Dark Prophecy

[Terez]

Your search engine is inferior, apparently. I searched 'yea,' in another engine because searching just 'yea' turns up words like 'years', and I got 392 results.

[FarShainMael]

Yes, you searched on 'yea,' (with a comma), not 'yea'. And in most of those examples 'yea' is used in its sense of 'yes'.

 

The engine I used, when searching on 'yea,' gives 242 matches. No 'years' anywhere.

 

OK, yoniy0. Choose!

[yoniy0]

When presented with a choice, it is my practice to choose the one that allows me to think or do as I would regardless. So I think you know which way I'd go, given a chance

 

Though I think this simply demonstrates that the use of the word (when not intended as a simple 'yes') varies, hence the need for English majors. It can't all come down to the KJV; more recent texts should be considered, for example. If memory serves, @FSM, you're an electrical engineer by training (I don't think you've ever told me if you still practice)?

[Terez]

You should ask Peter Ahlstrom on Twitter. He's a whiz. I'd ask him but you know what your question is better than I do.

[Stumpo]

Hey folks,

 

So,

 

I just finished ToM, and I was spending some time thinking about the dark prophecy at the end. Here is my little theory on what it was.

 

I think the prophecy is what could have happened in THIS book. The three were walking on a knife edge this book, and it could have gone either way. This Dark Prophecy, and most of the Prophecies of the light are at odds, there is no way they can both happen.

 

It was up to Graendal to "fulfill" this prophecy by killing Perrin in this book, her failure to do so is what gets her killed at the end.

 

So lets recap the prophecy.

 

" In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who Will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one who Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself. "

 

Who are the players:

One Eyed Fool (Mat)

First Among Vermin (Rand)

Fallen Blacksmith / Broken Wolf (Perrin)

Death (Ishamael / Modidin)

Midnight Towers (Forsaken)

 

Ok so as I said earlier, I think this prophecy was placed at the end of the book to show us how things COULD have played out if it were fulfilled. You see. There are a few key things which happened during the book which negate this prophecy.

 

The first line is setting the stage for the fulfillment.

 

When Mat is in the Tower of Ghenji, and Rand is ready to release the Dark One in the final days of Perrin's reluctance to accept his nature as a leader. That's how I read it.

 

Next we have the "Meat" of the prophecy: And Perrin, the one who Moridin has known will fall and be consumed by the Forsaken.

 

Moridin orders Graendal to deal with Perin. That means that Moridin knows the threat that Perrin represents. And even gives Graendal a dreamspike to deal with him. It's obviously a VERY dangerous, and powerful tool.

 

Broken Wolf is a loaded term. Perrin WAS the Broken Wolf for a long time, refusing to accept his wolfbrother nature for fear of becoming like Noam. Hopper shows Perrin that he can be Both Young Bull, and Perrin Aybara. Hence he is no longer the "Broken Wolf".

Perrin is able to sense the trap that Graendal has created using the dreamspike, and is able to free himself and his people from it. His battle w/ Slayer, and the death of Hopper are what finally galvanize Perrin into accepting who and what he has/is become. So you see, this prophecy is already beginning to unravel. By the time the trap is sprung Perrin has accepted his Wolfnature, and is Broken no longer. If he had been broken who knows what could have happened, Death or acceptance of the shadow similar to the Slayer.

 

The final section of the Prophecy deals with the "Broken Champion" this is obviously Rand (Again). A very important thing to remember here is just like in the previous section Neither the Wolf nor the Champion ARE Broken anymore. Rand even admits as much to Egghead in the WT. "I was Broken...but now I am Re-forged"

 

We witness that pivotal event twice in the books. Once in tGS, and again in ToM (from perrin's perspective). This final piece is what leads me to believe that the prophecy was meant as a point of reference to think back and look at how things could have gone either way, but the character's very natures themselves caused the prophecy to fall apart.

 

Finally, remember that this prophecy predicts the victory of the Dark One at SG, how can that AND the prophecies of the light happen. There is no way. That prophecy HAD to fail for Rand to seal the DO in SG. If it had been fulfilled, if Perrin had lost his heart, and humanity it all very well could have played out exactly as this prophecy foretells.

 

Anyway,

 

That's my take on it.

[yoniy0]

You should ask Peter Ahlstrom on Twitter. He's a whiz.

Yes, but I'd have a hard time stepping around the RAFO. I'm not sure he would appreciate the sneakiness.

 

@Algai'd'siswai, that's very interesting. Indeed, there's a conflict between what we know of Foretellings and what Lanfear (and later Rand) said about prophecies.

But I'm not convinced that the two prophecies we know of (namely KC's "his blood shall give us the Light" and "In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow" as opposed to "the Lord of the Evening [...] shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful") strictly collide. It's possible that the DO will prevail for a time, only to be Sealed away in the end.

[Mandro]

am I wrong for finding the "yea" thing hilarious? maybe they should start a new post and create a breakdown of all the yea's on all of the most viewed threads.

[yoniy0]

Sure, make fun of the foreign kid.

[Mandro]

No, I'm serious. Someone dedicating as much attention to all of the "yea"'s we use in the most popular threads, and breaking it down like some of us do the prophesies and forshadowing and articles and interviews would be high entertainment.

[Rcurran]

I just wanted to jumP in here and say that the person who was saying a while back that a great general dying was treated a little roughly. The person said quite clearly that (s)he was not fully committed to the theory yet still wanted to make a point and I think it was brushed off too quickly.

 

A great general dying would effect a lot of people and shake their will. It's a bit much to say it wouldn't just look at real life examples and you can see that it's an accurate statement. There's thousands of examples.

 

Furthermore, the other poster suggested it could be during s battle with up to a quarter of the lights forces, that's quite significant and should be not simply written off as inactivate.

 

To add more weight to this consider that there would be an awful lot of men in that army who would have a shattered morale. Now consider the prophesy, it doesn't mention women or people or nations or anything all about numbers or geography. All it says is men. Like an army's worth.

 

I see the idea of the broken wolf being ilturade as plausible and not only this i would say if it were a prophesy of the DR it would be a little better don't you think? Maybe even be heralded a little or mentioned a few times like "hey Rand it's prophesied that us forsaken will consume and destroy you n stuff" maybe? And that maybe Moridin wouldn't be going about satin that he wants rand or demy would be like "I wanna get him just me not all of us like in yon prophesy"

 

Think it's worth considering a little more and the other posters point was simply that ilturade was written off too easily because Terez reckons a great general dying, even during battle vein consumed by the forsaken right infrint of a quarter of the lights forces, wouldnt make men's will sake....

[Rcurran]

The spelling in my previous post is so bad it's beyond repair on my iPhone as the screen is too wee and I made so so many mistakes I'm sorry about that. Hope people reading this can guess what I am saying even though I sound deranged.

[Ferdawoon]

That's my take on it.

 

This is pretty much what I think as well (cut out the long quote to not flood the forum). That at least some the prophecies have already been fulfilled and that this is one of them.

Broken no longer, as they have both accepted their situations.

[Terez]

From Peter:

 

It just means yes. But it has a King James Bible feel to it, formal perhaps for effect...."yea" is a word that's at home in any prophecy.

Also, re: a few posts back, all prophecies will be fulfilled, even Dark Prophecies.

[Mandro]

I just wanted to jumP in here and say that the person who was saying a while back that a great general dying was treated a little roughly. The person said quite clearly that (s)he was not fully committed to the theory yet still wanted to make a point and I think it was brushed off too quickly.

 

A great general dying would effect a lot of people and shake their will. It's a bit much to say it wouldn't just look at real life examples and you can see that it's an accurate statement. There's thousands of examples.

 

Furthermore, the other poster suggested it could be during s battle with up to a quarter of the lights forces, that's quite significant and should be not simply written off as inactivate.

 

To add more weight to this consider that there would be an awful lot of men in that army who would have a shattered morale. Now consider the prophesy, it doesn't mention women or people or nations or anything all about numbers or geography. All it says is men. Like an army's worth.

 

I see the idea of the broken wolf being ilturade as plausible and not only this i would say if it were a prophesy of the DR it would be a little better don't you think? Maybe even be heralded a little or mentioned a few times like "hey Rand it's prophesied that us forsaken will consume and destroy you n stuff" maybe? And that maybe Moridin wouldn't be going about satin that he wants rand or demy would be like "I wanna get him just me not all of us like in yon prophesy"

 

Think it's worth considering a little more and the other posters point was simply that ilturade was written off too easily because Terez reckons a great general dying, even during battle vein consumed by the forsaken right infrint of a quarter of the lights forces, wouldnt make men's will sake....

 

A great general doesn't die until his army does, and if he dies earlier, he ain't much general.

 

I don't know about generals, but I was a Marine and I socialized with one of our unit's doc's. That guy was probably more protected than an infant held by a mother, while being carried by a fireman, guarded by a swat teamn.

 

You don't eff with a Platoon, or Company's Doc, Let alone their commanders. Anyone who can serve and let their general die before them means that they weren't a "great" general"

 

That effing doc got so much tail cuz he could pick fights he didn't have to wage, the jerk.

[Stumpo]

Hey,

 

There was also another thing I wanted to point out.

 

Perrin sides w/ Rand at the meetup, that means that his entire army is siding w/ Rand. That's like over 50k people or so. Quite a large number.

 

The importance of this is that Rand will come to that meeting with support already in place in AMoL. If Perrin was killed or had been turned to the shadow (consumed by the Midnight Towers). Then Rand would have lost a Stalwart and Loyal supporter, and who knows what the outcome of that meeting would have been.

 

One final point. Egwene as The Amyrlyn is making the SAME mistake that Latra Posae Decume did when Lews Therin tried to unite the WT in the previous age. The Fateful Concord or whatever it was called IS the reason that LTT failed in truly sealing the DO, and the Forsaken forever, AND she is ALSO the reason for the Taint (he he) on Saidin.

[Terez]

Umm, no. If Latra Posae had joined Lews Therin, then saidar would have been tainted as well.

[Stumpo]

Actually,

 

It's unclear if saidar or saidin would have been tainted. Rand doesn't seem to agree w/ you.

 

from WoT wikia Lews Therin Entry:

 

"The reason for the weakness of the seal has been theorized by Rand to have been the fact that only saidin was used to create the seal, as well as the reason the Dark One was able to counterstrike."

[Terez]

Actually,

 

It's unclear if saidar or saidin would have been tainted. Rand doesn't seem to agree w/ you.

 

from WoT wikia Lews Therin Entry:

 

"The reason for the weakness of the seal has been theorized by Rand to have been the fact that only saidin was used to create the seal, as well as the reason the Dark One was able to counterstrike."

Check the reference library link in my sig. Go to the interview database. This one is in several categories, but the Age of Legends category is probably most convenient. It's under the Budapest interviews.

 

Also, don't use the Wiki as a source. I don't think any of the true experts in the fandom do any editing there.

[PhoenixAngel]

ToM Chapter 51... A Testing.

 

“No,” Rand said. “This prophecy was like the others. A declaration of what might happen, not advice."

 

 

This quote kind of gives a lot of power to the argument that the dark prophecies are something that must happen for the DO to win that has already been avoided.

 

 

" In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who Will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.

 

Maybe all three of these happened already. Not just the first and the last.

 

"Al’Thor raised one hand, then thrust it—palm forward—toward the tide of Shadowspawn.

 

And they started to die."

 

 

He freed the entire city of Maradon,in doing so I think he may have freed Him who Will Destroy. We do not know if that is a good thing or a bad one from this perspective, we must assume.

 

 

We do not know who Demawhatshisface is so it may have been him or his best puppet. Freeing Ituralde may have been freeing Him who Destroy trollic arse far to well.

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one who Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself. "

 

That sounds to much like someone doing some destroying not being destroyed. Falling to the Midnight Towers may imply changing sides. Rand failed a lot of people before VoG, not all of them are accounted for.

 

One thing you can be sure of conventional thinking NEVER applies to a prophecy. I just thought I would try something less.......conventional.

 

 

 

I am sure I am wrong but hey what the heck .

[Stumpo]

Thanks for that bit!

 

The question then that I have is:

 

If the backblast would have tainted Saidin, and Saidar then how can you seal the DO? Unless maybe Rand uses the True Power?

[Terez]

Presumably the method that Lews Therin used is not the only way - far from it. Theoryland gets so many theories on how the Bore will be sealed, it's ridiculous. We don't have a lot of info to go on, but we do have good reason to suspect there is a better way. And the True Power seems the least logical to me, though I suspect it will play a part somewhere. Tel'aran'rhiod seems the most likely to me because of the relationship between Shayol Ghul and Tel'aran'rhiod. In a lot of ways, that's starting to become like the 'Nynaeve will rip Rand from Tel'aran'rhiod' theory for me. So much resonance with so many things in the plot. And of course, Egwene will likely be instrumental in fixing what Rand breaks. Dom has written a lot on this at Wotmania/rafo.com/13th Depository. I don't recall the details of his arguments, but he's the one that got me thinking about it.

 

Some have suggested seed-singing will play a part. Some think Callandor will be necessary. Some think Rand's blood itself will be necessary (whether it's actually his or Galad's or Slayer's or Perival Mantear's). Padan Fain, balefire, ta'verenness, etc. All of these things could be true.

[Rcurran]

e) All of the above.... Plus the body swap for good measure.

[Sleeper]

e) All of the above.... Plus the body swap for good measure.

Flaming monkey nipples, no , I hate the bodyswap theory. It seems like the kind of thing you'd find on Fringe or a really bad sci-fi movie.

 

Not dissing any fellow Fringe viewers out there, but that show has gotten a little wonky as of late.

[FarShainMael]

When presented with a choice, it is my practice to choose the one that allows me to think or do as I would regardless. So I think you know which way I'd go, given a chance

 

Though I think this simply demonstrates that the use of the word (when not intended as a simple 'yes') varies, hence the need for English majors. It can't all come down to the KJV; more recent texts should be considered, for example. If memory serves, @FSM, you're an electrical engineer by training (I don't think you've ever told me if you still practice)?

 

Er.. I don't think I've ever seen 'yea' used in an electronics textbook..

 

My field is electronics engineering rather than electrical, the difference might be summarised thus: in electronics we play with electrons and get them performing clever tricks (in everything from transistors to microprocessors) while electrical engineers make them work for their living hauling energy around! And yes, I retired a few months ago.

 

We were discussing the KJV because RJ has said specifically that it's been a major influence on him:

 

Amazon.com's Significant Seven 2006

 

Q. What book has had the most significant impact on your life?

RJ: The King James version of the bible. That seems a cliché, but I can't think of any other book that has had as large an impact in shaping who I am.

 

It's interesting to note, BTW, that the KJV was commssioned as a translation of the Bible from the original Greek to English (bypassing the Latin intermediary used by RCs) in a way which would be accessible to the English man-in-the-street, in their own vernacular. So while saying things like 'yea, verily, I sayeth unto thee' might be viewed as odd now, that was indeed they way they spoke at the time. But yea, it hath indeed retained some flavour that doth denote a deep significance, methinks.

[Terez]

e) All of the above.... Plus the body swap for good measure.

Flaming monkey nipples, no , I hate the bodyswap theory. It seems like the kind of thing you'd find on Fringe or a really bad sci-fi movie.

Sometimes I really wish DM had the rep system activated.

 

@yoniy0 - did you see the comments from Peter? He's probably the most notorious English major I know. ;)