Logain and the RedAjah

[RobertAlexWillis]

If they did, Siuan could have learned about it and be telling nothing but the truth.

 

If Siuan had learned of it as fact while she was still Amyrlin, she would have birched the Sisters involved. Since we have multiple POV's of her between the time she was stilled and the time she told the story of Logain being set up, it is all but impossible that she learned it during the trip from Tar Valon to Salidar. So, based on her actions (or lack of actions) while she was Amyrlin, it is unlikely that she knew of it for a fact at any time.

 

Ba'alzamon names off the previous False Dragons, one-by-one, including Logain as being puppets of the White Tower.

 

Granted, he's trying to manipulate Rand into joining the Dark, but that doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth. That the Tower, or at least one faction within it, didn't get behind Logain and push.

 

You know ... in any case where attempted manipulation is so blatantly obvious, I find the statement suspect. Just what has Ishamael said that you don't believe?

[Luckers]

Actually it means it played out in this order.

 

Logain meets Red (Black) sisters who tell him at that time to declare himself the Dragon Reborn.

 

 

That pretty much says it all for me. Its months later that Fain re-enters the Two Rivers, and is only then able to narrow down his list. Still longer before he finds his way back to Shayol Ghoul (which we know he does)

 

Meanwhile you are suggesting that on no more then a whim, Ishy happened to tell random low-level blackl sisters (enough of them that it just happened to reach the ones involved in this plan) that he had a suspicion that the Dragon was in the Two Rivers... not even a certain knowledge, but a suspicion.

 

I also don't believe he was behind Logain being set up. Its a purantile action that early in the game... it makes no sense and does not fit him. Oh sure, he has a propensity of spreading chaos... when it is needed. Additionally we have seen the need of the wheel directly influence the ascension and fall of the False Dragons. Thats where it came from.

 

Apparently there was some discipline in the Black Ajah following the Vileness, that resulted in Alviarin's ascension. The whole point of disciplining a subservient group is to ensure their future dependability. So, after disciplining them, he would have trusted the remaining Black Sisters (as much as he ever trusted anyone) to carry out his orders.

 

And yet there is neither evidence of orders, nor a need for them. His attention would have been elsewhere, and if he had need of a false dragon he would not have gone through the Aes Sedai. He would have just commanded some darkfriends to declare themselves. Ones who can channel. If he was truly trying to spread chaos at that particular time in that particular manner, then he would have shown much more finesse in his actions.

 

It would not be impossible for the Black Sisters to confirm that Logain was born somewhere other than Dragonmount, and therefore, not the real Dragon.

 

Concider all those young men they killed. The majority of those were born no where near Dragonmount. Obviously therefore it had no crossed the Black's minds of the relative importance of that little requirement. If they were willing to kill without concincidering it, and you can be damn sure they arn't about to raise a dragon simply because of it.

 

I'm sorry, i just dont see this being a possibility at all.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That pretty much says it all for me. Its months later that Fain re-enters the Two Rivers, and is only then able to narrow down his list. Still longer before he finds his way back to Shayol Ghoul (which we know he does)

 

Fain's last report was a year before his last trip. Logain proclaimed himself less than six months before the Winternight Trolloc attack (which coincided with Fain's trip). Therefore Fain's last report was at least six months before Logain proclaimed himself.

 

Actually no, according to his story the sisters found him over a year before he proclaimed himself which was about six months before he was captured. This was before Fain's second visit, which was the visit in which Fain became sure that his prey were there, though he did not know them yet.

 

Which means, my friend, that the Aes Sedai would have been instating him when even Ishy didn't know who was who and what he was sensing... certainly LONG before he sent any shadowspawn south.

 

and your other statement:

 

Actually it means it played out in this order.

 

Logain meets Red (Black) sisters who tell him at that time to declare himself the Dragon Reborn.

 

According to your own (first) statement, the sisters found him over a year before he proclaimed himself. That doesnt match up with your other statement. Which is it? Unless you're simply saying that the sisters found him but he did not meet them right away ... but that option still supports my timeline. Logain was not caught until just after the Winternight events in the Two Rivers. So, its like this:

 

Logain

[------1---------------------3----------------5----]

Two Rivers

[------------------2-----------------------4-------]

 

Those are simultaneous timelines based on your first statment with the following events:

 

1: Sisters find Logain

2: Padan Fain makes his final report to Ishamael

3: Sister meet Logain, he proclaims himself

4: Winternight Trolloc atack in Emond's Field

5: Logain caught

 

Thats according to your statement. That timeline allows plenty of time for Ishamael to determine that Logain isn't it, or for the Sisters to determine it independently.

 

Concider all those young men they killed. The majority of those were born no where near Dragonmount. Obviously therefore it had no crossed the Black's minds of the relative importance of that little requirement. If they were willing to kill without concincidering it, and you can be damn sure they arn't about to raise a dragon simply because of it.

 

Unless their considerations changed after the Vileness was stopped.

 

And yet there is neither evidence of orders, nor a need for them. His attention would have been elsewhere, and if he had need of a false dragon he would not have gone through the Aes Sedai. He would have just commanded some darkfriends to declare themselves. Ones who can channel. If he was truly trying to spread chaos at that particular time in that particular manner, then he would have shown much more finesse in his actions.

 

Since the orders, if given, would have occurred before the start of the storyline, they wouldn't have been detailed in the books. And why would Ishamael sacrifice one of his own channelers as a False Dragon when he could use another non-Darkfriend for the same purpose? Setting Logain up as a dupe without him knowing it seems pretty full of "finesse" to me.

 

Meanwhile you are suggesting that on no more then a whim, Ishy happened to tell random low-level blackl sisters (enough of them that it just happened to reach the ones involved in this plan) that he had a suspicion that the Dragon was in the Two Rivers... not even a certain knowledge, but a suspicion.

 

He wouldn't have to tell them anything more than "Tel this man to proclaim himself". No explanations about where the real Dragon is, no discussion of the weather, just "Do this" end of orders.

[Luckers]

1: Sisters find Logain

2: Padan Fain makes his final report to Ishamael

3: Sister meet Logain, he proclaims himself

4: Winternight Trolloc atack in Emond's Field

5: Logain caught

 

Umm... dude... the sisters weren't with Logain when he declared himself. As i said, and you just quoted twice, they met him a year before that and that was when they told him to become Dragon. That was when their plan was set in motion, and reguardless of when he did declare himself, that is long before Ishamael had specific suspects and therefore... drum role please, they were acting on a plan that is counter-productive to the agenda of the Black Ajah and the Shadow at that time.

 

Or at least supposedly. No Robert, it was a fabrication.

 

Since the orders, if given, would have occurred before the start of the storyline, they wouldn't have been detailed in the books. And why would Ishamael sacrifice one of his own channelers as a False Dragon when he could use another non-Darkfriend for the same purpose? Setting Logain up as a dupe without him knowing it seems pretty full of "finesse" to me.

 

It doesn't to me. Unleashing a channeler who is claiming to be the Dragon that close to where the Dragon possibly is. Thats neither finesse, nor in Ishy's nature.

 

As for the orders... im sorry but i find the whole 'plot' absurd. You are claiming that at a time when Ishy still didn't have a certain grasp of who and where the dragon was, he ordered a couple of lower level black ajah sisters to set up just ONE false Dragon--specifically at the same time keeping Alviarin from learning of it.

 

He wouldn't have to tell them anything more than "Tel this man to proclaim himself". No explanations about where the real Dragon is, no discussion of the weather, just "Do this" end of orders.

 

So now Ishy, on a casual whim, specifically went out and found a non-dark male channeler (something not inconsiderable), directed lower level black sisters--keeping it from Alviarin, involving the seeking out of names of hearts without going through the only person that knows them all--remember, still on just a casual whim--to set him up as a false dragon at a time when the real dragon hadn't been identified.

 

And lets not forget that later Suine just happens to guess this exact plan in coming up with her smear campeign, and Logain just happens to not comment on its remarkable similarity to the truth--a thing that would imply to him that she had been involved, for surely he would think she knew.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Umm... dude... the sisters weren't with Logain when he declared himself.

 

 

So what, they found him, then said "oh, a male channeler, thats nice" then walked away, then a year later for no apparent reason he declares himself the Dragon?

 

Thats not what I got from it at all, and makes even less sense. Why would real Sisters meet him a year before he declares himself and not take him?

[Bob T Dwarf]

There's a very nice timeline here: http://www.sevenspokes.com/chronology/3rd-ne.html

 

Scroll to the bottom and begin with the year 995 NE. It should shed a little light on this topic.

[RobertAlexWillis]

According to that timeline, Logain declared himself as the Dragon two seasons after Ishamael confirmed that the real Dragon was one of three boys in the Two Rivers. Which means that when Logain declared publicly, Ishamael already knew he wasn't the one.

 

Assuming that Luckers is correct about the sisters finding Logain a full year before he declared himself, that would make my order of events correct.

 

996 NE - autumn - sisters find Logain

997 NE - spring - Ishamael gets confirmation that the real Dragon is one of three boys in the Two Rivers

997 NE - autumn - Logain declares himself

998 Winternight (which is in spring) - Trolloc attack on Emond's Field

998 NE - spring - Logain captured

 

This leaves a question I'd like to see answered.

 

Assuming the Sisters found Logain a year before they declared himself, why would they leave him alone for a year, giving him time to gather an army and make all kinds of trouble?

 

A possible answer is contained in the sequence below:

 

1. Ishamael knows that the real Dragon has been reborn, but not exactly where. He also knows that a good way to undermine the Dragon even before he gets started is to foment mistrust among the nations with a rash of False Dragons.

 

2. Ishamael issues orders to Black Sisters, especially those infiltrating the Red Ajah, to find but not capture men who can channel, and keep tabs on them. This would fit in with possible recruitment of Dreadlords, maybe getting lucky and finding the Dragon, or, if neither of those two options pans out, using said male channeler as a dupe. Because of mistakes during the Vileness, he keeps close tabs on them.

 

3. Black Sisters find Logain.

 

4. Ishamael gets confirmation from Fain that the real Dragon is in the Two Rivers.

 

5. Ishamael orders the Black Sisters to encourage Logain to proclaim himself.

 

Tell me why that wouldn't work.

[Luckers]

Umm... dude... the sisters weren't with Logain when he declared himself.

 

 

So what' date=' they found him, then said "oh, a male channeler, thats nice" then walked away, then a year later for no apparent reason he declares himself the Dragon?

 

Thats not what I got from it at all, and makes even less sense. Why would real Sisters meet him a year before he declares himself and not take him?[/quote']

 

Firstly, they never found him, he set himself up. Remember? Fabrication? Secondly, he stated in his story that they found him a year before he announced himself and that was then that they initiated their plan to set him up. So yeah buddy, deal with it.

 

Assuming the Sisters found Logain a year before they declared himself, why would they leave him alone for a year, giving him time to gather an army and make all kinds of trouble?

 

They didn't find him. It was a fabrication, remember?

 

Tell me why that wouldn't work.

 

Coz it doesn't. Remember that year... im sure i mentioned it. The sisters approached logain about the plan a year ago.

 

The sisters made themselves known to Logain before any of your precious theory came to place. They didn't wait to encourage him until after Fain entered the two rivers, they started to encourage him the second they found him. If they were merely supposed to identify channelers, then why go over to Logain and say. "Oh hey man... so you can channel... thats cool. So listen, ever thought about--oh wait, we're supposed to wait on this until way later so the chronologies not upset. Oh yeah, and we're figments of Suine's imagination."

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK, I see what I did now. I assumed that the sisters finding him a year before he declared himself fell into the realm of "independently verified fact" rather than part of "Siuan's unverified story". Incorrect assumption, therefore, incorrect conclusions.

 

My bad. I hereby recant.

[Just another pawn]

I know this is resolved and all but even though I got here too late to make a difference I wanted add my two cents :). :

Just as a side note isn't it stated that the pattern was producing false dragons to fulfill the world's need and once the real Dragon proclaimed himself they were overthrown?

Also when Rand travels to Toman Head using the portal stone one of the other possible lives involves him hearing constant stories year after year of false dragons appearing. So while I think it's quite possible that either the Black Ajah could set up false dragons to ferment discord, or the Red could do it as a means of increasing their own prestige/ power I think it more likely that it was just the will of the pattern and Siuan's story was just a story.

Of course it's always possible that the pattern produced the false dragons by weaving the actions of the Black/Red Ajah into itself... now I have a headache and I'm not sure I added anything. Ah well, it was fun to post :).

[demonspawn]

But when Logain said that Aes Sedai were telling him when Aes sedai were going to be in the area, was that a fabrication of Logains?

 

Wether it was the Reds or the Blacks he was being tipped off!

[Simple Gleeman]

But when Logain said that Aes Sedai were telling him when Aes sedai were going to be in the area' date=' was that a fabrication of Logains?

 

Wether it was the Reds or the Blacks he was being tipped off![/quote']

 

Do you mean in Salidar when we get a glimpse of Logain talking to nobles? Thats the only time I can remember him saying anything on the subject.

 

If so, I'm almost certain he was fed lines by Siuan.

 

And as for Ishmael "not wanting to set up a false Dragon because he may turn out to be the Real Dragon", uhh.. he doesn't seem to be concerned about Rand's power even now. He has enough lack of concern that he orders his minions *not* to kill the Dragon - except for when he was cleansing saidin. He has the perfect opportunity to kill Rand in Shadar Logath, but instead Ishmael aided Rand.

 

No, Ishmael certainly would not be concerned about the Dragon Reborn coming to power, and thats before considering the fact that he was crazy before he died and his contemptuous attitude towards Lews Therin throughout the series.