Discuss the Inclusion of a Gay Character

[capuga]

So because RJ said…

 

I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course.

 

- The Official Robert Jordan Blog, October 6, 2005

 

 

 

This is the quote you are referring to correct?

 

That's the one that came to mind. There's more on the topic, though.

 

Then please elaborate, give me the exact text you referring to.

 

Why? The quote provided is plenty for the answer to your question as to why it could be felt that a gay (male) character was overdue.

 

 

To you perhaps to me this Quote is just RJ stating that yes there are gay people in this world but that’s not really the story is it? See that’s the point I am trying to make. So a character is gay so what. My point is people who keeping trying to make an issue were there isn’t one, well that makes THEM the problem, not the issue. If the story had a gay character and that was important to the plot then it would have been part of the story by now don’t you think? RJ was making a side comment not a declaration. You can wish beans where steak but at the end of the day your having beans.

 

My problem with the way your question was phrased was that you seemed to be refusing to acknowledge the argument. You asked why people could feel a gay character is overdue. The argument is that if RJ says there are gay people in the story and that it's not abnormal (which the quote provided shows), then it is very reasonable to expect one to have shown up by this point in the story. RJ long-windedly described all kinds of things. He's introduced gay female characters. He introduced polygamists. A lecherous man in a woman's body who now seems to be also attracted to men (or at least likes to tease them). When RJ puts this much effort into describing this world and the people in it, it is strange that a strictly gay man has not been seen when RJ says that they exist.

 

Whether or not it's tokenism to include them is a separate argument. You can also disagree with me that it's strange we haven't seen a gay male (RJ's statement that he just hasn't had a good reason to show a POV from one would be a good argument here). But you asked a question and a reasonable answer was given. Further quotes are unnecessary to the point of answer given.

 

The point is it doesn’t matter to anyone except those that wish people paid them a little more attention.

 

Was Rand and his three girlfriends (or Rhuarc and his two wifes) written in just to pander to the polyagamist community. No, it was just a detail that was included about part of this world. It influences how the characters act. It gives us a deeper view and fleshes out these characters just like any other detail we learn about them. Most of which have no real bearing on the plot. It's just merely a character detail like many of the others that are described throughout the books.

[SethBaker]

So then Seth that was the Quote you were refering to.

 

It's the only one I can find in a cursory search, right now. So, for the sake of argument, we'll say yes. It's still completely sufficient to support all of my arguments.

[Canis Rufus]

people are complaining that characters' sexuality might be an unnecessary detail?

 

First Yes it is unnecessary to THIS story. When I look at people I do not assess the looks of their “sexual persuasion,” tell me how do you do that? But do I see if they have long or short hair tall, skinny, short, fat any number of defining physical attributes. That is what they look like, contrary your implications here you cannot look “Gay” that my friend is bigotry. People simply look like they look we don’t have to wear a uniform to be gay/straight/bi you wear that in your heart. I also do not look at the list of historical people and try to determine who they might have shagged that night. Do you? When you meet someone do you say, “Hello! Are you gay!” I think not. It is only important because you wish it to be.

 

Second We have had how many books now and all of a sudden he wants to deal with this in the last book. Really, I mean really. Pardon the Joke here but this is not Broke Back "Wheel." This just isn't the story here, people want it to be the story, but to me thats just as sad as people who hate gay people. It's close minded any way you want to see it. Putting something in for the sake of it being there is just insulting.

[mb]

Its Gawyn. Egwene is the clue, and Galad is the red herring.

This I would count as a joke.

 

By the way, the opening post tells that the "who" is not to be disscussed in this thread.

[Suttree]

Second We have had how many books now and all of a sudden he wants to deal with this in the last book. Really, I mean really. Pardon the Joke here but this is not Broke Back "Wheel." This just isn't the story here, people want it to be the story, but to me thats just as sad as people who hate gay people. It's close minded any way you want to see it. Putting something in for the sake of it being there is just insulting.

 

It is a detail that fleshes out the world and makes it more realistic like any other. Nothing more, nothing less. How is that insulting? In fact based on RJ's earlier quotes about gay male characters and his thoughts below on what he was attempting to do with the WoT it fits perfectly. As has been mentioned it is unrealistic that it hasn't come up until now.

 

RJ Barnes and Noble Chat 11 November 1997

I wanted to write a fantasy that reflected the real world. With characters who reflected real people -- not specific people -- but characters who were real people.

[Nightstrike]

It's just a story. Regardless of the flirting, marrying, and so on. Whoever Mat spends the bed with, or Elaida, or whoever/whatever.

[SethBaker]

people are complaining that characters' sexuality might be an unnecessary detail?

 

First Yes it is unnecessary to THIS story. When I look at people I do not assess the looks of their “sexual persuasion,” tell me how do you do that? But do I see if they have long or short hair tall, skinny, short, fat any number of defining physical attributes. That is what they look like, contrary your implications here you cannot look “Gay” that my friend is bigotry. People simply look like they look we don’t have to wear a uniform to be gay/straight/bi you wear that in your heart. I also do not look at the list of historical people and try to determine who they might have shagged that night. Do you? When you meet someone do you say, “Hello! Are you gay!” I think not. It is only important because you wish it to be.

 

Second We have had how many books now and all of a sudden he wants to deal with this in the last book. Really, I mean really. Pardon the Joke here but this is not Broke Back "Wheel." This just isn't the story here, people want it to be the story, but to me thats just as sad as people who hate gay people. It's close minded any way you want to see it. Putting something in for the sake of it being there is just insulting.

 

I implied no such thing. If you inferred it, that's your problem. Notice I mentioned Shienaran baths? RJ went out of his way to describe what people DID. Sexuality is one of those things. He described straight activity and lesbian activity. It's not unreasonable for Brandon to write gay activity. It fits the world.

 

My POINT was that he described all sorts of behavior that was not necessary for advancing the plot. What you inferred was NOT what I was saying.

 

You don't know why Brandon put it in there. I'm not saying it needs to be in there, just that it's fine (and, honestly, positive) that it is. You're all accusing him of tokenism when he indicated that he wrote the character in the context of a specific discussion with Luckers, Terez, him (and myself), and the context does not support that claim. It's in the last book because that's where it wound up being.

 

It was overdue because of simple probability.

[Nightstrike]

"Spends the bed with"? I should have written "spends the night with" or "shares a bed with". Well, whatever, it's true either way.

[OptimusPrime]

Its Gawyn. Egwene is the clue, and Galad is the red herring.

This I would count as a joke.

 

Your interpretation would be correct.

 

By the way, the opening post tells that the "who" is not to be discussed in this thread.

 

Indeed it did, Im sorry if I have offended you or anyone else. The aim of the joke was supposed to be that Egwene is, in fact, a man.

[yoniy0]

Putting something in for the sake of it being there is just insulting.

Can I ask that you refer to my last post and tell me your thoughts about it?

[SethBaker]

Putting something in for the sake of it being there is just insulting.

 

Such as mentioning the way Shienarans bathe. Clearly it's tokenism to attract traditionalist Japanese readers. Very insulting.

[Terez]

By the way, the opening post tells that the "who" is not to be discussed in this thread.

 

Indeed it did, Im sorry if I have offended you or anyone else. The aim of the joke was supposed to be that Egwene is, in fact, a man.

I believe we are allowed to discuss the 'who' part now since the other thread was locked. I gather that the point of splitting the thread was to allow people to discuss 'who' without all of the annoying objections to the inclusion itself. Since that didn't work, the thread was locked.

[OptimusPrime]

By the way, the opening post tells that the "who" is not to be discussed in this thread.

 

Indeed it did, Im sorry if I have offended you or anyone else. The aim of the joke was supposed to be that Egwene is, in fact, a man.

I believe we are allowed to discuss the 'who' part now since the other thread was locked. I gather that the point of splitting the thread was to allow people to discuss 'who' without all of the annoying objections to the inclusion itself. Since that didn't work, the thread was locked.

 

Ah I see. Still, its a bit of a touchy subject, I shouldn't really have made a joke about it.

[Canis Rufus]

 

First Yes it is unnecessary to THIS story. When I look at people I do not assess the looks of their “sexual persuasion,” tell me how do you do that? But do I see if they have long or short hair tall, skinny, short, fat any number of defining physical attributes. That is what they look like, contrary your implications here you cannot look “Gay” that my friend is bigotry. People simply look like they look we don’t have to wear a uniform to be gay/straight/bi you wear that in your heart. I also do not look at the list of historical people and try to determine who they might have shagged that night. Do you? When you meet someone do you say, “Hello! Are you gay!” I think not. It is only important because you wish it to be.

 

 

Second We have had how many books now and all of a sudden he wants to deal with this in the last book. Really, I mean really. Pardon the Joke here but this is not Broke Back "Wheel." This just isn't the story here, people want it to be the story, but to me thats just as sad as people who hate gay people. It's close minded any way you want to see it. Putting something in for the sake of it being there is just insulting.

 

It is a detail that fleshes out the world and makes it more realistic like any other. Nothing more, nothing less. How is that insulting? In fact based on RJ's earlier quotes about gay male characters and his thoughts below on what he was attempting to do with the WoT it fits perfectly. As has been mentioned it is unrealistic that it hasn't come up until now.

 

RJ Barnes and Noble Chat 11 November 1997

I wanted to write a fantasy that reflected the real world. With characters who reflected real people -- not specific people -- but characters who were real people.

 

 

Again to add it in at this point serves no purpose other than pandering, the character development part is over we are at the conclusion and there has been on unrequited gay love sub plot. There is no known gay person that is suddenly going to jump out of the closet to fulfill some grand scheme or story line.

 

If it is just ‘oh by the way Bob over there, yea um he’s gay’ on with the story, well then you tell me how that serves the story now. Do you think he has the time or the plot room to add this into the story? You tell me, how this can be done in any way that suits the story and doesn’t come off looking like it was just cramped in there to be sensational. It’s a farce and sadly too many people don’t see it. That is what this discussion should be about, because that my friend is sad. Nobody wants to be the pony show its humiliating. You want to write the gay fantasy hero then write it, grow a pair and do it. Don’t toss it in at the end because that’s all you think the character is worth and it might get you some press coverage.

 

 

Lastly I don't need to be gay to be real, RJ was saying that the story should be real. As in real reactions real emotions and real responces to fantasic events not REAL GAY. If your life story hinges on rather or not someone is gay perhaps you should think about that.

[SethBaker]

 

First Yes it is unnecessary to THIS story. When I look at people I do not assess the looks of their “sexual persuasion,” tell me how do you do that? But do I see if they have long or short hair tall, skinny, short, fat any number of defining physical attributes. That is what they look like, contrary your implications here you cannot look “Gay” that my friend is bigotry. People simply look like they look we don’t have to wear a uniform to be gay/straight/bi you wear that in your heart. I also do not look at the list of historical people and try to determine who they might have shagged that night. Do you? When you meet someone do you say, “Hello! Are you gay!” I think not. It is only important because you wish it to be.

 

 

Second We have had how many books now and all of a sudden he wants to deal with this in the last book. Really, I mean really. Pardon the Joke here but this is not Broke Back "Wheel." This just isn't the story here, people want it to be the story, but to me thats just as sad as people who hate gay people. It's close minded any way you want to see it. Putting something in for the sake of it being there is just insulting.

 

It is a detail that fleshes out the world and makes it more realistic like any other. Nothing more, nothing less. How is that insulting? In fact based on RJ's earlier quotes about gay male characters and his thoughts below on what he was attempting to do with the WoT it fits perfectly. As has been mentioned it is unrealistic that it hasn't come up until now.

 

RJ Barnes and Noble Chat 11 November 1997

I wanted to write a fantasy that reflected the real world. With characters who reflected real people -- not specific people -- but characters who were real people.

 

 

Again to add it in at this point serves no purpose other than pandering, the character development part is over we are at the conclusion and there has been on unrequited gay love sub plot. There is no known gay person that is suddenly going to jump out of the closet to fulfill some grand scheme or story line.

 

You and the people who agree with you keep repeating that it serves no point other than pandering. Have you read the book? Do you know how it will be introduced? Are you certain that it will be substantively different than the other actions and traits that are described but which serve no plot purpose?

 

You are making a lot of presumptions, and coming to a conclusion that is absurd if you replace it with anything else substantial. Is it relevant that the Shienarans bathe in public baths? Not really. It might add a bit to the story here or there, but it's not relevant. Yet I don't have a problem with its inclusion.

 

Since you don't know why Brandon decided to include it, perhaps you should hesitate to throw around words like "pandering."

 

Even if it serves absolutely no point and IS nothing but pandering, I'll still take it over book after book of braid-tugging, arms-crossing-under-breasts, Main-Character-A-thinking-that-Main-Characters-B-and-C-are-better-with-women-than-he-is, which serve no plot point either.

 

If it is just ‘oh by the way Bob over there, yea um he’s gay’ on with the story, well then you tell me how that serves the story now. Do you think he has the time or the plot room to add this into the story? You tell me, how this can be done in any way that suits the story and doesn’t come off looking like it was just cramped in there to be sensational. It’s a farce and sadly too many people don’t see it. That is what this discussion should be about, because that my friend is sad. Nobody wants to be the pony show its humiliating. You want to write the gay fantasy hero then write it, grow a pair and do it. Don’t toss it in at the end because that’s all you think the character is worth and it might get you some press coverage.

 

And what if it's not that?

 

I am in the planning stages of a fantasy novel/series, and I do think one of my main characters will probably be bisexual or homosexual. I'm not sure yet. It won't be for a plot purpose, but it's also not for pandering. It's for realism. And realistically, not all of the heroes in the world are young, white, straight men.

 

It's not about press coverage. You can tell that if you know anything about Brandon at all. It either serves a plot purpose, or it enriches the world. He CHERISHES these books. He's not trying to get a few inches of column space on page 17 of the New York Times.

 

Lastly I don't need to be gay to be real, RJ was saying that the story should be real. As in real reactions real emotions and real responces to fantasic events not REAL GAY. If your life story hinges on rather or not someone is gay perhaps you should think about that.

 

What the christ? "real reactions real emotions and real respones to fantas[t]ic events not REAL GAY"? He said the story should be real. That means REAL EVERYTHING.

[Suttree]

 

First Yes it is unnecessary to THIS story. When I look at people I do not assess the looks of their “sexual persuasion,” tell me how do you do that? But do I see if they have long or short hair tall, skinny, short, fat any number of defining physical attributes. That is what they look like, contrary your implications here you cannot look “Gay” that my friend is bigotry. People simply look like they look we don’t have to wear a uniform to be gay/straight/bi you wear that in your heart. I also do not look at the list of historical people and try to determine who they might have shagged that night. Do you? When you meet someone do you say, “Hello! Are you gay!” I think not. It is only important because you wish it to be.

 

 

Second We have had how many books now and all of a sudden he wants to deal with this in the last book. Really, I mean really. Pardon the Joke here but this is not Broke Back "Wheel." This just isn't the story here, people want it to be the story, but to me thats just as sad as people who hate gay people. It's close minded any way you want to see it. Putting something in for the sake of it being there is just insulting.

 

It is a detail that fleshes out the world and makes it more realistic like any other. Nothing more, nothing less. How is that insulting? In fact based on RJ's earlier quotes about gay male characters and his thoughts below on what he was attempting to do with the WoT it fits perfectly. As has been mentioned it is unrealistic that it hasn't come up until now.

 

RJ Barnes and Noble Chat 11 November 1997

I wanted to write a fantasy that reflected the real world. With characters who reflected real people -- not specific people -- but characters who were real people.

 

 

Again to add it in at this point serves no purpose other than pandering, the character development part is over we are at the conclusion and there has been on unrequited gay love sub plot. There is no known gay person that is suddenly going to jump out of the closet to fulfill some grand scheme or story line.

 

If it is just ‘oh by the way Bob over there, yea um he’s gay’ on with the story, well then you tell me how that serves the story now. Do you think he has the time or the plot room to add this into the story? You tell me, how this can be done in any way that suits the story and doesn’t come off looking like it was just cramped in there to be sensational. It’s a farce and sadly too many people don’t see it. That is what this discussion should be about, because that my friend is sad. Nobody wants to be the pony show its humiliating. You want to write the gay fantasy hero then write it, grow a pair and do it. Don’t toss it in at the end because that’s all you think the character is worth and it might get you some press coverage.

 

 

Lastly I don't need to be gay to be real, RJ was saying that the story should be real. As in real reactions real emotions and real responces to fantasic events not REAL GAY. If your life story hinges on rather or not someone is gay perhaps you should think about that.

 

The bolded bit made me LOL. "I don't need to be gay to be real", "REAL GAY"(shouted for some reason) what does that even mean?

 

Easy "Captain-General", who is the one getting all worked up here? What part of it's a detail that makes the world more realistic are you not getting? What RJ said is he wants his story to reflect the real world. That would include gay males as a minor detail, especially considering we have seen numerous mentions of gay females. Why don't you go back and read the origins of how this came about so you have a better understanding of the situation. To me any detail that makes the story more realistic is a good thing.

 

As for it being crammed in to be sensational how can you even make that distinction before you read it? For the record how it is written will go a long way in my final determination on the issue. I trust that Harriet would not allow anything that goes against RJ's vision or would cheapen the series as a whole.

[yoniy0]

Do you think he has the time or the plot room to add this into the story? You tell me, how this can be done in any way that suits the story and doesn’t come off looking like it was just cramped in there to be sensational.

In the same way it was done with Androl. Are you seriously saying that there's no place to introduce new characters in the course of a single book and get the reader involved with them? Or that it souldn't be done? That's just not consistent with the story until now. How big a role has Seane had? Are we not better off for having met her? Seriously, do read my post and reply to it. Is there a reason you haven't?

[SethBaker]

As for it being crammed in to be sensational how can you even make that distinction before you read it? For the record how it is written will go a long way in my final determination on the issue. I trust that Harriet would not allow anything that goes against RJ's vision or would cheapen the series as a whole.

 

Bingo. I trust Brandon, but more to the point, I trust Harriet. If it's poorly written and feels like pandering, I won't like it. But I don't think that's going to be a problem. Brandon hasn't made any significant mistakes in writing yet, and I'm not afraid of him starting by handling this poorly.

[Puny]

I dk if I should laugh or cry reading all the replies. We´ve had qoutes from the man himself RJ as Suttree quoted

 

I wanted to write a fantasy that reflected the real world. With characters who reflected real people -- not specific people -- but characters who were real people.

 

Real people.. and some real people are gay. End of story. RJ has shown lesbian people, people who are lesbian in a specific, closed enviroment, people who are sadists, people who are crazy, people who are poly, people who are slaves, people who are submissive/dominant, people who are compassionate, envious, greedy, happy, devious and so on, you get the picture. One puny little character or a big one being a male gay... who gives a ____?

 

And I don´t think that dude being gay should/need be relevant to the plot whatsoever. It can be an Asha´man dying and thinking: "Oh no... and I wished I could´ve kissed Kendar (said gay man) or a king thinking of his secret lover Kendar who also died in the same way he is about to die, or a farmer thinking on his love Kendar that he hasn´t seen for 10 years now that he is preparing to fight the Shadow. Light, it can even be without dying, like a noble kissing Kendar and then they elope to some little forest in Godan cause he refuses to fight with the bloody Aes Sedai witches!

 

This is a non-issue. I would be upset if Brandon said: "Here now people, you prolly didn´t know this but all the channelers above the age of 40 are doomed to die because the Shadow has this ubercool sa´angreal that does this, or now all fans Rand will wake up and this will all have been a dream, or hey all... Mat realizes suddenly that his lovely wife Tuon is right and Mat wants to leash all marath´damane and kill Rand. All those things doesn´t fit the story and worldbuilding.

Having a gay Kendar does fit into the story, and the worldbuilding that RJ had build and Brandon is building upon.

 

We don´t know how Brandon is gonna refer to the gay Kendar. It can be a scene were Kendar thinks about his love- a man- or a scene where Kendar and other mysterious guy pound each other and then a Chosen kills them or just a sex scene. The Wheel weaves as it will and it´s gonna weave a gay man into this wether people have an issue with this or not.

 

End of long post.

[SethBaker]

Do you think he has the time or the plot room to add this into the story? You tell me, how this can be done in any way that suits the story and doesn’t come off looking like it was just cramped in there to be sensational.

In the same way it was done with Androl. Are you seriously saying that there's no place to introduce new characters in the course of a single book and get the reader involved with them? Or that it souldn't be done? That's just not consistent with the story until now. How big a role has Seane had? Are we not better off for having met her? Seriously, do read my post and reply to it. Is there a reason you haven't?

 

He was busy ignoring it while trying to get me to post verbatim Robert Jordan quotes.

[Nightstrike]

I doubt they will dwell on it, or make a bigger deal out of it than any other such relationship so far. People have partnered up, flirted, and so on, before in the series. Nothing dramatic about it, most of the time. I expect the same this time.

 

Edit: And by "such" I mean "romantic".

[Canis Rufus]

Ok here we go again

 

First The Shienarans bath houses where to define a culture in as much to teach the reader the level of intricacy that they inter-depended on each other and the amount of trust that comes with that. He was doing what is known as "world building," and yes that is very different than what we are discussing. There was a new place and we were learning about a whole culture. If at this point we don't know thier Gay does it really affect the story? I ask you to go back over what talked about last time. A hero is still a hero...

 

 

Second you complain that people keep tossing out the same rebuttals well you keep ignoring the responses and posing the same question. Look I get it your mind is made up. I only posted to share my opinion an opinion you clearly are not willing to think about. I disagree with you, deal with it, it appears I am not the only one. I apperciate your opinion I think your blind to the bigger picture but hey you know what they say bout opinion's... (Ironic a bit)

 

 

Third, I think it is classless and wrong and I doubt RJ would have ever done the likes. These quotes have at best been bastardised to mean what you want them to mean. Sorry dude still a bean. At the end of the day RJ was saying it’s not really the story. Sadly you don’t get that. The point is that it doesn’t matter so then why cram it in. What else can it serve? You seem smart you can figure this out. At the end of the day someone is getting paid; more press more coverage, more coverage more books sold more books sold bigger pay day. Don’t be fooled by PC garbage to believe that someone is fighting for a cause they don’t have a dog in.

[Nightstrike]

What's the most detailed scene so far? Having to do with the bedroom?

 

OK, there's been a lot of flirting, and so on, but that's mostly (always?) done with good taste.

 

Also a lot of comments about people being in love. That's not demeaning or anything. I don't think so, anyway.

[Terez]

@Canis Rufus - I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that you wouldn't object to a heterosexual preference being revealed in AMOL. That's all we need to know about you.

[Grig]

At the end of the day RJ was saying it’s not really the story. Sadly you don’t get that.

 

It's cute how you think you get it better than Robert Jordan's wife, who needs to sign off on any of these things. He must have wrote the series just for you, right? Only you can properly interpret his masterpiece.

 

Why are people even responding to this?