of the debate i subscribe to remains to be seen. it could be GRRM pulls a fast one on us all and makes him Roberts Bastard. knowing how much Martin likes his twists ... i woudln't put it past him

[Suttree]

it could be GRRM pulls a fast one on us all and makes him Roberts Bastard. knowing how much Martin likes his twists ... i woudln't put it past him

 

Now that would be hilarious...