What are the Forsaken fighting for?

[Entreri]

I tend to see DO's/Mori's relationship akin to Vader/Siddeous... Just me?

 

Vader was tricked and manipulated. He was also an emo which made it easy for Siddeous to punch his buttons and play with his emotions. Thinking wasn't Anakin's strong point. Ishmael, on the other hand, was a calm intellectual who followed his own logic to its natural conclusion. Why should humanity torture itself fighting against a darkness against which it couldn't win? Nothing it did mattered since the Dark One would win anyways given an infinite amount of time, and this fact made every sacrifice humanity made in trying to stave off the inevitable that much more tragic and heart wrenching. Ishmael is an Angel of Mercy, come to take the pain of the world away. Your welcome.

 

 

Yes.

 

Creator, LTT/Rand >= Shai'tan, Ishamael/Moridin.

 

Who is imprisioned? And who cannot get out? Shai'tan. Dragon (Reborn) >= Nae'blis. Who won in AoL? LTT defeated Ishamael in a one-on-one confrontation, both wielding saidin.

 

One creates, the other destroys.

 

I would say that the Creator only has 1 champion, same with the Shai'tan and their champions have been fighting each other for an eternity.

[WhiskyJack]

From DO's own mouth: KILLED BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE THEY CALL DRAGON.

 

 

Dragon is old, probably as old as wheel itself. He might not always have been called Dragon though.

[Superhal]

I think they're just boss monsters and plot devices to keep the story interesting. It's pretty pathetic how their plans are doomed to fail almost from the very beginning. If the original 13 Forsaken had linked in book 1, they could have killed Rand easily. If three of them had, they could have killed Rand before he learned balefire. They all knew Traveling, and they all knew wards that would prevent guards outside from hearing what is happening. By book 6 or so, Rand had surrounded himself with male and female channelers from all cultures. In fact, I think the DO purposely gave them conflicting orders to prevent them from succeeding, and he held out enough hints of reward to keep them from cooperating. The idea of Nae'blis kept them at each other's throats and prevented them from cooperating. Lanfear herself could have killed Rand in his sleep like 20 times over.

 

All of this leads me to believe that the DO is _not_ trying to stop Rand, but is actually helping him. As far as I can tell, the biggest defeats for Randland's forces have come from the Seanchan, not the DO. So, what do the Forsaken do? They present just enough of a threat to keep the Randlanders afraid and united against a common enemy.

[Entreri]

I think they're just boss monsters and plot devices to keep the story interesting. It's pretty pathetic how their plans are doomed to fail almost from the very beginning. If the original 13 Forsaken had linked in book 1, they could have killed Rand easily. If three of them had, they could have killed Rand before he learned balefire. They all knew Traveling, and they all knew wards that would prevent guards outside from hearing what is happening. By book 6 or so, Rand had surrounded himself with male and female channelers from all cultures. In fact, I think the DO purposely gave them conflicting orders to prevent them from succeeding, and he held out enough hints of reward to keep them from cooperating. The idea of Nae'blis kept them at each other's throats and prevented them from cooperating. Lanfear herself could have killed Rand in his sleep like 20 times over.

 

All of this leads me to believe that the DO is _not_ trying to stop Rand, but is actually helping him. As far as I can tell, the biggest defeats for Randland's forces have come from the Seanchan, not the DO. So, what do the Forsaken do? They present just enough of a threat to keep the Randlanders afraid and united against a common enemy.

 

The Forsaken never trusted each other and they had good reason for this. And they were free during different intervals, thus 13 linked was never going to happen. I see your point though.

 

Ta'avern effect is the only slight loop hole the author has and Shai'tans intentions. Rand nearly turned evil. What would be the point of during the Dragon (link to the Creator = imprisoning the Creator somehow??? Far fetched).

[Jimvzyl]

I think they're just boss monsters and plot devices to keep the story interesting. It's pretty pathetic how their plans are doomed to fail almost from the very beginning. If the original 13 Forsaken had linked in book 1, they could have killed Rand easily. If three of them had, they could have killed Rand before he learned balefire. They all knew Traveling, and they all knew wards that would prevent guards outside from hearing what is happening. By book 6 or so, Rand had surrounded himself with male and female channelers from all cultures. In fact, I think the DO purposely gave them conflicting orders to prevent them from succeeding, and he held out enough hints of reward to keep them from cooperating. The idea of Nae'blis kept them at each other's throats and prevented them from cooperating. Lanfear herself could have killed Rand in his sleep like 20 times over.

 

All of this leads me to believe that the DO is _not_ trying to stop Rand, but is actually helping him. As far as I can tell, the biggest defeats for Randland's forces have come from the Seanchan, not the DO. So, what do the Forsaken do? They present just enough of a threat to keep the Randlanders afraid and united against a common enemy.

 

Thats why we see Moridin play Sharah (sp)

There are certain prerequisites that are required if the DO is to be freed.

Killing the Dragon is not enough, nor is turning him to the shadow. At VoG Rand had no intentions of being turned to the shadow, but was growing dark and evil, and yet still opposed to the Shadow. He almost destroyed the Pattern. If Rand died or went over to the DO, the Pattern would shift course to prevent the DO from being freed. Yes, humanity may be all but obliterated, but the Pattern would remain.

You need to control the Fisher behind your enemy's goal row. Rand had to serve the purpose of the DO whilst not directly in control of the DO or the Pattern would have stopped him.

 

Hence RJ's quote that the alternative lives, 'I have won again Lews Therin' actually end in a draw. (i think thats what the quote was about)

 

This is why there is always a shifting of 'kill Rand', 'protect Rand' - especially when it becomes apparent to the Shadow that Rand is accomplishing (kill him to force a draw) or when he is failing (Let the Lord of Chaos rule)

 

But thats just my thoughts.

[Superhal]

Another thread set my thoughts on a different path: what if the DO can't break the pattern himself? He must use pawns to do it for him. Everything the Forsaken did was to push him to the brink, CK in hand, ready to destroy the pattern, doing the DO's wish. That Rand didn't means the DO lost. The real battle wasn't at Shayol Ghul, but within Rand himself.