Balefire, unraveling the Pattern, and the Dark One

[Ferdawoon]

A thought occured to me reading about Baelfire on the Encycloaedia.

 

I'm not sure where I read it, if it was The Big White Book or in the series, but it says that both sides stopped using Balefire when they learned that it risked unraveling the Pattern.

Now, the thing is, if the Dark One win the Last Battle, Is the general tone not that he will stop all of creation? That he will stop the wheel of time?

Maybe I read that wrong, as in that he will unravel all of creation, and what he will do is just to rein in all eternity (how he can do that if the pattern have stopped, but I guess this have been discussed already and I just joined so I will leave that train of thought).

 

Anyway, If the Dark One is after the destruction of the world, why would he want to stop the use of Balefire? Because it gets lonely in the grave with no one there because everyone have been balefired out of existence?

 

 

Sorry for the crap explanation and I hope you understand what my question is. English is my 2nd language and it was a whole lot easier to form this post in my head than in print here on the forums =S

Especially since after starting to write this I realized that I might have misunderstood what will happen to the world if the Dark one win the last battle =S

[Ananta]

I don't think Dark One ever told his side to stop using it. Forsaken simply stopped, because excluding Moridin, they all think that after DO wins there will be world where they rule for the eternity.

[kyerik]

I agree- the forsaken stopped using balefire because they didn't want to destroy what they hoped would be their future empire.

[Luckers]

Alternatively, note that balefire puts a soul beyond the Dark One's power to recycle. This indicates that the Dark One cannot control [at least some of] the influences of Balefire.

 

Destroying reality in that way may cause things that are dangerous even to the Dark One--in effect you might use a bazooka to destroy a building, but not if your standing in the blast radius.

[FarShainMael]

Recall the LoC Prologue, in which the DO asks Demandred 'WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE'.

[herid]

A thought occured to me reading about Baelfire on the Encycloaedia.

 

I'm not sure where I read it, if it was The Big White Book or in the series, but it says that both sides stopped using Balefire when they learned that it risked unraveling the Pattern.

Now, the thing is, if the Dark One win the Last Battle, Is the general tone not that he will stop all of creation? That he will stop the wheel of time?

Maybe I read that wrong, as in that he will unravel all of creation, and what he will do is just to rein in all eternity (how he can do that if the pattern have stopped, but I guess this have been discussed already and I just joined so I will leave that train of thought).

 

Anyway, If the Dark One is after the destruction of the world, why would he want to stop the use of Balefire? Because it gets lonely in the grave with no one there because everyone have been balefired out of existence?

 

 

Sorry for the crap explanation and I hope you understand what my question is. English is my 2nd language and it was a whole lot easier to form this post in my head than in print here on the forums =S

Especially since after starting to write this I realized that I might have misunderstood what will happen to the world if the Dark one win the last battle =S

The DO does not mind using balefire at all. It's his followers who are afraid to do it. Remember that except for Ishy/Moridin all of them believe that there will be world left after the DO wins and that they will rule it. The DO promised them that but he is not exactly above lying , is he. they don't want the Pattern destroyed. as FarShainMael mentioned the DO asked Demandred to unleash balefire for him. It seems that Demandred has been doing just that but it has been happening off-screen. We've seen some indications of that. Perrin (KoD, Ch 26) and Faile (KoD, Ch 5) clearly experienced balescreams. Moreover, those were two separate incidents as Perrin feels a balescream late in the evening and Faile early in the morning. Some have speculated that it was Demandred balefiring something in the area (it's not clear what). The unraveling of the pattern that seem to worsen in later books might be a result of his activities as well.

[yoniy0]

The DO does not mind using balefire at all.

You don't know that. He wanted it used for a particular reason, but so did Rand multiple times. We have absolutely no proof that Demandred was using large quantities of BF to unravel the Pattern. It's an interesting theory, but that's as far as it goes at this stage.

 

As a side note, I once attempted to construct a theory regarding Demandred's location based on those weird occurrences. The differences in the descriptions gave me pause. I still have those quotes on my desktop, though.

[herid]

The DO does not mind using balefire at all.

You don't know that.

yes, it's not 100% confirmed ( few things are) but IMO it's quite safe to say at least that much. It's pretty clear that the DO wants to destroy the pattern. Moridin believes that (and BS said that he is on the same page with the DO about most things) and the light siders believe that too. When Cadsuane and Min discuss how Min's viewing can fail Min says that the only way is if the DO wins and the pattern is destroyed. while all these things are opinions they definitely sound like truth (especially the discussion about Min's viewings). I firmly believe that's correct and is the DO's final goal. Given that why would he care if someone uses balefire? All the better for him. His followers are a different matter as they are afraid of the consequences.

 

 

He wanted it used for a particular reason, but so did Rand multiple times. We have absolutely no proof that Demandred was using large quantities of BF to unravel the Pattern. It's an interesting theory, but that's as far as it goes at this stage.

 

 

ok, the part about the specific goals of Demandred using balefire is certainly a theory (a good one IMO). But we do know that the DO asked Demandred to use balefire for something way back in the prologue of Lord of Chaos. Unless you believe that Demandred was twiddling his thumbs for 8 books without acting on DO's orders and not being punished for it it's safe to say that he complied. The balescreams that Faile and Perrin felt are a good indication of that. what exactly he was balefiring and for what purpose is not clear.

[Thor]

I believe he balefired the entire Shara.

[yoniy0]

@herid, you completely missed my point. I don't doubt that Demandred did whatever it was the DO asked of him (LoC epilogue confirms as much) or that the DO wants the Pattern destroyed. It's just the part about Perrin's and Faile's experiences actually being Balescreams and that they were caused by Demandred's using massive amounts of BF as per the DO's instructions that's completely hypothetical. I personally don't believe that this is what the DO had in mind. Also, as I mentioned, I once tired making the case for those 'waves' which appear in KoD being the effects of BF use; it's not an easy case to make once you actually compare what they experienced with Min's impressions after Natrin's Barrow. I should know, I was really set on arguing that until I found out that I can't even convince myself.

[herid]

@herid, you completely missed my point. I don't doubt that Demandred did whatever it was the DO asked of him (LoC epilogue confirms as much) or that the DO wants the Pattern destroyed. It's just the part about Perrin's and Faile's experiences actually being Balescreams and that they were caused by Demandred's using massive amounts of BF as per the DO's instructions that's completely hypothetical.

It's not completely hypothetical. It's a theory to be sure but it has plenty of evidence to support it. Both Perrin's and Faile's experiences happened in the same general area near Malden but at different times. The descriptions of what they felt are pretty similar to how the effects of the balescream after Natrin's Barrow destruction was described.

 

Graendal POV at Natrin's Barrow

A wave of wrongness washed over her, a warping in the air, the Pattern itself rippling.

ToM, prologue

Faile POV:

 

She had just reached Therava's arrival with Galina when everything in front of her eyes rippled. She rippled! It was not imagination.

 

Meira's blue eyes widened as far as they could go; she had felt it, too. Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before.

 

In shock, Faile stood up straight and let go of her robe. A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her. She felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist.

-KoD, Ch 5

 

We don't know what Demandred is balefiring but he is balefiring something per DO's instructions. and I do beileve that Demandred is stationed in Murandy (although I still doubt that he is posing as king Roedran himself) as terez argues here. That's geographically quite close to Malden.

 

So yeh, it's a theory but I'm personally convinced it's correct.

[yoniy0]

The thing is, if we only go by the use of the word 'ripple', then the similarities are obvious. But when we look at what it actually feels like, Perrin's and Faile's experiences feel like the entire world fading away, while the effects of Natrin's Barrow are more akin to a shock-wave:

She had just reached Therava's arrival with Galina when everything in front of her eyes rippled. She rippled! It was not imagination. Meira's blue eyes widened as far as they could go; she had felt it, too. Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before. In shock, Faile stood up straight and let go of her robe. A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her. she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist.

Suddenly, everything seemed to ripple in Perrin's sight. He felt himself ripple. Breane gave a cry and dropped the pitcher. The world rippled again, and Berelain clutched his arm. Tylee's hand seemed frozen in that odd gesture, thumb and forefinger forming a crescent. Everything rippled for a third time, and Perrin felt as if he were made of fog, as if the world were fog with a high wind coming.

Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air. It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about. The forest around them—still lit by the glowing access key in Rand's hands—seemed to warp and shake. It was as if the world itself were groaning in agony.

It snapped back, but Min could still feel that tension. In that instant, it seemed as if the very substance of world had been near to breaking.

 

We should also note that Murandy isn't closer to Malden than it is to Andor. We've seen nothing like those ripples anywhere else, which make them appear to be more localized. I seriously doubt they'd be noticeable all the way from Murandy.

[herid]

The descriptions of what they feel are quite similar. They don't need to be identical. That would probably be a bit too much of a giveaway. As for location, I did not mean to suggest that Demandred is doing it in Lugard and the effects are felt all the way in Malden. That would of course be unlikely. But he can be doing it near Murandy-Altara border which is pretty close to Malden. He could even be doing near Malden directly. We don't know what he is balefiring. That is even likely as Perrin doesn't feel the ripple that Faile feels and vice versa. so the effects seem to be pretty localized. That would be understandable as Demandred doesn't have anything as powerful as Choedan Kal to use. If the theory about unraveling the pattern is correct then it could be Shaido septs or just some villages in the middle of nowhere (so as not to bring too much attention tyo his activities). If he is actually trying to consolidate power in Murandy it would certainly make sense to do things like this outside Murandy. The other side of the border with Altara is as good a place as any.

[plague fiend]

If Demandred is using balefire in the world, what is he balefiring? People and places? It would seem to me if he was using balefire in this way within the world, someone would have noticed. I always thought that he was using balefire in TAR, or someplace that would give him access to the threads of pattern directly, maybe the DO prison.

[herid]

If Demandred is using balefire in the world, what is he balefiring? People and places? It would seem to me if he was using balefire in this way within the world, someone would have noticed.

That's a good point, but as I said we don't know what he is balefiring. It may be something that would not bring too much attention. a village in the middle of nowhere is a possibility although it would have to be noticed eventually. It's often mentioned that there are all kinds of crazy rumors flying about. so there might be some vague rumors about things like this too. Omerna mentioned rumors of "of people bursting into flame or nightmares leaping out of thin air and slaughtering whole villages." (LoC, Ch 9).

But it could be something different - we just don't know.

I always thought that he was using balefire in TAR, or someplace that would give him access to the threads of pattern directly, maybe the DO prison.

balefiring random things in TAR would be meaningless. most of them are just reflections of things in the real world and would be recreated eventually.

[plague fiend]

If Demandred is using balefire in the world, what is he balefiring? People and places? It would seem to me if he was using balefire in this way within the world, someone would have noticed.

That's a good point, but as I said we don't know what he is balefiring. It may be something that would not bring too much attention. a village in the middle of nowhere is a possibility although it would have to be noticed eventually. It's often mentioned that there are all kinds of crazy rumors flying about. so there might be some vague rumors about things like this too. Omerna mentioned rumors of "of people bursting into flame or nightmares leaping out of thin air and slaughtering whole villages." (LoC, Ch 9).

But it could be something different - we just don't know.

I always thought that he was using balefire in TAR, or someplace that would give him access to the threads of pattern directly, maybe the DO prison.

balefiring random things in TAR would be meaningless. most of them are just reflections of things in the real world and would be recreated eventually.

 

True, balefiring things in TAR would be pointless, but what if one could balefire the fabric, or parts of it, that constitutes the construct that is TAR and its connection/'s to the real world(or to real people and places)? Of course it is as you say, we don't even know what Dem is doing if anything. I always figured that he was and the strange events were a result of his naughtiness. lol