Random WoT Rant

[yoniy0]

A nation of desert dwellers, grown strong because of the hardship of their lives? Eventually leaving said desert to conquer the world, led by their messiah? I don't know any other example (unless you consider the Israelites, but Moses didn't get to go to the promised land).

[sonuvnothing]

Definitely could be. Some kind of messianic myth of a savior, maybe?

The Shaitan, Shai'tan connection stemming from Islam, is a definite. I know Herbert, in the first books, uses a lot of Arabic words. Mahdi, Shaitan, etc. Also, in the later books (of his six) he mentions a lot about the Sufi sect of Islam and and how an entire culture, the Tleilaxu, stemmed from that. So I know he was into religious association. I'm waiting for someone far more knowledgeable on anthropology and such to jump in and drop some knowledge!!!

[Talmanes]

Jeez people remember, no spoilers.

I agree somewhat with some of the similarities you pointed out, but like you said yourself, they are pretty broad and don't all fit too well.

[yoniy0]

Jeez people remember, no spoilers.

Hold your horses. Nobody said anything about Jessica's killing Paul after she learns of his affair with Stilgar; what are you getting so excited about?

 

Yeah, sorry about that. Didn't think. Tell me this, though, how far along are you?

[Diederichos]

It's actually a fairly common point in history of a nomadic/tribe-based group getting a messiah/leader-type figure and then conquering large parts of the world. From Islam to the Mongols and likely well before and well after. The Arabic pronunciation of Ishmael(which I pronounce is as Ishmayl) is Isma-il, a bit closer to WoT's Isha-ma-el. Herbert is really bad at copying other cultures, at least with RJ you're sorta guessing.

[Erunion]

What RJ did (according to interviews) when creating a culture, was to establish a core premise. He would then build a culture around this premise, using logic. "If a culture does this, they must also do this". Frankly, it's not surprising that there are similarities between cultures, both WOT and real world and WOT and other works of SF/Fantasy.

[Sharaman]

Dune is hardly the only influence on WOT.

RJ borrowed a lot of Arabic words - the names of the trolloc clans, random names like Ishamel, Be'lal, Mezar, Shai'tan.

He also borrowed a lot of common Christian names, and from Celtic legend (Finns) as well as Norse and Arthurian legend.

The theology itself is a mishmash of several Eastern religions (reincarnation, cyclic time) and Middle Eastern Book religions.

He also borrowed random traits from various existing ethnic groups and spread them around. The Shienarians wear top-knots and have communal baths ala Japan; the Seanchan culture owes a lot to Turkish/Chinese influences; the Aiel are Celts who fight like Zulu/ Apache; the TR uses the Welsh/ English longbow, etc.,

(Edit for spelling)

[yoniy0]

Yes, well, it was part of his theme that his world is the same as ours, and that legends (such as the name of Satan, Norse mythology etc.) in our time may well have originated from 3rd Age events.

[Erunion]

And the legends of the Third Age may have originated from our events.

Lenn flying to the moon? His 'daughter' dancing among the stars? 'Mosk' and 'Merk' dueling with lances of fire that can reach around the world? Queen Alsbet, ruler of all?

[Talmanes]

Jeez people remember, no spoilers.

Hold your horses. Nobody said anything about Jessica's killing Paul after she learns of his affair with Stilgar; what are you getting so excited about?

 

Yeah, sorry about that. Didn't think. Tell me this, though, how far along are you?

Lol I just got to the funeral of Jamis

[Reeve]

Bollox to Jamis lol

[SethBaker]

And the legends of the Third Age may have originated from our events.

Lenn flying to the moon? His 'daughter' dancing among the stars? 'Mosk' and 'Merk' dueling with lances of fire that can reach around the world? Queen Alsbet, ruler of all?

 

Yeah, those are all quite obvious. RJ mentions them in an interview from way back.

 

Don't forget Anla the Wise Counselor. (Ann Landers).

[Erunion]

That was Ann Landers? I always thought Anla the Wise Counselor was Anna Komneonos.

 

Edit: Just wikied Ann Landers. Totally makes sense for "the Wise Counselor".

[Mr Ares]

I think the first Dune book may well be one of the best sci-fi / fantasy books ever written. There is only that, and Stephen Donaldson's Gap series which I rate as better than WoT.

The difference between the two Shiatan names is that Frank Herberts use of it fits with the history of Dune - it would be a spoiler to say more, but as far as world building goes, Dune is in many ways truer. The WoT is a world invented, rather than one based upon, so the name in WoT is a funny coincidence rather than a part of the world.

Having said that, you cannot write a book about a fantasy place without having references to our world. It would be gobbledegook.

I fail to see the distinction between Dune and WoT's worldbuilding. Both are, essentially, visions of our own distant future (and past as well, in Wot's case), so what makes one "truer"? Why is one considered invented and the other based upon?

 

As the old saying goes "there is no such thing as originality, just undiscovered theft".

As the other old saying goes, talent borrows, genius steals.

[Reeve]

I think the first Dune book may well be one of the best sci-fi / fantasy books ever written. There is only that, and Stephen Donaldson's Gap series which I rate as better than WoT.

The difference between the two Shiatan names is that Frank Herberts use of it fits with the history of Dune - it would be a spoiler to say more, but as far as world building goes, Dune is in many ways truer. The WoT is a world invented, rather than one based upon, so the name in WoT is a funny coincidence rather than a part of the world.

Having said that, you cannot write a book about a fantasy place without having references to our world. It would be gobbledegook.

I fail to see the distinction between Dune and WoT's worldbuilding. Both are, essentially, visions of our own distant future (and past as well, in Wot's case), so what makes one "truer"? Why is one considered invented and the other based upon?

 

As the old saying goes "there is no such thing as originality, just undiscovered theft".

As the other old saying goes, talent borrows, genius steals.

 

Im sorry you fail to see the difference and seem so upset about it lol. If it makes you happy, there is no difference. And your saying is far superior to mine. So you win all the cake!

[sonuvnothing]

"I fail to see the distinction between Dune and WoT's worldbuilding. Both are, essentially, visions of our own distant future (and past as well, in Wot's case), so what makes one "truer"? Why is one considered invented and the other based upon?"

 

First off, without my having to scroll up a page or two... did anyone use the term 'based upon'? I could be wrong, but I don't remember myself or anyone using that term. I would never-ever-ever, when introducing WoT to someone, say to them, "Hey, you ever read 'Dune'? Well this series 'Wheel of Time', it's like a fantasy version!" They are so completely different in almost every aspect. I agree, each series' 'world-building', as you say, is so dissimilar. The writing style, the pacing, the action, everything is different. I just notice similarities that are obvious to ME, which I would direct you to my post above to read. I have read both of them extensively, I'm not the most hardcore theory-making, theory-cracking, book-quotin superfan, but I'd definitely consider myself a BIG fan of both worlds.

 

Neither is 'truer', they are both invented novels stemming from the subconscious mind of each respective author. What is the subconscious? One would argue that it is, "everything that one has ever read, seen, thought, absorbed, learned, etc... circling in an endless static humming vibration, spewing forth connections and ideas."

If such is the case, than Herbert wrote 'Dune' working through his subconscious, merging his ideas with maybe past mythologies he read of, past cultures, his views of ecology, his thoughts on philosophy, world trade, military dictatorships, hell, even old books he read.

Well, Jordan also wrote WoT the same way... but guess who was swimming around in his subconscious? Herbert! Seeing as his first DUNE novel was published in 1965, and I'm pretty sure it won a Hugo as well as a Nebula award. I'm of the opinion that Jordan read Herbert. Heh, I'm sure someone has an RJ quote handy saying that he read them. Matter of fact, I'm so strongly convinced he read Herbert, that even if there was a quote saying he didn't, I'd say he was lying. Hah, I'm fanatical on this issue.

 

To me, and I'll tell you now, nothing will change my mind, Herbert influenced Jordan, and you can broadly claim any anthropological mythic ancient legends trying to neatly tie them together and say that Jordan never read Herbert, but my dumb-asshole-uneducated-24-year old opinion is not going to change into believing that Jordan, being in the sci-fi/fantasy/fiction world, running in those circles for years upon years, never once read a Dune novel. I'm not saying he cognizantly lifted any themes from Herbert... subconsciously? probably.

 

(and yes, by that logic, I AM implying that every author that was ever preceded by an other author lifted themes from them. it's called 'standing on the shoulders of giants'. Humans are sponges. We regurgitate the same themes, the same rhetoric, with new packaging. There is nothing new under the sun. Come on, you wool-headed light-blasted sheepherders... it's all a wheel, isn't it?)

 

edit: to further explain my general opinion: ask the director Lucio Fulci (if he wasn't dead), if he ever watched George Romero's 'Dawn of the Dead', ask the band Dark Funeral if they ever listened to the album "Under the Sign of the Black Mark" by Bathory. Things we take in rub off on us. Momma used to tell me, when catching me watching some sleazy Troma flicks on 'USA up all night', "turn that trash off... garbage IN, garbage OUT!"

[Mr Ares]

"I fail to see the distinction between Dune and WoT's worldbuilding. Both are, essentially, visions of our own distant future (and past as well, in Wot's case), so what makes one "truer"? Why is one considered invented and the other based upon?"

 

First off, without my having to scroll up a page or two... did anyone use the term 'based upon'?

Yes, Reeve did in the post I quoted. "The WoT is a world invented, rather than one based upon..."