How early did the Forsaken escape from the bore? And what did they do?

[Thorbear]

I was always under the impression that they were all trapped, except for Ishamael who is only partially trapped, until the end of Eye of the World when Balthamel and Aginor appears.

 

But then I read somewhere here that Semirhage was at large in Seanchan long before that and that she killed Tuon's Truthspeaker on the day before Winternight. That made me wonder, were all the other forsaken loose at that time? Or only some? If Lanfear was loose, it seems to me she would have come for Rand than she did. Rahvin doesn't appear in Caemelyn until later in the series. Both of them could very well still be locked up.

 

But the others? Is Sammael already in Illian? Was it he who called the Great Hunt? Is Mesaana already in the White Tower? Be´lal in Tear?

 

What do you think?

[herid]

Apart from Ishy, Aginor, Balthamel and Lanfear most of the others were probably freed some time during TDR. Egwene has a dream in TDR, Ch 37 about men and women breaking out of a cage and putting on crowns. This pretty clearly means the Forsaken and since prophetic dreams are about the future that would mean that most were freed after that point in time

Semirhage is a tricky issue. Semirhage likely killed the woman who was Tuon's old Truthspeaker and took her place which was "less than two years ago". This is mentioned in WH, Ch 14. This is not an exact date but does put the event before TDR starts by all the timelines I've seen. Of course, it's not altogether clear how long it took for Tuon to get a new Truthspeaker but it's unlikely that it would take her all that long.

[Thorbear]

That's what I always thought, but I got this feeling during my last reread of The Great Hunt that I have always underestimated the Shadow... wherever you look there's darkfriends; Ingtar, the Black Ajah sisters accompanying Siuan to Fal Dara, Sheriam, Verin, Lord Barthanes in Cairhien... it's all there right from the beginning, darkfriends everywhere... chaos erupting all over the world... I've always thought the heroes were keeping up with the Shadow, but now I start to think that the Shadow has been a few steps ahead all the time.

[Grig]

That's what I always thought, but I got this feeling during my last reread of The Great Hunt that I have always underestimated the Shadow... wherever you look there's darkfriends; Ingtar, the Black Ajah sisters accompanying Siuan to Fal Dara, Sheriam, Verin, Lord Barthanes in Cairhien... it's all there right from the beginning, darkfriends everywhere... chaos erupting all over the world...

 

Ishy had been running the Black Ajah for thousands of years, and darkfriend networks were not generally started by the Forsaken (they tend to distrust darkfriends, even). The freeing of the Forsaken from the bore is by no means a prerequisite or even a serious contributing factor for your "darkfriends everywhere" fears. Aside from Ishamael, the rest appear to simply hijack already existing groups of Darkfriends (or Compel lightsiders).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Indeed, many people think the Forsaken useless. True, they have fallen in battle pretty easily, but look what they have done to the world. Most of the chaos that the characters are trying to overcome in the middle books where the trollocs are absent are caused by the Forsaken.

 

They dont need to attack, at least, the smart ones didnt (unlike Sammael, Rhavin and Be'lal who got slaughtered) they just sat back and watched as the world collapsed around them. Breeding shadowspawn and holding them back until the LB finally started, facing a weakened force of the Light.

 

The white tower broken. Seanchan comming back (Ishamael's doing), the Black Tower almost fully under control of the Shadow. Arad Doman in chaos. Cairhien in shambles. Andor split by civil war until recently. Illian under the control of Sammael until Rand smashed him. Dragonsworn killing random people (masema manipulated by Forsaken)

 

Thats just to name a few problems the Light has faced. The list of other things they had to overcome is long.

 

It may not look like the Forsaken are doing much. Every time they come up against Rand or someone personally, they die. But looking past the immediate battles, they ripped the world apart pretty well.

[spoke]

ishmael -- free at start of EOTW

Anginor -- free at end of EOTW

Bathamael -- free at end of EOTW

Lanfear -- First appearance in TGH (probably free at or near same time as the Dark Prophecy is written)

Samael -- confirmed in TDR (probably at start of book due to dreams)

Belal -- confirmed in TDR (probably at start of book due to dreams/plot)

Mesana -- Probably some time after TDR because Lanfear was operating in the tower before that (poaching in another's territory) however her earliest influence is shown orchestrating the breaking of the white tower)

Demandred -- unknown (first appearance is late in series)

Asmodean -- unknown (first appearance sometime after TDR, but probably operating for some time as he new location of grendal)

Moghedien -- unknown (first appearance sometime after TDR)

Grendal -- unknown (but Asmo knew she was in Arad Doman - so sometime after TDR)

rahvin -- seen during TDR - but probably started influence when Elida/morgase went to tower to complain

Semirage -- unknown (but said to have been operating for a long time with Tuon)

 

My assumption would be to say that by the second & third seals being broken, all the Forsaken had escaped which would be at the end of TGH

[mb]

Ishamael free since the beginning of the main series. Died near end of Dragon Reborn.

Aginor & Balthamel released near the end of Eye of World. Died immediately after.

Lanfear released in Great Hunt. Died some time after Fires of Heaven.

Rahvin/Sammael/Belal/Mesaana released in Dragon Reborn. Belal killed near end of book. Rahvin killed near end of Fires of Heaven. Sammael died near end of Crown of Swords. Mesaana, dead/alive uncertain right now; downfall in Towers of Midnight.

Moghedien/Asmodean/Semirhage released in Shadow Rising. Asmodean killed near end of Fires of Heaven. Semirhage killed in Gathering Storm. Moghedien still alive.

Graendal & Demandred released in Fires of Heaven. Both still alive.

 

Aginor & Balthamel resurrected as Osangar & Arangar (respectively) in Lord of Chaos. Osangar killed near end of Winter's Heart. Arangar killed in Gathering Storm/Towers of Midnight (scene repeated).

Ishamael & Lanfear resurrected as Moridin & Cyndane (respectively) in Crown of Swords. Both still alive.

 

 

Edit:: The links from this page tell their actions: http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/organizations/forsaken.html

[Thorbear]

Here is the link to the Chronology that say Neferi was killed and replaced by Anath before Winternight. It's at the bottom of the page.

 

 

http://www.sevenspokes.com/chronology/3rd-ne.html

[herid]

Here is the link to the Chronology that say Neferi was killed and replaced by Anath before Winternight. It's at the bottom of the page.

 

 

http://www.sevenspokes.com/chronology/3rd-ne.html

this is an excellent chronology but like all the others it's entirely fan made. none of them have any special secret knowledge about the timing of events. This placing is very approximate (it even says "circa") and is based entirely on the remark about Neferi's death in WH Ch 14 that I mentioned earlier. Neferi is not mentioned any other place in the series.

 

Also, one does need to consider the possibility that Tuon's reference to the time of Neferi's death may be inaccurate. Characters in WOT sometimes use references to long time intervals rather loosely. For example, when Lan and Nynaeve talk before she sends him off to Saldaea he mentions this

 

He looked down at her for a long time, but at last he exhaled softly, and the tension left his arm. "Are you sure, Nynaeve? If you are, then, yes, Shienar. In the Trolloc Wars, the Shadow used Tarwin's Gap to move large numbers of Trollocs, just as it did a few years back, when we sought the Eye of the World. But only if you are completely sure."

-KoD, Ch 20

 

By all the fan chronologies I've seen, less than two years passed between the fight at Tarwin's gap at the end of tEoTW and that conversation so referring to that time interval as "a few years" is somewhat strange.

[Ishna]

I dont have the quote but moghedien makes a comment about Ishamael when she holds the girls under compulsion in Tanchico that makes it obvious that she has met him after she was released. Which means she was freed during TDR.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Lanfear was caught deep inside the Sealing of the Bore, causing her imprisonment to be dreamless--a stark contrast to Aginor's three thousand years of nightmares. If he was on the edge, then she must have been right in the middle. I doubt anyone was released appreciably later than her, even though she was one of the first to make herself known on-screen (albeit under a guise).

 

As somebody mentions, however, this might contradict Egwene's Dream. However, since we've seen that her Dreams only have to be partially prophetic, I would reconcile the inconsistency to mean that, by the time she had that Dream, the Forsaken were already loose--but hadn't yet "put on their crowns."

[Barid Bel Medar]

Lanfear was caught deep inside the Sealing of the Bore, causing her imprisonment to be dreamless--a stark contrast to Aginor's three thousand years of nightmares. If he was on the edge, then she must have been right in the middle. I doubt anyone was released appreciably later than her, even though she was one of the first to make herself known on-screen (albeit under a guise).

 

As somebody mentions, however, this might contradict Egwene's Dream. However, since we've seen that her Dreams only have to be partially prophetic, I would reconcile the inconsistency to mean that, by the time she had that Dream, the Forsaken were already loose--but hadn't yet "put on their crowns."

 

I agree.

 

Anyway, I doubt that the Forsaken who were properly trapped would just wake up and immediately start taking over kingdoms. Aginor, Ishamael and Balthamael all had interaction with the world for the past 3000 years, they had an idea of what was going on. The other Forsaken did not. They didnt even know the common tounge. So it would take weeks at least to learn that.

 

Id say they all got together for a meeting when they were all freed, and Ishamael or possibly the DO himself gave them a rundown on what the situation was. Id say most of the first 3 months of their freedom in the 3rd age was spent learning what had gone down in 3000 years. Scouting out the world and making plans.

[Terez]

Most likely they were all free by the time we saw Lanfear, as she was one of the most deeply-trapped in the prison. We may not have much evidence of their doings before then, but most of them are placed by TDR.

[Sharaman]

Reasonable to assume that they were all free (except the dead ones) circa Selene's appearance. It takes time to learn Common (maybe speeded up by some unknown AoL or TP-based speed teaching techniques#), and to scout out locales and build power bases there.

By TDR, they were known to have slotted into place in Ilian, Caemlyn, Tear.

In Arad Doman, and the WT, they were both in place before TSR, and likely in Seanchan (it takes months to cross the Aryth and Anath had been in place much earlier).

[Guest NathanRussell]

Could it be possible that they were all free by the time of the meeting at the beginning of TGH? The one that is told from the point of view of "Bors"? Since each attendee at that meeting only heard his or her own instructions from Ishamael, maybe the folks that Bors observed were the other Forsaken that had just been freed?