is Taim Moridin?

[Mr Ares]

as I said, I find the fact that both he and Rand would get sick when channeling saidin pretty strange given that Moridin was channeling TP when the link was formed and both he and Rand got sick at the time. also, Rand gets sick (and affects Moridin via link) when he either seizes or releases saidin.

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect - it's only when he seizes it.

There is one instance in the book (WH prologue) when Rand gets sick without doing anything and the natural assumption is that Moridin channeled saidin. But if this is what happened then Rand should get sick a second time when Moridin released saidin. This is not mentioned. I'm not sure what to make of this. it could simply be an oversight by the writer. or maybe Moridin channeled very briefly. It is also not clear why Moridin (if he is not Taim) would want to channel saidin at all. He never did it even before the link was formed and Ishy used TP exclusively. if Moridin does use saidin occasionally one would expect that he would have tried at least once before that episode in WH but after the link was formed (30 days pass in between). But then Rand should have felt the sickness without channeling long before that scene in WH.

Perhaps it was meant as an experiment. Such has been speculated before - Moridin tries saidin to see what happens.

 

As to why the contradicting orders and the irrelevence, fair enough, I shouldnt have just said it on its own and waited. But I have explained that, you cannot write this off simply because of an incosistency-if you would call it that-because these characters are depicted as real people. People say things, plans change.

 

Yes, plans change. But both of those orders are recently given to Kisman after the failed attempt to kill Rand. So its not a matter of Moridin changing his mind after certain events have occured. He gives these orders to Kisman at the same time.

 

No. They are not at the same time. At least I don’t believe they are anyway.

They all come within a fairly short space of time. Between Cairhien and Far Madding, Taim reiterates the kill order, then Demandred gives the kill order, then Moridin gives the steal his stuff order. What changes in that short space of time to convince Moridin (if he is Taim) to change his mind about what he wants? I don't think Mark Grayson meant "at the same time" as in they were all in the same room together, more in the general sense that there is only s short space of time for these three meetings and the orders.

 

If Taim was seen to give two orders in quick succession... "Kill Rand, wait, I want his possessions," THAT would be confusing to Kisman.

It would make Taim seem a bit indecisive, but the order would be clear enough.

But if the second order came from Moridin, who claims to be Chosen, which Taim has not done as far as we know, then who do you think Kisman is going to obey?

If he values his life, both of them. Remember, the kill order from a more senior Darkfriend is still in place. Kisman has his orders. If there was only one set of orders, figuring out what to do would be simple: kill or steal. Assassination or heist. As it is, he has to do both. If Moridin doesn't care about the death, he is getting his men to waste time on it for no reason. If he only cares about the death, then they have no reason to focus on the theft. By giving two sets of orders, both of which must be followed, you make things harder on your men.

 

P.S. You mentioned searching for this quote earlier in the thread: "The black/dark aura around Rand is partially, but not entirely, an effect of True Power usage." Because I am that damn good.

[OptimusPrime]

They all come within a fairly short space of time. Between Cairhien and Far Madding, Taim reiterates the kill order, then Demandred gives the kill order, then Moridin gives the steal his stuff order. What changes in that short space of time to convince Moridin (if he is Taim) to change his mind about what he wants? I don't think Mark Grayson meant "at the same time" as in they were all in the same room together, more in the general sense that there is only s short space of time for these three meetings and the orders.

 

No they are not given at the same time! Unless later and later still are Kismans way of saying five minutes and another five minutes. No way are they given at the same time. Demandreds order came in between, so what-Moridin and Taim are both talking to Kisman and then Demandred cuts in the conversation? No way man.

 

Believe as you will but they are not given at the same time.

 

It would make Taim seem a bit indecisive, but the order would be clear enough

 

You do realize, Mr Ares, that you have just given me yet another reason to discount the so-called contradiction between Moridin and Taim? Not that I needed another one, but when someone who opposes a theory does something like that, well. It can work wonders. If Taim giving seperate orders makes himself seem uncertain, then Moridin being Taim and giving the different orders is his way of hiding his uncertainty from these 3rd Age idiots.

 

Thanks for that.

 

If he values his life, both of them. Remember, the kill order from a more senior Darkfriend is still in place. Kisman has his orders. If there was only one set of orders, figuring out what to do would be simple: kill or steal. Assassination or heist. As it is, he has to do both. If Moridin doesn't care about the death, he is getting his men to waste time on it for no reason. If he only cares about the death, then they have no reason to focus on the theft. By giving two sets of orders, both of which must be followed, you make things harder on your men.

 

Well, I see it as an attempt to simply get in Rands way. If Rand dies because of it, fine, he cant Cleanse saidin. If he loses the access key, then he cant Cleanse saidin. The results are the same, despite different orders.

 

P.S. You mentioned searching for this quote earlier in the thread: "The black/dark aura around Rand is partially, but not entirely, an effect of True Power usage." Because I am that damn good.

 

Legendary! Nice one.

[OptimusPrime]

Here's a point I have been thinking on that I don't think I have previously brought up:

 

What would Taim have expected to happen when he joined up with Rand? We see when he first goes to the farm with Rand that he doesn't expect any men to have answered the amnesty. And he doesn't expect any of the men who do show up to actually be able to channel. So he has no reason to believe that he's going to be part of an organization like the Black Tower. Certainly no reason to think that he would be put in charge of it. As an imfamous False Dragon, he's much more likely to be mistrusted and watched over closely.

 

So the most likely result of showing up and presenting himself to Rand is that Rand will keep him around and under his watchful eye. Does he want to gain Rand's trust so that he can strike at an opportune time? Does he want to spy of Rand for the Shadow? Is he hoping to use this position near Rand as a way to power (which I think is most likely)? I don't know. But it seems to me that what he was expecting was to gain a position where he would be around Rand all the time. I have to believe in his mind he realizes its much more likely that he will be around Rand constantly.

 

If Taim was Moridin, it would not make sense for him to approach Rand like this when the most likely result is that he will be tethered to Rand all the time. Doesn't leave much time for Nae'blis duties. Of couse, running the Black Tower as Taim wouldn't leave much time for Nae'blis duties either. One of the many strikes against the theory. Yet, the most likely result of Taim answering Rand's amnesty is being around him and under his eye at all times. Its nothing but a stroke of luck that Rand leaves him alone to run the Black Tower and gain more power than he could have hoped for when he originally showed up.

 

Mark, I missed this, sorry.

 

Do you want to know how "Taim" knew how it would play out?

 

Moridin is a Dreamer. This has been discussed elsewhere, but not in the context of Mazidin.

[yoniy0]

Fine, I'll help you too, though you're still wrong. It might be that after Rand let slip that he intends to Cleanse the Source Moridin decided to issue a kill order (or lift the 'don't-kill' order). Some 'rogue' AM (and Osan'gar) then attempt killing Rand in Cairhien. Then, discussing the issue with his underlings, Cyndane finally tells him that Rand possesses both Access Keys. Suddenly it becomes much more important to retrieve those, hence the second order.

 

Unless someone has evidence that Moridin knew about the Access Keys before WH?

[OptimusPrime]

Thats it yoniy0, keep telling yourself you dont believe, but I know deep down you do... hahahaha

[Barid Bel Medar]

Re-reading ToM, the only thing that really gets me thinking about Taim=Moridin is Pevera's PoV. Taim has his hand "bunched into a fist" (direct words).

 

I can explain away all of the others, and even if there is some good evidence pro theory, like the Dreamspike and the red and black, this gets me really thinking.

 

Why on earth would Brandon describe Taim's hand like that. It is such a telling piece of evidence. Surely it cannot be coincidence. I could understand if he clasped his hand behind his back, Bashere and others do it often, but "bunched into a fist" behind his back, so similar to Rand in ToM, when there has been no such description for any character in the series, well, it naggs at me.

 

I cannot believe it is an oversight from Brandon.

 

Strange, such a small thing in regards to actual evidence of Taim=Moridin, but it has such an impact on me.

[OptimusPrime]

Well you could always tell me what Terez did, that its a red herring, but personally I dont like to be treated so stupidly after we have all been paying so much attention to everyones mannerisms for so long.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well you could always tell me what Terez did, that its a red herring, but personally I dont like to be treat so stupidly after we have all been paying so much attention to everyones mannerisms for so long.

 

This isnt actaully aimed at Terez, or anyone for that matter, but using the defence of it could be a red-herring is not good enough for me. Indeed, I know that it very well could be. But while arguing a theory, the "red-herring" arguement is a bit hollow. it is not evidence against it. Everything could be called a red-herring before you get the reveal.

 

And I also agree, if it is a red-herring, it is really quite terrible. I can understand if there is some reason Taim does that, or it was simply a description meant to be harmless, and we just looking into it too much, but for it to be a red-herring is quite annoying.

 

I dont mind a good red-herring now and again. I dont mind being mislead, but this is more than misled. It is so blatant that is like "look here Taim is Moridin" then saying, no actually, i was lying.

 

It is hard to explain, but I agree with you.

 

Mind you, i am not saying that I am 100% T=M, I still think that it could be successfuly explained (the hand thing), but yeah.

[OptimusPrime]

"And you see," Taim said, walking with one handed folded-fingers making a fist-behind his back. With his other hand, he pointed...

 

Maybe Taims hands just DRAW your attention to them. Maybe Pevara has a hand fettish. Or maybe I am a lunatic-we all know the descent into terminal madness can be abrupt. If I am wrong, then one day when I am old and grey I will be sat in the corner of a room somewhere muttering to myself about Taims hand.

 

Anyway, Demandred! Did you read it???

[Guest mike03]

I think that the similar bunching of the fist is Taim's way of trying to be the Dragon Reborn. I think that Taim wanted to get close to Rand in order to eventually kill him because maybe he still believes that he is the Dragon Reborn. He even said as much when he first met Rand. Perhaps Taim is simply trying to pick up Rand's mannerisms since he desires the Dragon Reborn's power.

 

It just seems like the evidence against the theory is too strong while the points for it appear to be a bit reaching. For example, I personally feel that the use of colors similar to Moridin is more likely to be an underling trying to be like his master rather than an amazing subterfuge that would take so much of Moridin's time. In addition, it seems like Logain and Taim were built up since the first book to be the most powerful current age male channelers, and it makes sense for one of them to choose the light and one to choose the dark.

[Barid Bel Medar]

"And you see," Taim said, walking with one handed folded-fingers making a fist-behind his back. With his other hand, he pointed...

 

Maybe Taims hands just DRAW your attention to them. Or maybe Pevara has a hand fettish. Or maybe I am a lunatic-we all know the descent into terminal madness can be abrupt. If I am wrong, then one day when I am old and grey I will be sat in the corner of a room somewhere muttering to myself about Taims hand.

 

Anyway, Demandred! Did you read it???

 

Mmmmm. Well, I was sure it said bunched into a fist. folded fingers etc.. seems a little better. But still.... Oh well., perhaps we have both gone mad. Time will tell.

 

Yes, indeed I did. I read it late last night, I was going to go over it soon and reply. But I like your ideas! More detail to come.

[OptimusPrime]

Taim hasnt seen Rand since he lost his hand.

 

And nice one BBM!

[capuga]

Here's a point I have been thinking on that I don't think I have previously brought up:

 

What would Taim have expected to happen when he joined up with Rand? We see when he first goes to the farm with Rand that he doesn't expect any men to have answered the amnesty. And he doesn't expect any of the men who do show up to actually be able to channel. So he has no reason to believe that he's going to be part of an organization like the Black Tower. Certainly no reason to think that he would be put in charge of it. As an imfamous False Dragon, he's much more likely to be mistrusted and watched over closely.

 

So the most likely result of showing up and presenting himself to Rand is that Rand will keep him around and under his watchful eye. Does he want to gain Rand's trust so that he can strike at an opportune time? Does he want to spy of Rand for the Shadow? Is he hoping to use this position near Rand as a way to power (which I think is most likely)? I don't know. But it seems to me that what he was expecting was to gain a position where he would be around Rand all the time. I have to believe in his mind he realizes its much more likely that he will be around Rand constantly.

 

If Taim was Moridin, it would not make sense for him to approach Rand like this when the most likely result is that he will be tethered to Rand all the time. Doesn't leave much time for Nae'blis duties. Of couse, running the Black Tower as Taim wouldn't leave much time for Nae'blis duties either. One of the many strikes against the theory. Yet, the most likely result of Taim answering Rand's amnesty is being around him and under his eye at all times. Its nothing but a stroke of luck that Rand leaves him alone to run the Black Tower and gain more power than he could have hoped for when he originally showed up.

 

Mark, I missed this, sorry.

 

Do you want to know how "Taim" knew how it would play out?

 

Moridin is a Dreamer. This has been discussed elsewhere, but not in the context of Mazidin.

 

Yet Taim seems surprised when Rand first takes him to the farm that men have actually shown up and even more surprised that any of them can actually channel.

[capuga]

Re-reading ToM, the only thing that really gets me thinking about Taim=Moridin is Pevera's PoV. Taim has his hand "bunched into a fist" (direct words).

 

I can explain away all of the others, and even if there is some good evidence pro theory, like the Dreamspike and the red and black, this gets me really thinking.

 

Why on earth would Brandon describe Taim's hand like that. It is such a telling piece of evidence. Surely it cannot be coincidence. I could understand if he clasped his hand behind his back, Bashere and others do it often, but "bunched into a fist" behind his back, so similar to Rand in ToM, when there has been no such description for any character in the series, well, it naggs at me.

 

I cannot believe it is an oversight from Brandon.

 

Strange, such a small thing in regards to actual evidence of Taim=Moridin, but it has such an impact on me.

 

We've also never seen "bloody ashes" until Brandon took over. He often has a way of describing things that is similar to, but slightly different than RJ. As you point out, other characters have clasped their hands behind their backs before. Brandon just used slightly different words here. Its strange that this, probably the most flimsy pro-theory evidence presented, is what's stuck in your mind.

[OptimusPrime]

Here's a point I have been thinking on that I don't think I have previously brought up:

 

What would Taim have expected to happen when he joined up with Rand? We see when he first goes to the farm with Rand that he doesn't expect any men to have answered the amnesty. And he doesn't expect any of the men who do show up to actually be able to channel. So he has no reason to believe that he's going to be part of an organization like the Black Tower. Certainly no reason to think that he would be put in charge of it. As an imfamous False Dragon, he's much more likely to be mistrusted and watched over closely.

 

So the most likely result of showing up and presenting himself to Rand is that Rand will keep him around and under his watchful eye. Does he want to gain Rand's trust so that he can strike at an opportune time? Does he want to spy of Rand for the Shadow? Is he hoping to use this position near Rand as a way to power (which I think is most likely)? I don't know. But it seems to me that what he was expecting was to gain a position where he would be around Rand all the time. I have to believe in his mind he realizes its much more likely that he will be around Rand constantly.

 

If Taim was Moridin, it would not make sense for him to approach Rand like this when the most likely result is that he will be tethered to Rand all the time. Doesn't leave much time for Nae'blis duties. Of couse, running the Black Tower as Taim wouldn't leave much time for Nae'blis duties either. One of the many strikes against the theory. Yet, the most likely result of Taim answering Rand's amnesty is being around him and under his eye at all times. Its nothing but a stroke of luck that Rand leaves him alone to run the Black Tower and gain more power than he could have hoped for when he originally showed up.

 

Mark, I missed this, sorry.

 

Do you want to know how "Taim" knew how it would play out?

 

Moridin is a Dreamer. This has been discussed elsewhere, but not in the context of Mazidin.

 

Yet Taim seems surprised when Rand first takes him to the farm that men have actually shown up and even more surprised that any of them can actually channel.

 

He knows how it will play out, not the exact details on everything. Perrin and Egwene have Dreams and dont know absolutely everything, in fact they are nowhere near as qualified to interpret Dreams as someone like Moridin is. Dreams are fleeting and metaphoric, and do not tell someone everything.

 

Egwene Dreamed of the Forsaken. She doesnt know the absolute ins and outs because of the Dream does she? Perhaps she is not Egwene?

[Guest mike03]

If Taim didn't pick it up from Rand, he may have simply picked it up if he met with Moridin to receive orders. Sure, Moridin could be Taim, which is why Taim has Rand's mannerisms because of the Moridin-Rand connection. However, Taim could have just copied Moridin's mannerisms just like he uses similar language as the forsaken, such as "let the lord of chaos rule" or calling the aiel "so-called aiel." Basically, Taim seems connected to the forsaken in some way or another, but to actually have the Nae'blis doing the dirty work of training the channelers doesn't seem viable to me. Moridin rarely gets involved and pretty much just tells the other forsaken what to do.

[Hemis AlRhoid]

How many war movies are officers seen addressing their men with a hand or hands clenched behind their back? A lot. It's one of the most standard poses I've seen. If there is any correlation to be drawn, it is to the gauntleted fist and it's tie to the Forsaken symbolism we see throughout the books. Which to me hints at nothing more than Taim having a connection to the Forsaken.

[OptimusPrime]

How many war movies are officers seen addressing their men with a hand or hands clenched behind their back? A lot. It's one of the most standard poses I've seen. If there is any correlation to be drawn, it is to the gauntleted fist and it's tie to the Forsaken symbolism we see throughout the books. Which to me hints at nothing more than Taim having a connection to the Forsaken.

 

...

 

Ok Im not willing to believe that leaders simply stand in this way, its too fishy with the timing... And Im also not willing to believe there is flattery towards Moridin going on. Taim is a predator. Predators dont do flattery.

 

And yet now I can almost see a lightning bolt clenched in that fist...

 

What have you DONE to me Hemis?!?!?!

 

Ok ok wait, its Moridins hand which he lost when Semirhage hurt Rand. S'all good.

 

That wasnt me being sarcastic btw, Ive editted this post about five times lol. I actually did have a moment of uncertainty then. Not nice!

 

But by all means welcome to the discussion Hemis, please continue... hehehehe

[Guest mike03]

I wouldn't necessarily call it flattery toward Moridin, but that's not really the point.

 

Basically, it seems like many of the arguments for Moridin being Taim are small pieces that are trying to be pulled together rather than focusing on the larger issue of how difficult it would be for Moridin to be Taim. To run the Black Tower, train channelers, have many interactions with all the followers, including Logain and visitors such as the Aes Sedai, would seem a bit much while also overseeing the other forsaken and the overarching plans of the Dark One. It just seems like a lot of additional work when he could simply have one of his subordinates run that portion of the Dark One's army. He orders the other forsaken around all the time, so why not Taim.

 

I guess my biggest question is "what exactly does Moridin gain from being Taim in the Black Tower rather than controlling Taim who runs the Black Tower?"

[OptimusPrime]

He gets to run it the way he wants to run it, this way he doesnt need to give Ter'angreal to a non-Chosen, this way he applies his own skill to the 13x13ing rather than handing it over to a Third Ager. This way he can stop Demandred from muscling his way in too much and building his own circle, or from killing Rand at a time when it wasnt on Moridins priority list. This way, Moridin might (or might not) have the ideal situation where the Ta'veren weave would come very handy indeed, especially when Rand leaves the area.

[Guest mike03]

He gets to run it the way he wants to run it, this way he doesnt need to give Ter'angreal to a non-Chosen, this way he applies his own skill to the 13x13ing rather than handing it over to a Third Ager. This way he can stop Demandred from muscling his way in too much and building his own circle, or from killing Rand at a time when it wasnt on Moridins priority list. This way, Moridin might (or might not) have the ideal situation where the Ta'veren weave would come very handy indeed, especially when Rand leaves the area.

 

Many of those reasons really don't seem strong enough for Moridin to use as much of his time as is necessary to run the Black Tower. The "he gets to run it how he wants to" argument could be said about anything then. Why doesn't he just do everything instead of ordering anyone around? It's more likely that as the head Chosen, he would not get immediately involved, but instead use his pawns.

 

In addition, I don't see the worry about using a non-Chosen or Third Ager; they use darkfriends all the time to run plots. Basically, Moridin is intelligent and using your pieces rather than micromanaging is typically a better and more efficient way to go. Who knows, perhaps Moridin is concerned and decided to put Taim under compulsion so that Taim doesn't really have any control. We really don't have any idea, but it just seems more likely that he would have someone else take care of such a time-consuming venture.

 

Sorry, but I don't understand the last two points about Demandred and the Ta'veren weave. How would Moridin being Taim to run the Black Tower protect Rand from Demandred killing him? Rand is never around the Black Tower and rarely went back anyway. In addition, Taim ordered the Ashaman to kill Rand, so he didn't want him protected at that point anyway. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

 

Regarding Ta'veren, I don't understand how the Ta'veren weave would benefit Moridin and what his thought process would have been to undertake such an arduous development as the Black Tower just in the off chance that he benefits in some random way from Rand's influence. It seems like most of those are stretching for reasons as to how Moridin benefits from being Taim.

[Hemis AlRhoid]

 

...

 

Ok Im not willing to believe that leaders simply stand in this way, its too fishy with the timing... And Im also not willing to believe there is flattery towards Moridin going on. Taim is a predator. Predators dont do flattery.

 

And yet now I can almost see a lightning bolt clenched in that fist...

 

What have you DONE to me Hemis?!?!?!

 

Ok ok wait, its Moridins hand which he lost when Semirhage hurt Rand. S'all good.

 

That wasnt me being sarcastic btw, Ive editted this post about five times lol. I actually did have a moment of uncertainty then. Not nice!

 

But by all means welcome to the discussion Hemis, please continue... hehehehe

 

Why not? It's certainly not an uncommon stance. And if I was describing an officer addressing his men in such a manner I certainly wouldn't omit this detail. Look no further than Patton, one of the most iconic war movies, in the intro he's seen holding his riding crop with one hand clenched behind his back while addressing his men. Anyone that has watched their fair share of war movies or documentaries isn't going to find Taim addressing his troops in this fashion at all out of place.

[OptimusPrime]

He gets to run it the way he wants to run it, this way he doesnt need to give Ter'angreal to a non-Chosen, this way he applies his own skill to the 13x13ing rather than handing it over to a Third Ager. This way he can stop Demandred from muscling his way in too much and building his own circle, or from killing Rand at a time when it wasnt on Moridins priority list. This way, Moridin might (or might not) have the ideal situation where the Ta'veren weave would come very handy indeed, especially when Rand leaves the area.

 

Many of those reasons really don't seem strong enough for Moridin to use as much of his time as is necessary to run the Black Tower. The "he gets to run it how he wants to" argument could be said about anything then.

 

Well of course it can mike why else do you think Moridin is Nae'blis, why doesnt he just hand it over to Demandred? Because Demandred isnt fit for the job. Demandred is a general, a tactician, not a manipulator or at least not on a level with Moridin. Sammael was never a good one to send there because he was too egotistical and had his own plans in motion, Aran'gar was appointed to look over Egwene. Nobody else for the job but Moridin, and nobody better for it as well.

 

Why doesn't he just do everything instead of ordering anyone around? It's more likely that as the head Chosen, he would not get immediately involved, but instead use his pawns.

 

Then I hope you ask the same question about Ishamaels dealings with Artur Hawkwing. Why didnt Ishy just groom someone else to do it, I mean its not like he only had five minutes when he was free periodically. The reason is that Moridin deems himself as the most capable of these things, so he would handle it himself. He learns how Rand thinks, or thinks he does, and has spent very little time with the guy even counting the Taim stuff. Ishamael can read people like a book, he is a master manipulator. Why WOULD he get someone else to do it? Its a big task, worth doing properly.

 

In addition, I don't see the worry about using a non-Chosen or Third Ager. ; they use darkfriends all the time to run plots. Basically, Moridin is intelligent and using your pieces rather than micromanaging is typically a better and more efficient way to go. Who knows, perhaps Moridin is concerned and decided to put Taim under compulsion so that Taim doesn't really have any control. We really don't have any idea, but it just seems more likely that he would have someone else take care of such a time-consuming venture.

 

First off, Taim being under Compulsion, well it must be a very mild Compulsion because the guy is clearly able to think properly. Second, about them not using non-Chosen to run things. I think you are losing sight of what the Forsaken are all about. They are NOT about sharing power. Now I can understand why Moridin might take an apprentice, but there are so many ifs and whens on the reasons why he would imitate to such a degree, when I hear the answers people give they start convoluting each individual mannerism as if it is alone, ignoring the rest briefly and forcing me to either ignore or go into length about each particular one. They are all there, they all point somewhere, theres no point isolating a particular mannerism hint or whatever. Oh, the red and black could be flattery, or it could be an assumption made on his part that it is a symbol of rank. Taims hand mannerism could have been a secret signal, or a normal mannerism. People tell me that Taim got all these things from exposure to the Chosen, but that its not flattery, they tell me that its a sign of high rank and yet still none of the other Chosen are supposed to know about this promotion, despite the Taim being practically surrounded by them (Osan'gar and Demandred being the main ones to note) and then IF Taim IS a known new Chosen, supposedly the others arent bothered enough to acknowledge the threat he clearly causes with his success rate, which people tell me the others still dont know about.

 

Just who is depending on more coincedences here, me or the anti-Mazridin crew?

 

Here, I will give you a better Taim explanation than anyone else has said so far. Even better than him being Moridins secret apprentice that might as well be a Gray man.

 

Ready?

 

If Taim is Taim, he could have been told by Shaidar Haran or Moridin, or even the Dark One, to leave hints everywhere that he IS Moridin, so that when Rand finally shows up he will THINK Moridin is in there and kill Taim, Moridins faked death buying them time and a new element of surprise.

 

That would explain everything better than Taim being the Nae'pprentice. If Taim wasnt Moridin, that is.

 

Anyway folks, you know the drill, nobody is going to budge either way so Im going to hand the reins over to herid or whoever else wants it. Ive said all I can say

[Guest mike03]

I still don't think that you have clearly shown what makes being in the Black Tower as Taim more important than just telling Taim to do it. He can still run it as he wants to through Taim.

 

In fact, your statement about Artur Hawkwing actually gives a good example of how he probably is handling Taim and the Black Tower; as a manipulator. As far as I know, Ishamael didn't kill Hawkwing and assume his role so that he could rule. Same with Taim, I doubt that he would want to assume that role, but rather, use him to control the Black Tower.

 

Finally, you mentioned how other people have convoluted theories and are looking for coincidences, but I don't see how you can think it's convoluted for Taim to have turned to the Dark One and now be following orders. It certainly seems more convoluted for Moridin to pretend to be another character where he would have to hold that disguise for extended periods of time while training an army of channelers, building their city, while also trying to monitor everything else going on for the Dark One. Like you said, he is a manipulator.

 

Feel free to not post anymore on this topic, but I don't really understand why you would avoid debate or conversation because they think that nobody will budge. First of all, that's simply not true. If you provide evidence, give a convincing argument, and are open-minded, people will change their minds; not everybody but certainly some. Second, a conversation isn't just about winning an argument. It's about explaining your ideas clearly to help others understand your point of view whether or not they disagree with them.

[OptimusPrime]

Nah its not because people arent convinced mike, its because people expect me to have an open mind about it while not opening their own. Some are worse for it than others, but I get tired of doing this every time someone says something.

 

I still don't think that you have clearly shown what makes being in the Black Tower as Taim more important than just telling Taim to do it. He can still run it as he wants to through Taim.

 

The important part is that Taim is dead mate! Assuming Moridin is Taim for a second, if you can, it doesnt matter how posing as Taim is more important than just telling Taim to do it, BECAUSE TAIM IS DEAD AND CANT BE TOLD JACK.

 

Moridin: Hey Taim, come back from the dead for me pal, it would make more sense for you to go into the Black Tower instead of me, although I have no idea how you would because I have your body.

 

Sorry mike. Maybe you can see why I am trying to drop out. Even I get fed up of saying the same thing over and over and over.