Caemlyn battle

[Luckers]

The Shadow in general, and Demandred in particular, may know a lot more about the Band than we think. Mat is aready a target; someone (possibly Sammael) sent a gholam after both him and Elayne:

 

"He (?) wants you dead as much as he wants her."

 

Later on Talmanes and the Band enter the employ of King Roedran of Murandy (TPoD18). There is a lot of speculation that Roedran may in fact be Demandred; if that is true (and I realise I'm speculating on the basis of a speculation!) then anything's possible.

 

I have no idea whether Dem is capable of Compulsion. But he may use trickery instead. Or he may reach Olver through Bergevin, the man whose knife Olver took (ToM Epilogue).

 

Compulsion isn't a talent, therefore any channeler who learned it and has the strength can do it. So yea, Dem can.

 

If Healing is a Talent, then Compulsion is. There is a strata of ability. Same goes for Illusion/Mirror of Mists.

[FarShainMael]

Certainly; but then there's the small matter of knowledge of the weave. Some of the FS knew how to do it - Graendal, Aran'gar, and Rahvin all leap to mind. But they are no readier to share info among themselves than are Lightsiders. And I don't think we've seen any example of Dem putting anyone under Compulsion (feel free to prove me wrong on that, BTW ).

 

Anyway, it's certainly possible. Did it happen?

 

Olver is in Ebou Dar with Mat while Talmanes is in Murandy (I believe), so if Dem wanted to Compel him, he either had to make a small excursion - which seems unlikely - or wait until the Band is reunited. But I am certain that IF Dem is Roedran, he would have got as much out of Talmanes and the Band as he possibly could.

 

A sudden thought.. In TGS Prologue Dem said 'My rule is secure'. Did he, I wonder, mean the Band......?

...Nah.

...Er...

[Treebeard]

I think that there are a pretty big chance that someone ( unclear who) might persuade Olver that Matt had a great responsibility for driving the Shaido out on a rampage, i mean he is one of the dragons most trusted friends and advisor.

let me picture you a scene to describe the course of action:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i will not let the leadership be divided shouted Matt , it's exactly what Rand let happen to the Aiel and see what happen with the Shaido with destruction as result , and i am afraid that i approved of it in the beginning....

mats voice trailed of when he saw the arrested look on Olver face

 

Olver couldn't believe it the voice that he had heard in the night was true "the dragon and Matt wanted the Shido to cross the dragonwall and reck havoc. Matt had said it and made it plain who was to blame for his father death , he gripped a the dagger he had stolen and made himself ready to attack.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I dont think it to far fetched to imagine that it may happen just like that.

[FarShainMael]

I like that..

 

Another possibility:

 

On another thread we're discussing who was spreading rumours about Mat (about him going into Death's domain and demanding answers to his questions, and so on). It's emerged that Noal was held by Graendal for a while - and she's good at Compulsion. It's possible that Noal, who was in close contact with Olver, may have whispered a few words in his sleeping ear.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/71803-rumours-about-mat/

[Treebeard]

yes if Olver attacks we know who to blame. for lets face it almost no one spent so much time with the boy as Noal.

[FarShainMael]

Indeed.. Noal had Olver in his tent when the gholam attacked, and Mat was delighted that Noal had saved Olver's life (ToM9). Now wouldn't that be ironic..

[Maleshub]

To me, Olvar is Mat's weakness. He has taken care of the boy and is attached to him. If Olvar is killed or threatened, Mat would probably do something drastic; but not betrayal of the Light.

[FarShainMael]

To me, Olvar is Mat's weakness. He has taken care of the boy and is attached to him. If Olvar is killed or threatened, Mat would probably do something drastic; but not betrayal of the Light.

 

I agree that there would be no conscious betrayal of the Light, in the sense that neither Mat nor Olver would formally become a DF.. but in TG, anyone who is not for the Light is against it, overtly or otherwise.

[Vardar]

The Shadow in general, and Demandred in particular, may know a lot more about the Band than we think. Mat is aready a target; someone (possibly Sammael) sent a gholam after both him and Elayne:

 

"He (?) wants you dead as much as he wants her."

 

Later on Talmanes and the Band enter the employ of King Roedran of Murandy (TPoD18). There is a lot of speculation that Roedran may in fact be Demandred; if that is true (and I realise I'm speculating on the basis of a speculation!) then anything's possible.

 

I have no idea whether Dem is capable of Compulsion. But he may use trickery instead. Or he may reach Olver through Bergevin, the man whose knife Olver took (ToM Epilogue).

 

Compulsion isn't a talent, therefore any channeler who learned it and has the strength can do it. So yea, Dem can.

 

If Healing is a Talent, then Compulsion is. There is a strata of ability. Same goes for Illusion/Mirror of Mists.

 

Umm...

 

What does healing have to do with Compulsion? Or Mirror? Was it stated they were talents anywhere? Heck, Moriane told Eggy and Ny they could both learn Mirror in book one, so that goes beyond a talent. Everything isn't a talent.

 

Was delving ever mentioned as a talent? If Complusion was a talent, how come some form of it is so common for girls who learn to channel on their own when they come to the tower?

 

There's no evidence for compulsion being a talent, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[shortkut]

Rand wanted Ny to check for compulsion because he was never any good at it. If it was not a talent i would think he'd already know how to. Compulsion is a talent.

[Maleshub]

Rand wanted Ny to check for compulsion because he was never any good at it. If it was not a talent i would think he'd already know how to. Compulsion is a talent.

 

I think Rand needed Nynaeve to check for compulsion because Graendal weaves in Saidar. Rand cannot read/see Saidar weaves. He needed a trustworthy female channeler for that.

[shortkut]

If i recall correctly his own words were that he was never very good at it

[Maleshub]

If i recall correctly his own words were that he was never very good at it

 

Regardless of whether he was good or bad at compulsion. He needed Nynaeve to read the weaves for him.

[TristanWebb]

Compulsion changes the brain, so I think that delving properly while looking for it would show no matter which side was used. Unravelling it might be harder for cross gender, but I think you could diagnose it no matter what, as long as you were good enough to do it.

[Vardar]

Compulsion changes the brain, so I think that delving properly while looking for it would show no matter which side was used. Unravelling it might be harder for cross gender, but I think you could diagnose it no matter what, as long as you were good enough to do it.

 

Pretty much this. While unravelling it may be part of a talent akin to healing, it doesn't prove Compulsion is a talent at all. Actually, given the context of some abilities in the book, even if Rand was never the best at it, it still doesn't make it a talent. Some people are better at some things. Recall the Kin chick who could shield people stronger than her. Doesn't make shielding a talent because she was amazing at it.

[Treebeard]

Dosent Nyn check Ramshalean after he as been subjugated to compulsion and sees that it's gone even if it was Aran'gar who made it with Saidin.

[Vardar]

Dosent Nyn check Ramshalean after he as been subjugated to compulsion and sees that it's gone even if it was Aran'gar who made it with Saidin.

 

No Aran'gar didn't do it, Delena did. Remember, Gran told Aran'gar to weave someting as well, in case Rand checked too.

[Luckers]

The Shadow in general, and Demandred in particular, may know a lot more about the Band than we think. Mat is aready a target; someone (possibly Sammael) sent a gholam after both him and Elayne:

 

"He (?) wants you dead as much as he wants her."

 

Later on Talmanes and the Band enter the employ of King Roedran of Murandy (TPoD18). There is a lot of speculation that Roedran may in fact be Demandred; if that is true (and I realise I'm speculating on the basis of a speculation!) then anything's possible.

 

I have no idea whether Dem is capable of Compulsion. But he may use trickery instead. Or he may reach Olver through Bergevin, the man whose knife Olver took (ToM Epilogue).

 

Compulsion isn't a talent, therefore any channeler who learned it and has the strength can do it. So yea, Dem can.

 

If Healing is a Talent, then Compulsion is. There is a strata of ability. Same goes for Illusion/Mirror of Mists.

 

Umm...

 

What does healing have to do with Compulsion? Or Mirror? Was it stated they were talents anywhere? Heck, Moriane told Eggy and Ny they could both learn Mirror in book one, so that goes beyond a talent. Everything isn't a talent.

 

Was delving ever mentioned as a talent? If Complusion was a talent, how come some form of it is so common for girls who learn to channel on their own when they come to the tower?

 

There's no evidence for compulsion being a talent, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Well, I'm not sure you've got the clearest understanding of the usages of the word Talent in the series. It can, and is, applied in two ways. The first is in a natural-state ability, such as Foretelling, seeing ta'veren, Dreaming, etc. The second is where a person can place the same weave to greater effect than another. So, Nynaeve could make the Healing weave, place it, and fix almost anything, whilst Egwene could make that exact same weave and barely heal a bruise. The weave still works, but in a reduced capacity. Romanda is another interesting example, as she has great Talent in the old style of Healing, but very little in the new.

 

That second usage applies to any weave which works in that way--where it has greater or lesser effect depending on who wove it. Other examples that have been used and cited are weather weaving, shielding (Berowin and either Falion or Ispan has a Talent for Shielding, as per RJ, and there are others who do as well), Traveling, apparently, with regards to Androl, and others besides.

 

From there, no, Healing has nothing to do with Compulsion. The point was in the nature of how the usage of the word Talent is applied to Healing--specifically on a skill-strata. Ergo, given we percieve the same skill strata within the use of compulsion (i.e. that simply knowing weaving the webs is not enough to result in a similar effect, and that one person placing it can have greater effect than another (which we know to be the case from Moghedien), then by the usage Compulsion is a Talent just the same as Healing. The same skill strata can be observed with Mirror of Mists (though it has never been directly commented on by a character, we have seen some that have a Talent for Illusion--notably Lanfear and to a degree Semirhage).

 

Essentially, if someone is able to do above and beyond with a Weave, they've a Talent. It's how the word works.

[Vardar]

The Shadow in general, and Demandred in particular, may know a lot more about the Band than we think. Mat is aready a target; someone (possibly Sammael) sent a gholam after both him and Elayne:

 

"He (?) wants you dead as much as he wants her."

 

Later on Talmanes and the Band enter the employ of King Roedran of Murandy (TPoD18). There is a lot of speculation that Roedran may in fact be Demandred; if that is true (and I realise I'm speculating on the basis of a speculation!) then anything's possible.

 

I have no idea whether Dem is capable of Compulsion. But he may use trickery instead. Or he may reach Olver through Bergevin, the man whose knife Olver took (ToM Epilogue).

 

Compulsion isn't a talent, therefore any channeler who learned it and has the strength can do it. So yea, Dem can.

 

If Healing is a Talent, then Compulsion is. There is a strata of ability. Same goes for Illusion/Mirror of Mists.

 

Umm...

 

What does healing have to do with Compulsion? Or Mirror? Was it stated they were talents anywhere? Heck, Moriane told Eggy and Ny they could both learn Mirror in book one, so that goes beyond a talent. Everything isn't a talent.

 

Was delving ever mentioned as a talent? If Complusion was a talent, how come some form of it is so common for girls who learn to channel on their own when they come to the tower?

 

There's no evidence for compulsion being a talent, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Well, I'm not sure you've got the clearest understanding of the usages of the word Talent in the series. It can, and is, applied in two ways. The first is in a natural-state ability, such as Foretelling, seeing ta'veren, Dreaming, etc. The second is where a person can place the same weave to greater effect than another. So, Nynaeve could make the Healing weave, place it, and fix almost anything, whilst Egwene could make that exact same weave and barely heal a bruise. The weave still works, but in a reduced capacity. Romanda is another interesting example, as she has great Talent in the old style of Healing, but very little in the new.

 

That second usage applies to any weave which works in that way--where it has greater or lesser effect depending on who wove it. Other examples that have been used and cited are weather weaving, shielding (Berowin and either Falion or Ispan has a Talent for Shielding, as per RJ, and there are others who do as well), Traveling, apparently, with regards to Androl, and others besides.

 

From there, no, Healing has nothing to do with Compulsion. The point was in the nature of how the usage of the word Talent is applied to Healing--specifically on a skill-strata. Ergo, given we percieve the same skill strata within the use of compulsion (i.e. that simply knowing weaving the webs is not enough to result in a similar effect, and that one person placing it can have greater effect than another (which we know to be the case from Moghedien), then by the usage Compulsion is a Talent just the same as Healing. The same skill strata can be observed with Mirror of Mists (though it has never been directly commented on by a character, we have seen some that have a Talent for Illusion--notably Lanfear and to a degree Semirhage).

 

Essentially, if someone is able to do above and beyond with a Weave, they've a Talent. It's how the word works.

 

The one example where they call "shielding" a "Talent" was with the Kin woman (whose name escapes me at the moment) and I believe she says she's so good is nearly a "Talent" with her. Now I assumed this was merely her being overproud of her abilities. The Androl example is a good one as well. as his lack of strength means he shoudln't be able to make a gateway at all, but he can.

 

Now as to healing, I there were examples given of AS who couldn't heal at all, I know there are men who can't do any, thus making it a true talent, and not just someone being extra "Talented" at it vs others? Fortelling work's that way too, as Elidia can fortell, but it's reduced, it was even mentioned multiple times in the book, as opposed ot Pura, who can fortell on a whim (The one who told Tuon she would marry Mat). Hell, didn't they mention the last Dreamer in the WT wasn't that good (300 years ago). So even in those "true Talents" you listed, we have a strata of skill listed.

 

As to the weather weaving, wouldn't that be a true Talent, as not everyone can do it at all, even windfinders.

 

But I suppose in the context of the discussion at hand, we'd have to assume Dem wasn't capable of compulsion at all, or was very weak at it. My question is why? I mean thats a huge assumtion. it would really put him at a huge disadvantage on the side of evil. (As opposed to the side of light where not being able to do it wouldn't really make you that much weaker).

 

Essentially, if someone is able to do above and beyond with a Weave, they've a Talent. It's how the word works.

 

But that could qualify nearly every weave as a talent. Avi was extremely skilled at throwing fireballs, even to the point where was was near utter exhaustion, does that qualify it for a talent.

The one Androl example makes Gateways a talent, but it makes no sense since every other example given in the story says strength in one power denotes the size of the gateways made. 1 exception makes the rule?

 

How about making Cueliendar? Some AS are good, some are bad, some can't do it at all. So that qualifies it for a talent, and like healing, we see a range of abilities in the talent.

 

Not sure about your Illusion example. I'll think on it and check it out.

[Luckers]

The one example where they call "shielding" a "Talent" was with the Kin woman (whose name escapes me at the moment) and I believe she says she's so good is nearly a "Talent" with her. Now I assumed this was merely her being overproud of her abilities. The Androl example is a good one as well. as his lack of strength means he shoudln't be able to make a gateway at all, but he can.

 

 

RJ confirmed it, and stated that this was how Ispan and Falion managed to hold a shield on Nynaeve--because whichever of the two that was guiding the flows had a Talent for shielding. He inferred other do too.

 

Now as to healing, I there were examples given of AS who couldn't heal at all, I know there are men who can't do any, thus making it a true talent, and not just someone being extra "Talented" at it vs others? Fortelling work's that way too, as Elidia can fortell, but it's reduced, it was even mentioned multiple times in the book, as opposed ot Pura, who can fortell on a whim (The one who told Tuon she would marry Mat). Hell, didn't they mention the last Dreamer in the WT wasn't that good (300 years ago). So even in those "true Talents" you listed, we have a strata of skill listed.

 

 

Yes, people have varying strength in how Talented they are. The strata of skill issue is only significant if deciding something is a Talent when related to weaving the Power, and the effects of weaving--specifically if one person placing a weave at the same strength has a different effect than another, its a Talent--from there the terminology takes the same forms as strength in other Talents such as Foretelling or Dreaming (though I do wonder if Corianin was as weak as is made out. She was a very sneaky woman).

 

Side note, as it has no real impact on this discussion, but I can't off the top of my head recall any statements to the effect of there being someone, whom knowing the weave for healing, could place it to no effect whatsoever. The strongest terminology ever used for someone with little Talent in healing that I recall are comments along the line of that they could 'barely heal a bruise' and so forth. There is nothing against it--in fact the fact that the Talent of blocking gateways to keep them open is an example of a weave stated to completely not work for some people, so we do know the strata can go to that extreme and extent, I just don't recall it. Interesting thoughts.

 

As to the weather weaving, wouldn't that be a true Talent, as not everyone can do it at all, even windfinders.

 

Any weave of the Power, wherein one person placing it has a different effect to another person placing it is termed a Talent, so yes, Weaving the Winds is a probably a Talent--we know the Windfinders have greater effect in part because they have greater knowledge, not necessarily because of Talent, but it DOES seem likely that there is a Talent element, especially when you consider Moghedien's claims.

 

But I suppose in the context of the discussion at hand, we'd have to assume Dem wasn't capable of compulsion at all, or was very weak at it. My question is why? I mean thats a huge assumtion. it would really put him at a huge disadvantage on the side of evil. (As opposed to the side of light where not being able to do it wouldn't really make you that much weaker).

 

It's equally possible that he dislikes using it. Perhaps he gets a kick out of old school manipulation.

 

Or he simply has very little Talent for the weave.

 

But that could qualify nearly every weave as a talent.

 

Yes, provided the effects exist outside the realm of other explanation. For instance Old Siuan could lift more with the Power than New Siuan, but this is not a result of Talent, but of strength in the Power. Had two women of the same strength stood together and one been able to lift more than the other, then that woman would have a Talent in lifting things.

 

Avi was extremely skilled at throwing fireballs, even to the point where was was near utter exhaustion, does that qualify it for a talent.

 

She was never cited as being particularily skilled in weaving fireballs. What was remarked upon was that she and the Windfinders were faster than the Aes Sedai or the Kin at weaving fireballs because they made no form of throwing gesture as a part of that weave. Channeling when tired takes will power and yes, skill, but not Talent.

 

The one Androl example makes Gateways a talent, but it makes no sense since every other example given in the story says strength in one power denotes the size of the gateways made. 1 exception makes the rule?

 

 

No, this works under precisely the same rules. Androl, in placing the same weaves as other, is able to do what they cannot. Hence, he has a Talent. This is the defining element of weaving based Talents.

 

How about making Cueliendar? Some AS are good, some are bad, some can't do it at all. So that qualifies it for a talent, and like healing, we see a range of abilities in the talent.

 

 

Possibly it might be termed so, though I doubt it. It seems more to relate to strength in Earth than a Talent. As I said, if there is no other explanation for the variance in effect it is then the result of Talent. Strength in one of the Five Powers is such an explanation.

[Vardar]

Side note, as it has no real impact on this discussion, but I can't off the top of my head recall any statements to the effect of there being someone, whom knowing the weave for healing, could place it to no effect whatsoever. The strongest terminology ever used for someone with little Talent in healing that I recall are comments along the line of that they could 'barely heal a bruise' and so forth. There is nothing against it--in fact the fact that the Talent of blocking gateways to keep them open is an example of a weave stated to completely not work for some people, so we do know the strata can go to that extreme and extent, I just don't recall it. Interesting thoughts.

 

Could Eggy heal? She's seen the weaves and knows them, but has she ever done or attempted it? That was my first thought. Aside from the men, who a few mention they can't do it. Davish did right? (although he may be lying)

 

Any weave of the Power, wherein one person placing it has a different effect to another person placing it is termed a Talent, so yes, Weaving the Winds is a probably a Talent--we know the Windfinders have greater effect in part because they have greater knowledge, not necessarily because of Talent, but it DOES seem likely that there is a Talent element, especially when you consider Moghedien's claims.

 

So essentially every weave is a talent.

 

No, this works under precisely the same rules. Androl, in placing the same weaves as other, is able to do what they cannot. Hence, he has a Talent. This is the defining element of weaving based Talents.

 

Ok this makes a little more sense. We're moving away from it IS a talent, to they HAVE a talent. Unless you didn't mean to imply that. That I can live with. Someone has a Talent for a weave as opposed to the Weave is a Talent.

 

Possibly it might be termed so, though I doubt it. It seems more to relate to strength in Earth than a Talent. As I said, if there is no other explanation for the variance in effect it is then the result of Talent. Strength in one of the Five Powers is such an explanation.

 

I don't recall Leane or Bode being mentioned as particulary strong in earth. But I suppose you can mean it was implied.

[Luckers]

Could Eggy heal? She's seen the weaves and knows them, but has she ever done or attempted it? That was my first thought. Aside from the men, who a few mention they can't do it. Davish did right? (although he may be lying)

 

Not well. She's one of those 'no more than a bruise' types.

 

So essentially every weave is a talent.

 

No. Weaves themselves are not Talents.

 

Ok this makes a little more sense. We're moving away from it IS a talent, to they HAVE a talent. Unless you didn't mean to imply that. That I can live with. Someone has a Talent for a weave as opposed to the Weave is a Talent.

 

No that's a good way of looking at it. Weaves themselves are not Talents, but people may have Talents with weaves.

 

I don't recall Leane or Bode being mentioned as particulary strong in earth. But I suppose you can mean it was implied.

 

Actually its made very clear that once it was realised strength in Earth was needed to make Cuendillar the Aes Sedai, Accepted and novices were systematically tested for the skill. From CoT; 17, Secrets

 

Ability with the weave improved with practice, but of the Five Powers, strength in Earth was the key, and beside Egwene herself, only nine sisters in the camp—along with two of the Accepted and nearly two dozen novices—had sufficient of that to make the weaves work at all.

 

So no, not implied. Leane and Bode can both make cuendillar, ergo they both have strength in Earth.

[Vardar]

So no, not implied. Leane and Bode can both make cuendillar, ergo they both have strength in Earth.

 

Touche. I missed that.

 

 

Not well. She's one of those 'no more than a bruise' types.

 

But have we seen her do even that, or admit to being able to do that? At least iwth Elayne she says she can only heal a little. The Wise ones, we'll never know about.

[FarShainMael]

So no, not implied. Leane and Bode can both make cuendillar, ergo they both have strength in Earth.

 

Touche. I missed that.

 

 

Not well. She's one of those 'no more than a bruise' types.

 

But have we seen her do even that, or admit to being able to do that? At least iwth Elayne she says she can only heal a little. The Wise ones, we'll never know about.

 

This may throw a little light on things:

 

Gawyn!

 

Egwene threw herself from the bed and knelt beside him, ignoring the pain of her headache. He was breathing shallowly, and had a gaping wound in his side. She wove Earth, Spirit and Air into a Heaing weave, but she was far from talented in this area. She worked on, in a panic. Some of his colour returned and the wounds began to close, but she couldn't do nearly enough.

 

Then she bonds him to save his life.

[Vardar]

So no, not implied. Leane and Bode can both make cuendillar, ergo they both have strength in Earth.

 

Touche. I missed that.

 

 

Not well. She's one of those 'no more than a bruise' types.

 

But have we seen her do even that, or admit to being able to do that? At least iwth Elayne she says she can only heal a little. The Wise ones, we'll never know about.

 

This may throw a little light on things:

 

Gawyn!

 

Egwene threw herself from the bed and knelt beside him, ignoring the pain of her headache. He was breathing shallowly, and had a gaping wound in his side. She wove Earth, Spirit and Air into a Heaing weave, but she was far from talented in this area. She worked on, in a panic. Some of his colour returned and the wounds began to close, but she couldn't do nearly enough.

 

Then she bonds him to save his life.

 

Awesome! And I'm pretty sure that's the only time we've seen her do it. Thanks though, I couldn't recall if she just bonded him or not.