Dark Prophecy

[FarShainMael]

You're free to theorize that destruction≠death in this case, but I didn't misquote it, and I can hardly be accused of taking something out of context when the full prophecy is quoted on the page.

 

It was a misquote because it was incomplete. You removed the phrase 'his destruction' and substituted 'his death' (out of the quote marks certainly). This substitution placed your own interpretation on the DP. If you're going to do that, you should make it clear that it is your own interpretation.

 

And, for all I know, your interpretation may be quite valid..

 

Also, I'm theorising not simply that destruction <> death, but that 'his destruction' may not mean 'the destruction of him' but 'the destruction by him'.

[Terez]

You're free to theorize that destruction≠death in this case, but I didn't misquote it, and I can hardly be accused of taking something out of context when the full prophecy is quoted on the page.

 

It was a misquote because it was incomplete. You removed the phrase 'his destruction' and substituted 'his death' (out of the quote marks certainly). This substitution placed your own interpretation on the DP. If you're going to do that, you should make it clear that it is your own interpretation.

That's what quote marks are for, darling.

[FarShainMael]

I have to point out that it showed the way your thoughts were moving, that you had mentally substituted 'death' for 'destruction' in the prophecy. Quote marks aren't emphatic enough to keep them separate.

 

JMO.

[Terez]

There's a difference between that and a misquote, or taking something out of context. Just saying.

[Entreri]

"I disagree, still. Niall died in an internal strife situation while the world was relatively at peace. If Ituralde were captured, or his forces were destroyed, or he were consumed by the shadow and converted in some manner, that would be earth shaking."

 

In the very unlikely event that it is Ituralde, "his destruction" indicates he will die. Death/Moridin does not know Iturlade: "the one whom Death has known".

 

I almost certain that Bashere will die (see Min's visions)...another Great General. They are too insignificant.

 

I do not see any reason why the Forsaken/Midnight Towers would target someone that insignificant who cannot channel. Ishamael has trouble directing the Forsaken go after far far more important targets in Perrin and Mat.

 

Only the major players are included in this Dark prophecy, someone like Iturlade does not belong.

[Finnssss22]

...but there are only five Great Captains.

 

Nitpicking here but there are only four left.

Davram Bashere

Gareth Bryne

Agelmar Jagad

Rodel Ituralde

Pedron Niall

 

 

(Unless you're counting Mat of course )

[SethBaker]

I'm with Terez - it's Rand. I'll refrain from reciting all of the other things she mentioned, and just reiterate the close relationship he has with Moridin. Literally, "Death." With a capital D. Which is what is in the prophecy. Not "death," but "Death."

 

At Shadar Logoth, a link was forged between Rand and Moridin. Death knows him in an almost biblical sense.

[Phelix]

"I disagree, still. Niall died in an internal strife situation while the world was relatively at peace. If Ituralde were captured, or his forces were destroyed, or he were consumed by the shadow and converted in some manner, that would be earth shaking."

 

In the very unlikely event that it is Ituralde, "his destruction" indicates he will die. Death/Moridin does not know Iturlade: "the one whom Death has known".

 

I almost certain that Bashere will die (see Min's visions)...another Great General. They are too insignificant.

 

I do not see any reason why the Forsaken/Midnight Towers would target someone that insignificant who cannot channel. Ishamael has trouble directing the Forsaken go after far far more important targets in Perrin and Mat.

 

Only the major players are included in this Dark prophecy, someone like Iturlade does not belong.

 

"His destruction" can indicate many things, as previously discussed in this thread. Personal destruction can be more than simply dying. If everything he'd ever worked for, every person he'd ever cared about, and every purpose he put his name to were to be brought down, killed, or dismantled... that would be destruction, all without killing him. I don't think that's what is going to happen, but I think leaping to destruction = his death is premature. It is one possibility, yes, but it is not set in stone.

 

Prophecies do not have to speak to the current time period that we are reading, and we don't know that Moridin hasn't known Ituralde. The fact that Graendal misinterpreted the meaning in this book could easily point to the fact that its correct fulfillment is yet to come.

 

As an individual, yes. Ituralde and Bashere are both too insignificant, but in their capacity as Generals, leading large forces, they take on greater significance.

 

That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it, but I still find the idea that with six or so named figures only one of the names would be a red herring. So, I think it is more likely that the prophecy speaks to a person who can be identified as the Broken Wolf, and I do not think Terez's handful of quotes count as a significant enough link for this prophecy to make sense. That is my opinion though.

 

 

...but there are only five Great Captains.

 

Nitpicking here but there are only four left.

Davram Bashere

Gareth Bryne

Agelmar Jagad

Rodel Ituralde

Pedron Niall

 

 

(Unless you're counting Mat of course )

 

I wasn't counting Mat, I was just being careless. Thank you for the correction.

[herid]

A number of people commented on the fact that Death is capitalized in "the one whom Death has known". I certainly agree that it's important but I do find the mere fact that it is capitalized quite silly. The prophecies were given orally so nothing should be capitalized in them. At best, such capitalization would be an interpretation by the person recording the prophecy. That said, I'm sure that's not it and the fact that Death is capitalized is significant.

[MatrixM]

Elaida was pretty conscious of what she was saying when she had the foretelling in book one. Couldn't the darkfriend have been in the same state and written it down?

[Annia]

I'm with Terez - it's Rand. I'll refrain from reciting all of the other things she mentioned, and just reiterate the close relationship he has with Moridin. Literally, "Death." With a capital D. Which is what is in the prophecy. Not "death," but "Death."

 

At Shadar Logoth, a link was forged between Rand and Moridin. Death knows him in an almost biblical sense.

 

I'm with Terez, too. I don't find it at all implausiable that prophesies about Tarmon Gaidon talk about Rand A LOT. Only Perrin and Rand are important enough to be mentioned in this context, because none of the others are Taveren's without whom the Shadow will win. Only Rand fits the other characteristics given, in my opinion.

 

It fits so well. This ties into so many theories that we've been considering for years, that I'm no longer going to entertain the thought that right before the last book there was a new revelation that changed everything we expect to happen. Most of us have expected Rand to die for years and years.

 

The dark friends choose to believe that dark prophesies promise victory for the shadow and interpret everything accordingly. I definitely believe that this prophesy will come true, just probably not in a way that they expect.

[mb]

And the line before refers to last days of Fallen Blacksmith.

No, it refers to the "last days of [his] pride". And the line in question begins with "Yea, and the Broken Wolf". Now, if they were one and the same, why add the "yea, and"?

The "Yea, and" was to me one indicator of them being the same. The Karaethon Cycle prophecy being another indicator.

"Yea, and" might be paraphrased as "In continuation,".

[yoniy0]

"Yea, and" might be paraphrased as "In continuation,".

Hmm, I can see it as "indeed". I'd like to hear what other people think about this, preferably English majors

Still, referring to the "Broken Wolf", and then clarifying that he's "the one whom Death has known", strikes me as introducing a new player.

[Terez]

A number of people commented on the fact that Death is capitalized in "the one whom Death has known". I certainly agree that it's important but I do find the mere fact that it is capitalized quite silly. The prophecies were given orally so nothing should be capitalized in them. At best, such capitalization would be an interpretation by the person recording the prophecy. That said, I'm sure that's not it and the fact that Death is capitalized is significant.

If the prophecy was originally in the Old Tongue, then it's not a matter of interpretation. Moridin capitalized, meaning 'The Grave' or 'Death', was used in this fashion as a proper noun, but moridin not-capitalized meant 'a grave or tomb', which makes no sense in the context. Obviously the capital was intended by the speaker (and it may be that some Aes Sedai transcribed their own Foretellings).

 

"Yea, and" might be paraphrased as "In continuation,".

Hmm, I can see it as "indeed". I'd like to hear what other people think about this, preferably English majors

English majors not required. It's used often in early translations of the Bible into English, notably King James. It's basically just a pompous interjection that lets you know that everything that follows is surely true. Sometimes it's 'Yea, and verily I say unto thee' or some such. I'd advise not reading much into it.

[yoniy0]

English majors not required. It's used often in early translations of the Bible into English, notably King James. It's basically just a pompous interjection that lets you know that everything that follows is surely true. Sometimes it's 'Yea, and verily I say unto thee' or some such. I'd advise not reading much into it.

That seems to align rather well with my suggestion of "indeed", doesn't it? Except that "indeed" implies you've already begun making your point in the previous sentence, and you haven't told me whether it's the same with "Yea, and".

[Mandro]

I still say it's perrin, though there is a case for it to pointing to any of the three TV, Rand particularly in the early books is referenced as a wolf a number of times, matt is called a wolf (but only socially I think) a couple of times. Though Wolf is kinda in your face being perrin.

 

Fain as first among vermin is possible, but in the prologue for eye of the world didn't ishamael call LTT (the amyrlin of sorts) the first of the companions or whatever the term is (I alway screw up specific terms unless I have it in front of me.) So the first among vermin I SORTA think of as Egwene.

[Terez]

It's often a speech-starter in the KJV Bible, so it doesn't necessarily imply anything about what comes before. It can, but when it does, it only implies that it's all true.

[yoniy0]

Fine. I hate this specific limitation, it's simply insurmountable; no matter what I do, I'll always have to blindly defer to other people's judgement. Okay, rant over.

I still maintain that the fact the text clarifies the "Broken Wolf" is "the one whom Death has known" makes it unlikely it's the same person as the "Fallen Blacksmith". For rhetoric considerations, I mean.

[Terez]

Trust me, I understand. In my research I have to try to read between the lines of Chopin's letters, which are usually in Polish but sometimes in French, and either way they are often peppered with German, Italian, and Latin. Very frustrating.

[mb]

It seems people are ignoring the "Wolf" part of the title; which to me implies a wolfbrother.

[herid]

A number of people commented on the fact that Death is capitalized in "the one whom Death has known". I certainly agree that it's important but I do find the mere fact that it is capitalized quite silly. The prophecies were given orally so nothing should be capitalized in them. At best, such capitalization would be an interpretation by the person recording the prophecy. That said, I'm sure that's not it and the fact that Death is capitalized is significant.

If the prophecy was originally in the Old Tongue, then it's not a matter of interpretation. Moridin capitalized, meaning 'The Grave' or 'Death', was used in this fashion as a proper noun, but moridin not-capitalized meant 'a grave or tomb'

sorry, but how do we know this? the only quotes I remember is that Moridin means death in the old tongue.

[Terez]

Interview Database, Old Tongue category. RJ wrote a whole letter on it.

[yoniy0]

Also, regarding "Moridin" alone, that word goes back as far as TEotW. Loial reads it from the HoV: "Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin".

[herid]

Interview Database, Old Tongue category. RJ wrote a whole letter on it.

ok, thanks. I found the quote. here it is for those who might be interested:

 

One of the difficulties is context and flexibility: for example, "al" can mean "the" or "of the." The word "cuebiyar" can mean simply "heart," or "my heart," or when capitalized, "the heart" as in the heart of a people or nation. The word "moridin" means "grave" or "tomb," but when capitalized it means "the grave," standing for "death." It is intended to be a language of subtlety, where the meanings of words can change to a great extent according to context. Remember Moiraine's comments on the difficulty of translation.

still, this means that it makes sense to capitalize "Moridin" in the Old Tongue but why capitalize in the translation? the word "Moridin" when translated into the current language means "death". It doesn't mean "Death" with a capital "D". Many other capitalizations in that prophecy are surely nonsensical for an orally given prophecy. For example, look at all the capitalizations in the following passage:

And He shall take our

eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and he shall take our skin, for

our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will

we praise.

[FarShainMael]

"Yea, and" might be paraphrased as "In continuation,".

Hmm, I can see it as "indeed". I'd like to hear what other people think about this, preferably English majors

English majors not required. It's used often in early translations of the Bible into English, notably King James. It's basically just a pompous interjection that lets you know that everything that follows is surely true. Sometimes it's 'Yea, and verily I say unto thee' or some such. I'd advise not reading much into it.

 

Well, it's a bit more complicated than that..

 

Sorry about this, but my research button has been pushed!

 

There is an online version of KJV here. Doing a search on 'YEA' yields 8 results:

 

8 Matches for YEA  -   Page 1 of 1 - Sort by Book Order

 

Job 33:14

 

For God speaketh once, YEA twice, [yet man] perceiveth it not.

 

Ecclesiastes 8:17

 

Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek [it] out, yet he shall not find [it]; YEA further; though a wise [man] think to know [it], yet shall he not be able to find [it].

 

Luke 11:28

 

But he said, YEA rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 

Romans 8:34

 

Who [is] he that condemneth? [it is] Christ that died, YEA rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

2 Corinthians 1:17

 

When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be YEA YEA, and nay nay?

 

2 Corinthians 1:18

 

But [as] God [is] true, our word toward you was not YEA and nay.

 

2 Corinthians 1:19

 

For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [even] by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not YEA and nay, but in him was YEA.

 

James 5:12

 

But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your YEA be YEA; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

 

This is page: 1 of 1

 

There isn't a 'Yea, and' anywhere. Instead we have:

 

'Yea twice' : emphasis

'Yea further' : extension

'Yea rather' : contradiction

 

Several instances of Yea = yes.

 

So I stand by my interpretation of 'Yea, and' = addition.