Light Vs Dark - A Draw?

[Nightstrike]

He is THE champion of the Light. When people say "the champion of the Light", there can be noone else. The Dragon soul has fought the Dark One since the moment of creation.

 

The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time

 

Chapter 5

 

Page 50 (HC);

 

indicate that it was his belief that the war between the Shadow and the soul of Lews Therin had gone on since the creation

 

Also, this says there's only one champion that they are referring to:

And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator's champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow's champion.

--->thinking about Rand/LTT

[Fbombs]

No that just says someone believes that Rand's soul has always been at war against the Shadow, not that he has been the only champion of the light ever. It doesn't rule out the possibility that there have been other struggles against the DO that have either not involved the Dragon, or where he wasn't the principal agent determining success for the light.

 

The second quote you just edited in could therefore imply it wasn't Rand's soul that was turned.

[Nightstrike]

No that just says someone believes that Rand's soul has always been at war against the Shadow, not that he has been the only champion of the light ever. It doesn't rule out the possibility that there have been other struggles against the DO that have either not involved the Dragon, or where he wasn't the principal agent determining success for the light.

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

You can stand above them, above every power and dominion but mine. There have been times when you made that choice, times when you lived long enough to know your power.

You=Rand=the Dragon soul

[Nightstrike]

The second quote you just edited in could therefore imply it wasn't Rand's soul that was turned.

No, since it was the dragon they were thinking about. Him specifically.

[Fbombs]

You keep repeating the same quotes over and over, but the fact hat they keep switching terminology (CoL and the Dragon) leaves these statements open to interpretation.

[Nightstrike]

You keep repeating the same quotes over and over, but the fact hat they keep switching terminology (CoL and the Dragon) leaves these statements open to interpretation.

But I don't switch terminology. The fan asked RJ about the same thing that I quoted (what Ishy said to Rand). Also, Sammael specifically thought about the Dragon when thinking about the Light's/Shadow's champion. Read the chapter in question and see, but I thought it can be seen in the quote just as well. The chapter is LoC, 6.

[yoniy0]

The fact of the matter is that RJ wasn't simply asked whether Ishamael was lying when he said 'no', he was asked whether Ishamael was lying in saying that the Champion of the Light has turned over to the Shadow before. Therefore one can interpret RJ's response as confirming that basic fact, regardless of Ishamael's assertion that the Dragon soul once made that choice.

[Nightstrike]

The fact of the matter is that RJ wasn't simply asked whether Ishamael was lying when he said 'no', he was asked whether Ishamael was lying in saying that the Champion of the Light has turned over to the Shadow before. Therefore one can interpret RJ's response as confirming that basic fact, regardless of Ishamael's assertion that the Dragon soul once made that choice.

So you claim that Ishy never said it? Isn't it clear to everybody (it was to Sammael) what he was talking about? If someone had asked RJ if Ishy was right in telling Rand that rosebushes are a type of plants, what would RJ have answered?

 

Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

RJ seems to have thought that Ishy actually said it.

[Suttree]

The fact of the matter is that RJ wasn't simply asked whether Ishamael was lying when he said 'no', he was asked whether Ishamael was lying in saying that the Champion of the Light has turned over to the Shadow before. Therefore one can interpret RJ's response as confirming that basic fact, regardless of Ishamael's assertion that the Dragon soul once made that choice.

So you claim that Ishy never said it? Isn't it clear to everybody (it was to Sammael) what he was talking about? If someone had asked RJ if Ishy was right in telling Rand that rosebushes are a type of plants, what would RJ have answered?

 

Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

RJ seems to have thought that Ishy actually said it.

 

Dude seriously stop shouting and bolding.

 

You never even addressed the actual issue that Yoniy0 brought up and I expanded upon. Nothing you have provided proves that the CoL is always the Dragon which is what you are basing your whole premise around. The quote from RJ above which you conveniently edited mentions "Hero" not Dragon or LTT.

 

Back to the original topic...

 

But if he was making that distinction then it's a good answer to my original question. I can see how it could be a draw if the Dragon and Champion were two different people.

 

I think this would make a good deal of difference and it would explain why turning the "Dragon" is so important to the DO. It really is the only explanation I can think of for the conflicting quotes.

[Nightstrike]

Dude seriously stop shouting and bolding.

I'm not shouting. If I'm forced to quote the same thing 3 times or more, I think I should be entitled to use size 5. That's what size 5 is for. Otherwise it wouldn't be an option.

 

You never even addressed the actual issue that Yoniy0 brought up and I expanded upon. Nothing you have provided proves that the CoL is always the Dragon which is what you are basing your whole premise around. The quote from RJ above which you conveniently edited mentions "Hero" not Dragon or LTT.

Yes, I addressed it. Ishy talked to Rand about the Dragon, and the fan asked RJ about it. That he mentioned "hero" in the context is of no importance. Sammael thought on the Dragon/hero in the same context - Sammael knew what Ishy had said.

[Suttree]

Dude seriously stop shouting and bolding.

I'm not shouting. If I'm forced to quote the same thing 3 times or more, I think I should be entitled to use size 5. That's what size 5 is for. Otherwise it wouldn't be an option.

 

You never even addressed the actual issue that Yoniy0 brought up and I expanded upon. Nothing you have provided proves that the CoL is always the Dragon which is what you are basing your whole premise around. The quote from RJ above which you conveniently edited mentions "Hero" not Dragon or LTT.

Yes, I addressed it. Sammael thought on the Dragon, and the fan asked RJ about it. Ishy talked to Rand about the Dragon. That he mentioned "hero" in the context is of no importance. Sammael knew.

 

Look I have had to ask you numerous times to address RJ's quote, the only one where he specifically mentions LTT and says that Ishy was lying. I'm not bolding and sizing up because you ignore it.

 

All the quotes that you keep repeating over and over don't change anything. Not to mention you cut out the parts where the phrasing RJ uses could work against you. It is obvious some people interpret them in a different way...not sure why you have such a hard time with that.

[Fbombs]

There's no indication Sammael thinks of LTT as any more than a particular instance of the Shadow trying to turn the light's champion. LTT is simply the only champion he knows about.

[Nightstrike]

Look I have had to ask you numerous times to address RJ's quote, the only one where he specifically mentions LTT and says that Ishy was lying. I'm not bolding and sizing up because you ignore it.

I know what quote you're talking about, and he didn't say "lying". He just didn't answer the question. Also, someone else addressed that already.

 

(Maybe RJ hadn't made up his mind about it the first time he was asked the question, or maybe he just wasn't in the mood the first time, and didn't want to say "RAFO"?)

[Nightstrike]

There's no indication Sammael thinks of LTT as any more than a particular instance of the Shadow trying to turn the light's champion. LTT is simply the only champion he knows about.

Read the quote I provided. Or, even better, read the entire chapter.

[Fbombs]

I have and it still doesn't nail down as LTT being the sole champion of the light throughout the entire history of the wheel.

[Puny]

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

 

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

Just because the characters think it doesn´t make it right. We have been shown time and again that what some hold for truth or are certain of is false. Jordan says that the Dragon soul is bound to the Horn but that the soul also can be born as a non-Dragon reincarnation, meaning that the Dragonsoul doesn´t always have to be born with the Dragonqualities. He can be a "normal" person too. Jordan said it... I guess refering to the soul cause I know he said the Dragonsoul is always male.

 

I know somewhere that someone mentioned Amatesu (sp) as a possible female CoL when the Wheel needed it (maybe when the Dragonsoul failed in some way), but that she was a CoL not the dragon soul. I´m not sure if that is something that RJ said or a fan thought of.

[Nightstrike]

..., yet Ishamael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in that fact. Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Telamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator's champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow's champion.

This section, and a bit before the quote, is all about the Dragon soul (LTT/Rand/whoever else). It is Sammael thinking about the Dragon, and what Ishy had "divined". The context is LTT=the Dragon soul=The champion.

 

The Champion of the Light turned. "The", as in the one champion. The one Dragon soul.

 

The Dragon has been turned.

[Puny]

Hmm... I´ve read that part and I didn´t interpret it as you did Nightstrike.

 

"And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator´s Champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow´s champion."

 

Wouldn´t it be more natural to say... !in the past Lews Therin was made a creature..."

 

I dk.. I don´t think it´s that straightforward...

[Nightstrike]

"And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator´s Champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow´s champion."

 

Wouldn´t it be more natural to say... !in the past Lews Therin was made a creature..."

Lews Therin hasn't been turned. It was the Dragon soul that has been turned. Sammael is upset about the Dragon, and thinks about Rand/LTT/the Dragon. It's envy & stuff like that that drives Sammael's thought in that chapter.

[Suttree]

Look I have had to ask you numerous times to address RJ's quote, the only one where he specifically mentions LTT and says that Ishy was lying. I'm not bolding and sizing up because you ignore it.

I know what quote you're talking about, and he didn't say "lying". He just didn't answer the question. Also, someone else addressed that already.

 

(Maybe RJ hadn't made up his mind about it the first time he was asked the question, or maybe he just wasn't in the mood the first time, and didn't want to say "RAFO"?)

 

Yes he did answer the question, he expressed incredulity that someone would believe Ishy in saying LTT had gone over. BTW this wasn't the "first time" and if he hadn't made up his mind it works against you. That answer came two years AFTER the other two where he said the CoL had gone over in the past!!! So please continue trying to explain that away.

[Nightstrike]

Yes he did answer the question, he expressed incredulity that someone would believe Ishy in saying LTT had gone over. BTW this wasn't the "first time" and if he hadn't made up his mind it works against you. That answer came two years AFTER the other two where he said the CoL had gone over in the past!!!

It was just a suggestion of mine as to why he didn't answer the question. If he'd already answered the question, then he might have answered that way because of... annoyance, perhaps? Anyway, he never said that Ishy was "lying". The other time he got the question, he clearly stated that Ishy wasn't lying.

 

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

Regarding this conversation:

You can stand above them, above every power and dominion but mine. There have been times when you made that choice, times when you lived long enough to know your power.

 

You=the Dragon

[Puny]

"And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator´s Champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow´s champion."

 

Wouldn´t it be more natural to say... !in the past Lews Therin was made a creature..."

Lews Therin hasn't been turned. It was the Dragon soul that has been turned. Sammael is upset about the Dragon, and thinks about Rand/LTT/the Dragon. It's envy & stuff like that that drives Sammael's thought in that chapter.

 

Hmm so you mean that somewhere in an Age the Dragon soul was turned, it just wasn´t when it was reincarnated as Lews Therin?

 

Suttree: Do you mean that RJ expressed increduality that LTT had gone over... but saying that in previous ages CoL had gone over to the Shadow, meaning that the dragon soul isn´t necessary the CoL always?

I confess I am somewhat confused... =/

[Nightstrike]

Hmm so you mean that somewhere in an Age the Dragon soul was turned, it just wasn´t when it was reincarnated as Lews Therin?

Yep, that's what I mean. Neither Rand nor Lews Therin, but another with the Dragon soul.

[Suttree]

Yes he did answer the question, he expressed incredulity that someone would believe Ishy in saying LTT had gone over. BTW this wasn't the "first time" and if he hadn't made up his mind it works against you. That answer came two years AFTER the other two where he said the CoL had gone over in the past!!!

It was just a suggestion of mine as to why he didn't answer the question. If he'd already answered the question, then he might have answered that way because of... annoyance, perhaps? Anyway, he never said that Ishy was "lying". The other time he got the question, he clearly stated that Ishy wasn't lying.

 

Nightstrike you do realize you are the only one in this topic interpreting the situation that way. Regardless of whose right doesn't that make you understand it's not as clear cut as you are making it out to be?

[Nightstrike]

Nightstrike you do realize you are the only one in this topic interpreting the situation that way. Regardless of whose right doesn't that make you understand it's not as clear cut as you are making it out to be?

Only one posting with a certain position doesn't make it wrong. I think it's pretty clear cut.