what happened to Narishma

[Nighttrain]

It was said though I can't quote that the man to remove callindor the second time would be the dragons replacement or the next dragon or some such. Well we know that narishma retrieved it for Rand. What happened to him? It was a profecy I believe. Any thoughts?

[Luckers]

The prophecy says that the man who draws Callandor out of the Heart will 'follow after'. We don't know what this means--it could already be fulfilled in that Narishma is one of Rand's followers, and its significance being that it meant Rand knew he could trust to send someone else to retrieve Callandor, or it could mean Narishma will follow Rand somewhere... Shayol Ghoul perhaps.

[herid]

The prophecy says that the man who draws Callandor out of the Heart will 'follow after'. We don't know what this means--it could already be fulfilled in that Narishma is one of Rand's followers, and its significance being that it meant Rand knew he could trust to send someone else to retrieve Callandor, or it could mean Narishma will follow Rand somewhere... Shayol Ghoul perhaps.

Another possibility is that the prophecy does not mean Narishma at all. First, somebody could have drawn Callandor before Narishma. The wards on it were tampered with. Moridin is the most likely suspect there. Or the whole thing including "thrusting into the heart" might refer to something that has not happened yet.

[Randzamon]

The prophecy says that the man who draws Callandor out of the Heart will 'follow after'. We don't know what this means--it could already be fulfilled in that Narishma is one of Rand's followers, and its significance being that it meant Rand knew he could trust to send someone else to retrieve Callandor, or it could mean Narishma will follow Rand somewhere... Shayol Ghoul perhaps.

Another possibility is that the prophecy does not mean Narishma at all. First, somebody could have drawn Callandor before Narishma. The wards on it were tampered with. Moridin is the most likely suspect there. Or the whole thing including "thrusting into the heart" might refer to something that has not happened yet.

Moridin did shurely NOT take Callandor before Narishma. One of the most powerful sa'angreal in the hands of the Naeblis would probably make a big change concerning the LB. Why should Moridin take it and then return it, so that Narishma can get it for Rand? That makes absolutely NO sense.

[OptimusPrime]

My memory is hazy and Im not at home for the next few days. Could someone please remind me about the ward on Callandor being tampered with? Didnt Rand change it somehow? Or did Narishma tell him something? And isnt it just possible that the ward wasnt working the same for the same reason the White Towers wards were going dodgy?

 

Short version, is it definite that someone tampered with the weave on Callandor?

[herid]

The prophecy says that the man who draws Callandor out of the Heart will 'follow after'. We don't know what this means--it could already be fulfilled in that Narishma is one of Rand's followers, and its significance being that it meant Rand knew he could trust to send someone else to retrieve Callandor, or it could mean Narishma will follow Rand somewhere... Shayol Ghoul perhaps.

Another possibility is that the prophecy does not mean Narishma at all. First, somebody could have drawn Callandor before Narishma. The wards on it were tampered with. Moridin is the most likely suspect there. Or the whole thing including "thrusting into the heart" might refer to something that has not happened yet.

Moridin did shurely NOT take Callandor before Narishma. One of the most powerful sa'angreal in the hands of the Naeblis would probably make a big change concerning the LB. Why should Moridin take it and then return it, so that Narishma can get it for Rand? That makes absolutely NO sense.

 

You have absolutely NO idea what Moridin's plans are so such statements are completely pointless. he has definite plans we know nothing about.

My memory is hazy and Im not at home for the next few days. Could someone please remind me about the ward on Callandor being tampered with? Didnt Rand change it somehow? Or did Narishma tell him something? And isnt it just possible that the ward wasnt working the same for the same reason the White Towers wards were going dodgy?

 

Short version, is it definite that someone tampered with the weave on Callandor?

Narishma told Rand that he was almost killed getting Callandor because Rand didn't tell me of all the wards he put on it.

 

 

Springing from the cot, Rand snatched the bundle before Narishma could proffer it. “Did anyone see you?” he demanded. “What took you so long? I expected you last night!”

 

“It took a while to figure out what I had to do,” Narishma replied in a flat voice. “You didn’t tell me everything. You nearly killed me.”

 

That was ridiculous. Rand had told him everything he needed to know. He was sure of it. There was no point to trusting the man as far as he had, only to have him die and ruin everything.

-tPoD, Ch 21

 

 

Putting something like this in makes no sense unless the wards were really tampered with.

[OptimusPrime]

The prophecy says that the man who draws Callandor out of the Heart will 'follow after'. We don't know what this means--it could already be fulfilled in that Narishma is one of Rand's followers, and its significance being that it meant Rand knew he could trust to send someone else to retrieve Callandor, or it could mean Narishma will follow Rand somewhere... Shayol Ghoul perhaps.

Another possibility is that the prophecy does not mean Narishma at all. First, somebody could have drawn Callandor before Narishma. The wards on it were tampered with. Moridin is the most likely suspect there. Or the whole thing including "thrusting into the heart" might refer to something that has not happened yet.

Moridin did shurely NOT take Callandor before Narishma. One of the most powerful sa'angreal in the hands of the Naeblis would probably make a big change concerning the LB. Why should Moridin take it and then return it, so that Narishma can get it for Rand? That makes absolutely NO sense.

 

You have absolutely NO idea what Moridin's plans are so such statements are completely pointless. he has definite plans we know nothing about.

My memory is hazy and Im not at home for the next few days. Could someone please remind me about the ward on Callandor being tampered with? Didnt Rand change it somehow? Or did Narishma tell him something? And isnt it just possible that the ward wasnt working the same for the same reason the White Towers wards were going dodgy?

 

Short version, is it definite that someone tampered with the weave on Callandor?

Narishma told Rand that he was almost killed getting Callandor because Rand didn't tell me of all the wards he put on it.

 

 

Springing from the cot, Rand snatched the bundle before Narishma could proffer it. “Did anyone see you?” he demanded. “What took you so long? I expected you last night!”

 

“It took a while to figure out what I had to do,” Narishma replied in a flat voice. “You didn’t tell me everything. You nearly killed me.”

 

That was ridiculous. Rand had told him everything he needed to know. He was sure of it. There was no point to trusting the man as far as he had, only to have him die and ruin everything.

-tPoD, Ch 21

 

 

Putting something like this in makes no sense unless the wards were really tampered with.

 

Thanks herid. I wonder then... could he have added a True Power weave to the ward?

[herid]

 

Thanks herid. I wonder then... could he have added a True Power weave to the ward?

That's an interesting idea. I never thought of that. It's of course really hard to say anything given how little info we have on the subject. If it was Moridin he certainly could have. There might even still be an invisible TP ward of undetermined purpose on Callandor then although this is really pure speculation at this point. I consider this unlikely. Rand would have likely seen it in ToM when he took Callandor to the meeting with the borderlanders as he still seems to have access to TP.

 

It's not even clear that it was Moridin. It could have been Demandred. Mesaana mentions that he likely snooped in the Great Hold in Tear.

 

 

Automatically Mesaana dropped into a lecturing tone. “The White Tower now has guards and wards on their strongrooms, inside and out, plus they count everything four times each day. The Great Hold in the Stone of Tear is also warded, with a nasty thing that would have held me fast had I tried to pass through or untie it. I don’t think it can be untied except by whoever wove it, and until then it is a trap for any other woman who can channel.”

 

“A dusty jumble of useless rubbish, so I’ve heard,” Demandred said in dismissal. “The Tairens gathered anything with even a rumored connection to the Power.”

 

Mesaana suspected he had more than hearsay to go on. She also suspected there was a trap for men woven around the Great Hold, too, or Demandred would have had his sa’angreal and launched himself at Rand al’Thor long since. “No doubt there are some in Cairhien and Rhuidean, but even if you do not walk right into al’Thor, both are full of women who can channel.”

-LoC, Prologue

 

But this quote also suggests that if Demandred could get around the wards he'd likely just grab Callandor and attack Rand although Mesaana could be wrong about this. Moridin is certainly unlikely to do any such thing in similar situation as he's been playing games with Rand for a long time and has some definite ideas about when they should fight if it actually comes to that. Also, terez suggested that Moridin might be the only one who could get past the wards without Rand's help because of the link between them. The link might allow him to see the invisible wards that Rand made that other male channelers would not see. Rand used those to ward Callandor when he went to Far Madding and he likely used something similar when Callandor was left in Tear. Also, Moridin was likely in the area at some point because he probably used the doorway in Tear to get out of the Finnland when he went there to fetch Lanfear.

[Manel Rochaid]

In terms of Demandred, I don't think he'd have been able to resist going up against Rand if he had Callandor, or at least taking out a few fellow Forsaken. I forget, but isn't the meeting where Moridin tells the other Chosen they can no longer follow their own plans later on (KoD?)? So if Demandred had access to a massively powerful Ter'angreal I'm sure we would have seen it in use by then. So basically I agree with Herid there on Demandred

 

I dont think Moridin would have simply tampered with the weaves though, he probably knows Callandor is connected to the Last Battle somehow, and the Dark Ones plan was to turn Rand before he got the chance to fight there.

 

I think that scene may have just been meant to show Rand becoming more paranoid. He mentions trusting Narishma enough to send him after Callandor, however the statement implies Rand definitely left something out, what if it was actually something important?

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah I assumed Moridin can bypass Rand-specific wards as well, but then again I think that would work both ways so if Moridin had left something on Callandor or anywhere I doubt they would be specifically to stop Rand. I think if Moridin did mess with the ward it would have been to encourage Rand to be the one to come back for it, not to harm him when he did.

 

For some reason I imagine True Power weaves being detectable with the Power in the same way inverted weaves are. The reason I say that is because Fains traps are not Power-based and even then in TGH while Rand undid the traps he described it as "cutting through cobwebs made of steel." So Im not sure if Narishma bypassing the weave outrules the True Power being involved.

 

That being said, how would Fain be as a suspect? Is he capable of tampering with weaves, do we think?

 

Demandred, if he done it Id say it would be a straightforward attempt to hurt Rand.

 

One could look uber far into it and speculate that Moridin upgraded Rands ward to a "Rand only" ward, and the possibility of Narishma having a Talent for bypassing weaves, allowing him to get through person-specifics. But that is 100% speculation.

 

As for the "following after" thing... I wonder... if it means Narishma will become Ta'veren when Rand is done.

[herid]

In terms of Demandred, I don't think he'd have been able to resist going up against Rand if he had Callandor, or at least taking out a few fellow Forsaken. I forget, but isn't the meeting where Moridin tells the other Chosen they can no longer follow their own plans later on (KoD?)? So if Demandred had access to a massively powerful Ter'angreal I'm sure we would have seen it in use by then. So basically I agree with Herid there on Demandred

 

I dont think Moridin would have simply tampered with the weaves though, he probably knows Callandor is connected to the Last Battle somehow, and the Dark Ones plan was to turn Rand before he got the chance to fight there.

It's not really clear what the nature of the tampering was and what it was intended to do. It might also simply be that he took Callandor (hereby fulfilling the prophecy about the one who follows after) did something with it and then put it back. Doing that would require disarming and recreating the wards and he may not have recreated them exactly as they were originally woven. The wards were apparently quite complicated. This is of course pure speculation at this point but I don't see why he wouldn't just tamper with the wards in some unknown fashion even if he didn't plan on getting Rand killed as the result.

 

I think that scene may have just been meant to show Rand becoming more paranoid. He mentions trusting Narishma enough to send him after Callandor, however the statement implies Rand definitely left something out, what if it was actually something important?

I've never seen this idea put forward and the issue has been discussed many times. If the scene was intended to show Rand's paranoia then I'd say it failed utterly. IMO the obvious impression on the reader is that the wards were tampered with or maybe that Narishma was not skilled enough to follow Rand's instructions. I can't view it any other way myself.

[Southpaw89]

and we can't really assume the person who went before Narishma was intending to grab Callandor right? It may have just been messed around with to trap Rand or whoever when they went back in.

[nwash_10]

In terms of Demandred, I don't think he'd have been able to resist going up against Rand if he had Callandor, or at least taking out a few fellow Forsaken. I forget, but isn't the meeting where Moridin tells the other Chosen they can no longer follow their own plans later on (KoD?)? So if Demandred had access to a massively powerful Ter'angreal I'm sure we would have seen it in use by then. So basically I agree with Herid there on Demandred

 

I dont think Moridin would have simply tampered with the weaves though, he probably knows Callandor is connected to the Last Battle somehow, and the Dark Ones plan was to turn Rand before he got the chance to fight there.

It's not really clear what the nature of the tampering was and what it was intended to do. It might also simply be that he took Callandor (hereby fulfilling the prophecy about the one who follows after) did something with it and then put it back. Doing that would require disarming and recreating the wards and he may not have recreated them exactly as they were originally woven. The wards were apparently quite complicated. This is of course pure speculation at this point but I don't see why he wouldn't just tamper with the wards in some unknown fashion even if he didn't plan on getting Rand killed as the result.

 

I think that scene may have just been meant to show Rand becoming more paranoid. He mentions trusting Narishma enough to send him after Callandor, however the statement implies Rand definitely left something out, what if it was actually something important?

I've never seen this idea put forward and the issue has been discussed many times. If the scene was intended to show Rand's paranoia then I'd say it failed utterly. IMO the obvious impression on the reader is that the wards were tampered with or maybe that Narishma was not skilled enough to follow Rand's instructions. I can't view it any other way myself.

 

I actually agree with the idea that the scene was there to show Rand's continued paranoid state. Throughout all of PoD, Rand is screaming about killing any man who can channel. The entire book is basically a pysch eval on how crazy Rand has become. Just look at his attempt to kill all the Seanchan with Callandor. That's obviously went well. Every time I've read that scene I have assumed it was to show that Rand is having more and more trouble separating himself from Lews Therin (or his crazy ass paranoid tainted side, if you'd prefer).

Has anyone ever asked RJ/BS about this? To be honest, although I visit the forums often, I don't recall a consensus that the weaves on Callandor were obviously tampered with, in fact this is one of the few times I've seen it discussed.

And just because Rand thinks it wouldn't make sense to not tell Narishman all of the weaves doesn't mean that we can believe his pov 100%. remember we've seen how crazy Rands becoming. It's like reading a Fain pov. He may think that his motives are logical but the dude is batshit crazy. And I don't think that anyone takes his pov's as being 100% accurate. But hey, I could be wrong.

[Randzamon]

a

[Randzamon]

I actually agree with the idea that the scene was there to show Rand's continued paranoid state. Throughout all of PoD, Rand is screaming about killing any man who can channel. The entire book is basically a pysch eval on how crazy Rand has become. Just look at his attempt to kill all the Seanchan with Callandor. That's obviously went well. Every time I've read that scene I have assumed it was to show that Rand is having more and more trouble separating himself from Lews Therin (or his crazy ass paranoid tainted side, if you'd prefer).

Has anyone ever asked RJ/BS about this? To be honest, although I visit the forums often, I don't recall a consensus that the weaves on Callandor were obviously tampered with, in fact this is one of the few times I've seen it discussed.

And just because Rand thinks it wouldn't make sense to not tell Narishman all of the weaves doesn't mean that we can believe his pov 100%. remember we've seen how crazy Rands becoming. It's like reading a Fain pov. He may think that his motives are logical but the dude is batshit crazy. And I don't think that anyone takes his pov's as being 100% accurate. But hey, I could be wrong.

I absolutely agree, with your suggestion. But to be sure, there is only BS to ask or it maybe explained in aMoL.

[OptimusPrime]

I actually agree with the idea that the scene was there to show Rand's continued paranoid state. Throughout all of PoD, Rand is screaming about killing any man who can channel. The entire book is basically a pysch eval on how crazy Rand has become. Just look at his attempt to kill all the Seanchan with Callandor. That's obviously went well. Every time I've read that scene I have assumed it was to show that Rand is having more and more trouble separating himself from Lews Therin (or his crazy ass paranoid tainted side, if you'd prefer).

Has anyone ever asked RJ/BS about this? To be honest, although I visit the forums often, I don't recall a consensus that the weaves on Callandor were obviously tampered with, in fact this is one of the few times I've seen it discussed.

And just because Rand thinks it wouldn't make sense to not tell Narishman all of the weaves doesn't mean that we can believe his pov 100%. remember we've seen how crazy Rands becoming. It's like reading a Fain pov. He may think that his motives are logical but the dude is batshit crazy. And I don't think that anyone takes his pov's as being 100% accurate. But hey, I could be wrong.

I absolutely agree, with your suggestion. But to be sure, there is only BS to ask or it maybe explained in aMoL.

 

Yeah, I think what some of us (myself included) forget is that Rand talks out loud when he doesnt realize it sometimes. He mutters to himself and such like. Plus the conversation he had with Narishma prior to sending him happened offscreen IIRC. I think thats what throws me, I generally assume that if Rand makes a mistake he makes it onscreen, but the point is that we see him do it onscreen therefore he probably does stuff offscreen as well. We've seen his thoughts be fairly coherent at times and yet we dont really know if hes muttering or not, unless we get a reaction from someone else.

 

Maybe Rand thought he was talking to Narishma but actually said it in his head or something. Who knows?

 

I wouldnt mind if Narishma had been 13x13ed by now, thatd be interesting.

[herid]

 

 

I actually agree with the idea that the scene was there to show Rand's continued paranoid state. Throughout all of PoD, Rand is screaming about killing any man who can channel. The entire book is basically a pysch eval on how crazy Rand has become. Just look at his attempt to kill all the Seanchan with Callandor. That's obviously went well. Every time I've read that scene I have assumed it was to show that Rand is having more and more trouble separating himself from Lews Therin (or his crazy ass paranoid tainted side, if you'd prefer).

Has anyone ever asked RJ/BS about this? To be honest, although I visit the forums often, I don't recall a consensus that the weaves on Callandor were obviously tampered with, in fact this is one of the few times I've seen it discussed.

And just because Rand thinks it wouldn't make sense to not tell Narishman all of the weaves doesn't mean that we can believe his pov 100%. remember we've seen how crazy Rands becoming. It's like reading a Fain pov. He may think that his motives are logical but the dude is batshit crazy. And I don't think that anyone takes his pov's as being 100% accurate. But hey, I could be wrong.

We've never seen Rand to do anything crazy like that. not once, not even close. If you have an example please do give it. This would be particularly true here because he'd certainly be careful when giving instructions about Callandor of all things.

Sorry guys but this explanation is completely out of the question IMO.

[dutchman1789]

I always thought that one of the Forsaken had put extra wards on callandor to catch Rand off guard when he went back to get it.

[michael.clinton83]

I always thought that one of the Forsaken had put extra wards on callandor to catch Rand off guard when he went back to get it.

 

This is what I had assumed as well. I also considered that this could have just been a side effect of Narishma's partial madness from pre-cleansing, as this was before Nynaeve could heal such effects. I figured it's possible that maybe he just 'thought' there were things Rand hadn't mentioned, much like other Asha'man 'thought' fades were following them and shadows were trying to overwhelm them while they channeled. My guess is if he had actually sprung any one of Rand's wards he wasn't prepared for, he wouldn't have made it back with Callandor. Rand was extremely confident that Callandor was safe, so to think Narishma could get around unexpected wards that the Forsaken could not is far-fetched to me.

[Randzamon]

I always thought that one of the Forsaken had put extra wards on callandor to catch Rand off guard when he went back to get it.

 

This is what I had assumed as well. I also considered that this could have just been a side effect of Narishma's partial madness from pre-cleansing, as this was before Nynaeve could heal such effects. I figured it's possible that maybe he just 'thought' there were things Rand hadn't mentioned, much like other Asha'man 'thought' fades were following them and shadows were trying to overwhelm them while they channeled. My guess is if he had actually sprung any one of Rand's wards he wasn't prepared for, he wouldn't have made it back with Callandor. Rand was extremely confident that Callandor was safe, so to think Narishma could get around unexpected wards that the Forsaken could not is far-fetched to me.

 

EXACTLY!!!

[SheaththeSword]

The line always struck me as significant, but I wasn't sure if either it was Rand or Narishma that had made the mistake. I never saw anything like the wards being messed with there. It seems like a large extrapolation based on too little evidence.

 

I thought that Rand had either actually forgotten something important in his madness (unlikely), or, had given the absolute bare minimum of info leaving Narishy to work things out from what Rand said (more likely), due to his paranoia he was trying and failing to really trust him.

[Sharaman]

Or somebody who couldn't undo Rand's wards may have added extra wards himself in the hopes that Rand would find it impossible to retrieve the sword?

[OptimusPrime]

I always thought that one of the Forsaken had put extra wards on callandor to catch Rand off guard when he went back to get it.

 

This is what I had assumed as well. I also considered that this could have just been a side effect of Narishma's partial madness from pre-cleansing, as this was before Nynaeve could heal such effects. I figured it's possible that maybe he just 'thought' there were things Rand hadn't mentioned, much like other Asha'man 'thought' fades were following them and shadows were trying to overwhelm them while they channeled. My guess is if he had actually sprung any one of Rand's wards he wasn't prepared for, he wouldn't have made it back with Callandor. Rand was extremely confident that Callandor was safe, so to think Narishma could get around unexpected wards that the Forsaken could not is far-fetched to me.

 

EXACTLY!!!

 

See this is what makes me think theres something we dont know about Narishma. I cant think of anything else that would explain it other than him having a Talent for wards or getting past them or some such.

[Yahna]

I personally think, like others, that this scene is there to illustrate just how paranoid and crazy Rand is becoming--he starts down his road to crazy fairly early on, after all, and this is another illustration of his not trusting other male channelers. He can't even be sure of what he really told Narishma in that scene, despite everything.

[Sharaman]

BTW can we assume that Nynaeve did heal flynn and narishma's madness before she pushed off to the WT? No further reference after she assured Rand she would.