is Taim Moridin?

[OptimusPrime]

One thing I would like Taim=Moridin supporters to convincingly explain is why Moridin would allow himself to be harried across half a continent in traveling to Andor? This also more clearly than any other reason explains Bashere being uncertain as to his appearance initially. RJ's quotes throw a pretty big stick in the spoke on this one.

 

This is the only one I have trouble with. The ONLY one. So far, that is.

 

First possible reason. Nae'blis in disguise Travels near Dragon Ta'veren. What are the chances of something going wrong? Keep what happened with Dashiva in mind here. What would be the chances that Rand was stood RIGHT THERE when Moridins gateway opened? These things are unlikely, and because of that, they are almost a certainty. If Moridin Traveled there, the gateway could also be tracked by its residue if Rand found it, and obviously if he found said residue he would connect it to Taims arrival.

 

Second possible reason. Moridin thinks Rand might have warded the city. The thing wrong with this is its highly possible that True Power Travelling might not set off One Power alarms. But by that point it could easily be common knowledge to the Forsaken that Rand uses mass wards on his armies, so exactly how safe would it be to Travel there?

 

Third possible reason. Ishamael had some scheme in mind that specifically involved going in on foot. What are the chances of Basheres arrival being part of such a plan? Knowing Ishamael for the insane mastermind that he is, who is constantly referred to as a madman... what are the chances of Moridin deliberatly getting Bashere on his tail just to step over an easy hurdle in front of Rand? Looking at the bigger picture, if Ishamael was to pose as Taim he obviously will know there will come the time and all that, so if he were to deliberatly take a hurdle with him and use Bashere as a tool for the very purpose of reinforcing the disguise...

 

Remember what Rand said. Only a madman would claim that name if it wasnt his.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I take Egwenes Dream about the Midnight Towers as proof that Taim is not a new Chosen.This is the kind of series where almost every opportunity to foreshadow is used. Egwenes Dream would be the perfect time to show a new Chosens existence,because that Dream showed the Chosens rises and falls. No fourteenth tower for me is as good as saying there are no new candidates, and seeing as Demandred is outruled beyond question... Taim has the black aura. That is as good as phorensic evidence that Taim is something even greater than the average Chosen.

 

Too much hints at Moridin. Its like ... never mind I will leave it there

 

Egwene's dream does nothing of the sort.

 

Egwene's dream is about the FORSAKEN. The 13 men and women who were sealed away with the DO.

 

The chosen mark being granted to Taim has nothing to do with this. There would not be another tower, because he is not one of the Forsaken.

 

Well, technically you could be right in your supposition, it is as vaild as mine, I guess. But i wouldnt lean on that too much to disprove Taim-= Chosen

[OptimusPrime]

Do you think the buildup is enough for him to simply be a new Chosen though? Raising a new Chosen would alienate the few remaining servants that are worth their salt. Taim simply being a new Chosen wouldnt impact the story enough to justify such a long buildup in my oppinion. What exactly would it mean? Fourtenth guy has a title that means nothing... could only serve as a plot device for the others to think of why they should stay Dark, only for some new guy to take a shot at being the Dark Ones favorite meaningless tool.

 

Would the Dark One alienate his favorites like that? Would, say, Demandred deserve-or stand for-such treatment?

[Red2111]

Drekka, if you think of how the DO thinks of his fav pets; he likes to toss a bone in the middle and watch which dogs fights the hardest and wins said bone (ie: title of Nea'Bless) yes the DO would alienate his favs like that; just like he woudl reincarnate a male Forsakena nd but him in a female body & bring back Lanfear and make her less beautiful.

 

 

if it promotes competition and strengthens his number at the same time, why not.

[OptimusPrime]

But theres no evidence from the others! Taim is never at the significant Chosen meetings, and we have been given ample PoVs spanning the entire crew and not a single thought among ANY of them even references Taim EVER. If Taim was that bone among those dogs, they must have ignored it completely. Even Moridin doesnt make excuses for Taim never showing up at the meetings and if HE isnt bothered about it... I cant seem to say it right. Taims deeds for the Dark SHOULD spark a whole new level of DESPERATE in the Forsaken competition. And yet it is as if he doesnt even exist to them.

 

If Taim is a new Chosen then I would be very surprised if anyone save Moridin knew, going off the lack of mention in their PoVs. So I highly doubt Taim is that bone. We dont even get a "Hi guys, sorry I didnt come last time but Im busy 13x13ing the new army" or ANYTHING. Why would a new Chosen be a big deal? What conflict does it bring?

[Red2111]

i get what your saying Drekka. as far as plot purposes it's more of a WTF moment than anythign if he does turn out to be a new Forsaken. but this could describe why the Forsaken only seem semi interested in events unfolding in the BT than they do in events in other places.

 

as for why none of the Forsaken talk about Taim, or why he doesn't show up at meetings; since the celansing of the source the only meeting we have between Forsaken was Grendal's meeting and we see how well that one ended up for poor Arnie correct. maybe Taim's only recently been made a Forsaken, when the DO's choices for using recycled souls of his Chosen has run dry.

 

as far as i know, Taim hasn't really been sighted in the BT, except every once in a while. everyone goes to him in that Tower and he sends his lackies for the most part to do everything for him. thsi is comming from my memory again and from convos from other Ashmen and Logain as well (so all 2nd hand).

 

and plus, your going on the insitance that the DO tells his minions everything, which isn't true save for super fade SH. whose to say SH didn't come to Taim and tell him "Dude report to SG to become a new Forsaken shut keep your trap shut until informed otherwise unless you want what she got *points to Grendal*"

 

 

as for having alot to do in the BT *snorts* if he's been turning people 13x13 since he started running the place, he could trust them to run it for him. a true leader (or ruler in Taims case) knows how to deligate responsability so that all they have to do is oversee and sign important papers and check in on peole occasnionally. same with Mordin and marshling the DO's forces.

[OptimusPrime]

*gets disecty type tools out* Im sorry Red! I hate to do this to a fellow writer!

 

i get what your saying Drekka. as far as plot purposes it's more of a WTF moment than anythign if he does turn out to be a new Forsaken. but this could describe why the Forsaken only seem semi interested in events unfolding in the BT than they do in events in other places.

 

The thing is, I would imagine that Taims exploits would put him high on the Darkfriend radar once hes started making some real progress. There are that many Darkfriend Ashaman, I find it hard to believe the others wouldnt know and discuss it. The thing about that is, you already addressed that when you said we havent seen many of their meetings since the Cleansing, so small meh on this one. For now

 

and plus, your going on the insitance that the DO tells his minions everything, which isn't true save for super fade SH. whose to say SH didn't come to Taim and tell him "Dude report to SG to become a new Forsaken shut keep your trap shut until informed otherwise unless you want what she got *points to Grendal*"

 

No no no I am well aware of the Dark One withholding information. The very reason the entire Forsaken are still bad guys is based on false information (read: Nae'blis)

 

BUT BUT BUT! We just went over the Dark One raising a new Chosen to keep the rest on their toes! So now why would he raise one and then keep it quiet? Hes just spent 3000 years waiting to insert them back into the world, what possible reason could he have for adding to their ranks and keeping it quiet? The only thing I can think of is to groom a new male True Power user, and that is BIG news. BIIIIG. Now its not without its hints, fair enough. But then do we really think Shaidar wouldnt have given Taim Graendals fate for... the red on black, the Stormleader references, yada yada? Come on, if Taim is under that kind of pressure from Shaidar then surely his bottom must already be sore. Demandred knows about him, Moridin knows, Osan'gar will have, Aran'gar knew they were in the BT too, and back in the day Agi and Bal were like that *twisty finger thingy* Too many channels for word about Taim to get out, I just cant see him being a secret Chosen.

 

as for having alot to do in the BT *snorts* if he's been turning people 13x13 since he started running the place, he could trust them to run it for him. a true leader (or ruler in Taims case) knows how to deligate responsability so that all they have to do is oversee and sign important papers and check in on peole occasnionally. same with Mordin and marshling the DO's forces.

 

But thats just the thing, if Taim has all his lackeys doing everything then exactly what is this new secret Chosen doing in his spare time? He doesnt need to go on recruiting parties, so... what? If he isnt attending Forsaken meetings then hes got a lot of time on his hands, right? Well, let me say this. That thing about Taim and spare time, that thing you just said... the opposite is normally said against me in this. People throw "Ohhh no Taim isnt Moridin because he spends too much time at the Black Tower" at me. and expect me to take it seriously. As you just said yourself Red, much of Taims time is unnaccounted for. Where is he?

 

He is in the Blight performing Nae'blis duties as Moridin!!!! (Ohhh no Moridin isnt Taim because he spends too much time in the Blight... Ahem. Proof please. Also Moridin has Ashaman in his Blight fortress and has one summon Graendal to him.)

 

Yes, I am obsessed. We all are in our own little way!

[Mongoose]

i think he's more than a Dreadlord. i think he's a newly made Forsaken. i mean, with all the DO's Forsaken being Balefired or recycled into less powerful bodies, it woudl seem a smart move on the DO's part to make another Forsaken given the chance for someone both strong enough and in a position of power (which Tiam is) i refuse to believe he's just another dread lord though; and i don't think taim woudl settle for being just a Dread Lord either.

 

i mean, by all accounts, the dude is almost as strong as Rand in LoC (maybe strong as Rand wasn't able to judge but suspected Taim was holding back) even at that power, taim is stronger in the OP than half the Forsaken. thats got to count for something.

 

It's hard to say how strong he is with only Rand to compare him to.

 

Aginor, Ishamael and Demandred have all been described as being just a hair weaker than Lews Therin.

 

The Dark One hasn't to my knwledge raised any new Forsaken. The Forsaken themselves seem pretty contemptuous of channellers of this era. Also as the DO values selfishness, the 'idea' of the Forsaken seems to have been that they would compete untill one emerged as Nae'blis, the competition making the winner all the stronger. I think as long as one becomes Nae'blis to command his forces, the DO doesn't care what happens to the rest. He seemed to be mad at Graendal, but he seems much more intolerant of failing than infighting.

 

At any rate the only thing making the Forsaken special is their knowledge and strength. If Moridin and Demandred are the only Forsaken left standing, being the top Dreadlord isn't such a bad deal A Colonel might be mad he doesn't get promoted to General, but Generals don't usually get to fight on the front lines.

 

BTW, could someone explain this 13x13 thing to me? I keep seeing it but don't understand what it means.

[Barid Bel Medar]

haha, Drekka, good points.

 

Believe it or not, I really am not against the theory that much. I would not be suprised at all if Taim=Moridin. There is certainly alot of evidence. AFAIK, I was one of the first (if not the first on Dragonmount) to point out the evidence from ToM. (the hand thing with Taim, Dreamspike etc..)

 

I was only pointing out the fact that it was uncertain about Egwene's dreams.

 

I dont actually believe (well, i am unsure) that Taim is one of the Chosen. You are correct in saying, we should have seen something from the Forsaken regarding Taim if he were elevated to Chosen status. (although, technically, I suppose it is possible)

 

I believe the most likely is that Taim has been granted the Chosen's mark (to control shadowspawn) or something similar. Elevating him to more than a simple Dreadlord, but less than Chosen. So Moridin is still in control of him, but he has been given the tools to do his job. (A heap of Myrddraal for his 13x13 parties)

 

In any case, I am merely pointing out the alternate. As I said, I am actually pretty partial to Taim=Moridin. However, I refuse to believe it is the case purely for plot and personal reasons. (although, I take into account all the evidence against Moridin=Taim)

 

Simply, I would hate for Moridin to turn out as Taim. Moridin already is doing enough. He is marshalling the Blight, Nae'blis, linked with Rand, mindtrapped 2 women, unrestricted use of the TP, facing off with Rand at the end of days, has a fortress and a bunch of neat angreal/ter'angreal.

 

Adding being the leader of the black Tower, turning a bunch of channelers 13x13, its just too much IMO. Not too much to handle as such (with travelling and the like) and if anyone could do it, it would be Ishamael, I mean too much for the character in terms of plot.

 

The Black Tower arc is one of my favorite, I am hoping for a showdown with Taim and Logain's forces. I sure as hell would be disappointed if they all start to fight and either

1. Moridin (as Taim) wings it back to the Blight to face Rand and such, leaving all the Dreadlords and 13x13 to their fate (after all his hard work aswell)

2. The Light forces turn up to the fight and find half of the Dreadlords gone with Moridin, take back tower and sit wondering at how easy it was. (alright, the last was just for dramatic effect )

 

I suppose there is a way of doing it good, but I would like to think that Taim will be there for a showdown.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

Aginor, Ishamael and Demandred have all been described as being just a hair weaker than Lews Therin.

 

 

BTW, could someone explain this 13x13 thing to me? I keep seeing it but don't understand what it means.

 

1. Just a technical point. Ishamael is at least as strong as LTT. Aginor has been described as the second strongest (possibly stronger than LTT still) and Demandred is the only one who is just a hair weaker. Although, Aginor is likely the same as you said, I just have to point out the technicality :)

 

2. 13x13 we first actually "see"(sort of) in Egwene's Accepted Test. When Rand is down in Caemlyn. (a bit of forshadowing? Battle at Caemlyn) he says that she has to kill him, beacuse they are trying to turn him.

 

When you get 13 dreadlords (it may be only female, you may have to link to do it, I am not sure) and 13 Myrddraal together you can forcibly turn a channeler to the Shadow. It does not take their souls or anything, they are the same people (i use it loosely) its just that the corruption and all evil thoughts are magnified.

[DPT24]

Taim deserves to be one of the Chosen as he and Demedred are the only two main bad guy's who haven't been killed/captured/humiliated by the forces of the Light. His rank in the Dark One's eyes is unknown, but I'd expect him to be pretty high up. It would make sense to have given him a Chosen mark, but it's possible that's not happened, and from what we've seen, if it has happened, most of the other Forsaken are unaware of it.

[Mongoose]

Ah yeah, I knew about the Channellers and Myrdraal thing but it didn't click for me that it was what was being referred to.

 

Also I was certain LTT was the strongest, but browsing the wiki, while it says he is the strongest and 'as strong as a man can be' in the Power, it does say Elin is just as strong (but possibly not as skilled, as it almost mentions how LTT humbled him in the Hall of Servants)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ah yeah, I knew about the Channellers and Myrdraal thing but it didn't click for me that it was what was being referred to.

 

Also I was certain LTT was the strongest, but browsing the wiki, while it says he is the strongest and 'as strong as a man can be' in the Power, it does say Elin is just as strong (but possibly not as skilled, as it almost mentions how LTT humbled him in the Hall of Servants)

 

Yes, you are correct. I just assumed you were talking about pure strength in the power.

 

Talking about skill, well, thats an entirely different thing. As you say, LTT beat Elan at the Hall of Servants, and Rand killed/defeated him 3 times. However, we have no way to really know who was a better weaver of the OP. Its hard to tell, you dont need to be good to win. You can use brute strength and anyone who is strong enough can just whip out a bit of Balefire, which will destroy the strongest, no matter how good they are.

 

So its up in the air. Although, the "humbling" does sound like LTT outclassed Elan fully. So who knows, maybe LTT is better.

 

As an aside, I would say that LTT wasnt the most skilled weaver of the OP in the AoL, although he was certainly one of the best.

[OptimusPrime]

haha, Drekka, good points.

 

Believe it or not, I really am not against the theory that much. I would not be suprised at all if Taim=Moridin. There is certainly alot of evidence. AFAIK, I was one of the first (if not the first on Dragonmount) to point out the evidence from ToM. (the hand thing with Taim, Dreamspike etc..)

 

Ah yes, in the Black Tower thread. I remember you mentioning that thread before I had read ToM. See, at least you arent closing yourself off to the possibility! Ive said it before, I went looking for Taim in ToM before reading the book itself specifically with Mazridinisms in mind, and there was the hand thing... I didnt even need confirmation in my head but there it was anyway.

 

I was only pointing out the fact that it was uncertain about Egwene's dreams.

 

I dont actually believe (well, i am unsure) that Taim is one of the Chosen. You are correct in saying, we should have seen something from the Forsaken regarding Taim if he were elevated to Chosen status. (although, technically, I suppose it is possible)

 

I believe the most likely is that Taim has been granted the Chosen's mark

 

But then surely that means he is Chosen! And then we go round the whole thing about who knows and all that. No evidence in their PoVs means they dont know... And theres been a whole lot of talk about Moghedien and Cyndane wearing red and black as a symbol of Moridin... Taim doing the same with the Black Tower marks him as Moridins, if hes supposed to be keeping it quiet, well, he isnt. If Taim isnt Moridin, then surely he is on a level with the mindtrapped two as is depicted by the reds and blacks, and then we have to rely on both Demandred AND Osan'gar for having not done any scheming against an obvious new contender... which, again, was never referenced. No scheming=unheard of for Forsaken, you know what Im getting at.

 

Anyway, time had better tell otherwise this will never end! Lol. Of course, Rand was right. There are no endings...

[Barid Bel Medar]

haha, Drekka, good points.

 

Believe it or not, I really am not against the theory that much. I would not be suprised at all if Taim=Moridin. There is certainly alot of evidence. AFAIK, I was one of the first (if not the first on Dragonmount) to point out the evidence from ToM. (the hand thing with Taim, Dreamspike etc..)

 

Ah yes, in the Black Tower thread. I remember you mentioning that thread before I had read ToM. See, at least you arent closing yourself off to the possibility! Ive said it before, I went looking for Taim in ToM before reading the book itself specifically with Mazridinisms in mind, and there was the hand thing... I didnt even need confirmation in my head but there it was anyway.

 

I was only pointing out the fact that it was uncertain about Egwene's dreams.

 

I dont actually believe (well, i am unsure) that Taim is one of the Chosen. You are correct in saying, we should have seen something from the Forsaken regarding Taim if he were elevated to Chosen status. (although, technically, I suppose it is possible)

 

I believe the most likely is that Taim has been granted the Chosen's mark

 

But then surely that means he is Chosen! And then we go round the whole thing about who knows and all that. No evidence in their PoVs means they dont know... And theres been a whole lot of talk about Moghedien and Cyndane wearing red and black as a symbol of Moridin... Taim doing the same with the Black Tower marks him as Moridins, if hes supposed to be keeping it quiet, well, he isnt. If Taim isnt Moridin, then surely he is on a level with the mindtrapped two as is depicted by the reds and blacks, and then we have to rely on both Demandred AND Osan'gar for having not done any scheming against an obvious new contender... which, again, was never referenced. No scheming=unheard of for Forsaken, you know what Im getting at.

 

Anyway, time had better tell otherwise this will never end! Lol. Of course, Rand was right. There are no endings...

 

haha, yeah. I admit it can go either way. I respect the evidence you have found and it is a very good theory.

 

Also, I really hope Moridin=Taim for your sake. You KNOW we are going to give you crap if he isnt. After all the near obsessiveness. All in good nature of course.

[OptimusPrime]

Hahaha if he isnt I will open that thread myself!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Hahaha if he isnt I will open that thread myself!

 

haha, good show.

 

I wish I had a theory of my own like your Mazridin. Id expect it makes the whole thing more fun.

 

The closest I have got to a theory is that Demandred will kill Rand. Its not really a theory, as there isnt really a full writeup, but I suppose i could adapt one.

 

I am damn scared of what will happen in AMOL with Demandred. here I am, his biggest fan, saying he will be awesome, and I just get the feeling that he will be a total flop like Graendal was (along with most of the other Forsaken.)

 

Edit: Oh, I suppose I have my red-veil = male channelers of the Aiel theory (the ones that go to the blight) most people seem to have dismissed that on something so simple as eye colour. I mean, the DO creates trollocs and can steal peoples souls, transmigrate them into new bodies, he can also grant immortality, surely eye colour would be no trouble for him.

[OptimusPrime]

Im not sure what to make of the Red Aiel dudes myself, but I know what you mean. Eye color in itself means little. Yeah sure people who have been 13x13ed might have weird eyes, but 13x13 isnt the only way to make someone evil. Look at Rand in TGS for example. A single dose of the True Power turned him into Moridin! And the only odd thing about Rands eyes is a single caverns of ice reference that drives me insane... but still. I wouldnt discount a theory about Red Aiel channelers just because of their eyes.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Im not sure what to make of the Red Aiel dudes myself, but I know what you mean. Eye color in itself means little. Yeah sure people who have been 13x13ed might have weird eyes, but 13x13 isnt the only way to make someone evil. Look at Rand in TGS for example. A single dose of the True Power turned him into Moridin! And the only odd thing about Rands eyes is a single caverns of ice reference that drives me insane... but still. I wouldnt discount a theory about Red Aiel channelers just because of their eyes.

 

Exactly, the Blight does some strange things to people. (cue Slayer) The corruption of ones eyes over time is easy. Also, why on earth would RJ (or Brandon) make them look sooo much like Aiel and them not even be remotely related to them. (yes, yes, red herrings and such, but there is no reason for it.)

 

Good point about Rand, he gets the whole Black Aura and such after just one dose. Also, we have specific mention of eyes (or eye related) mutation ie- Moridin and IShamael. Think what Aginor could do to eyes!

 

Now I am not saying that the eyes cant be evidence against the theory, of course, it does hurt it, I am merely amused that people would disregard it altogether because of something that could easily be remedied in 1000 plausible ways, with everything we have seen of the DO and the TP.

 

In any case, thats enough about that, I hate to de-rail the thread, but perhaps it IS to me, what Moridin=Taim is to you

 

I feel obliged to post something at least remotely relating to Taim = Moridin, so here it is.

 

One thing thats curious.

 

Herid, at least, is adamant that Taim's partiality to red and black means he MUST be moridin or moridin's pawn, excluding all other association or serving any other Forsaken.

 

By that Logic, Taim using Sammael's and Be'lal's sigil SHOULD mean that he is (well, was) their pawns (they are dead).

 

The point I am making here is not to argue against the theory itself, just the point that Taim HAS to be in moridin's service, no others.

 

It IS undeniable that Taim has some association with Moridin, the colours DO prove that at least. But they do NOT prove that he is Moridin's and no others.

 

For just like he uses MOridin's colours, he uses other Forsaken's sigils.

 

I am merely saying that Taim could serve all of the Forsaken. He certainly has been involved with Demandred. (Demandred knows too much about the BT for it to be a coincidence)

 

Alright, ive just had an idea.

 

This is actually in favour of the Taim=Moridin theory. (I am just trying to sort out all the evidence, not prove or disprove)

 

Why would Demandred want to hide the order (you know the one, killing Rand in WH) from Taim?

Surely he doesnt fear Taim if he was a simple dreadlord. From the other Forsaken, they think the 3rd agers are children, and hold them in contempt. Taim would have to obey Demandred, being a DF and all.

 

This leaves a few posibilites.

1. Demandred doesnt know Taim = Darkfriend, or thinks him a Lightfriend. THis is highly unlikely. Taim is clearly a DF, and I doubt that Demandred (having dealings with the BT) would not know about Taim, being in such an important position.

 

2. Taim is something more than just a dreadlord. He has some influence that Demandred doesnt want him knowing about his plans. This is a great point to say Taim=Moridin. Id say that Moridin or another of the Forsaken would be the only ones Demandred would want to hide his actions from.

 

3. Now, this can tie in with number two, or stand alone by itself. I think this is at least in part why Demandred didnt want Taim to know. He is working incognito for the DO. He is called to SG in LoC and given instructions. We know that at least part of that was the "Let the Lord of chaos Rule". I suspect, however, he was given orders to keep to himself. There is a distinct air of secrecy about Demandred's doings. Graendal knows everything but Demandred's doing. Id think it highly difficult for Graendal not to recieve ANY word from her spies or other information sources. So, I say that Demandred had orders to be revealed to no-one. He was or is doing SOMETHING that he doesnt want ANYONE to know about.

 

Anyway, its a bit rambling, but I felt i had to get hte topic back on track

[chuckievi]

Also keep in mind that blue eyes such as their Aiel have are recessive genes, so if there was another population they were interbreeding with at a "shadow colony" it wouldn't be hard to have dark eyed Aiel.

 

Also just because I like to poke fun at you Drekka, I am wearing black and red right now...am I Moridin too?

[herid]

 

 

I feel obliged to post something at least remotely relating to Taim = Moridin, so here it is.

 

One thing thats curious.

 

Herid, at least, is adamant that Taim's partiality to red and black means he MUST be moridin or moridin's pawn, excluding all other association or serving any other Forsaken.

You may disagree with this of course but I consider it as close to a definite proof as we can get without an explicit quote to this effect. The only others we see that use red and black are Moridin and his direct subordinates. We don't see subordinates of subordinates doing that. Moridin mentions this specifically

 

The stout innkeeper at The Oarsman’s Pride nearly leaped, too, at the sight of Moghedien striding into her common room in gloriously scarlet silk worked with thread-of-gold and black silk that glistened as richly as the gold. Her mask was a great spray of pitch black feathers with a sharp black beak; a raven. That was Moridin’s joke, his command, as was the dress, in fact. His colors were black and red, he said, and she would wear them while she served him.

-CoS, Ch 30

 

I'm not saying that this means that Taim would not speak to other Forsaken like Demandred or take their orders (if he is not Moridin, of course) but I am saying is that his direct boss is Moridin.

 

 

By that Logic, Taim using Sammael's and Be'lal's sigil SHOULD mean that he is (well, was) their pawns (they are dead).

No, this is a different matter. Taim's sigil is not exactly the same as those of Bel'al and Sammael.

 

 

Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors. Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded.

 

- Knife of Dreams, Epilogue

 

Nynaeve saw the sigil painted [on the carriage door]. A silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts. She supposed it was High Lord Samon's [be’lal’s] sign...

 

- The Dragon Reborn, Bait For the Net

 

His [sammael's] chair was heavy wood, carved with...a steel-gauntleted fist clasping lightning at the back's peak.

 

- Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow

 

The fact that Taim's sigil is gold while the other ones are silver and steel may indicate that he has higher rank than Bel'al and Sammael. While not definitive, this is a natural assumption. We have other indications that gold means higher rank in military hierarchy in Randland. Rand himself does this. Full Asha'man get red-gold dragon pins while Dedicated get silver sword pins.

 

More importantly, Taim's sigil has three lightning bolts while Sammael's has one and Bel'al's has two. That would point to a higher rank too.

 

During the war of the Power Bel'al, Sammael, and Demandred (who is hidden so we've never seen his sigil) were Shadows top generals and Ishy was the overall top general.

 

 

I address this and other points related to Taim=Moridin in the link in my sig.

[Bluedust9]

I was reading POD yesterday, I've always just kind of skimmed POD and COT. Anyway, some guy made mention of dark-eyed Aiel, I smiled.

 

As for this topic, I don't think he's Moridin but there's definitely a lot of evidence and I won't be surprised if he is.

[OptimusPrime]

Also just because I like to poke fun at you Drekka, I am wearing black and red right now...am I Moridin too?

 

:laugh: Hey I still havent told you about my Mazblar theory because of the blue and gold references!

 

Anyway, as to the red and black. Honestly? I didnt even notice that the first time round and when I... "realized" ... about Taim I still hadnt noticed it. I knew they were Moridins colors, I knew about the Fisher King and I knew Moghedien and Cyndane wearing the colors marked them as Moridins. But when I thought of Mazridin the red and black reference was not on MY list.

 

To answer the question properly though, no, red and black means nothing with regard to Taim. By itself it means as little as, say, a so-called Aiel comment, or a let the lord of chaos rule mention, or a hand reference. Yada yada. But these things are ALL present and they point somewhere and it was never ever Demandred! Of course this is all repeated, you've heard it all before.

 

You can tell it was never meant to be Demandred because of Rand. In part of his analysis of Taim, specifically when thinking of the idea of it being an imposter, like I said earlier Rand thinks to himself "only a madman would claim that name if it wasnt his." I noticed that about two months ago, I know its a small thing, but I think it was very deliberate, and is a good indicator that RJ didnt mean Demandred and change his mind. (Not that I ever needed that but its just worth mentioning in that context I think)

 

You know the thing that really irks me about this? Taim shows Rand compassion at least a couple of times. It reminds me of Eye of the World prologue when Elan Morin was talking to Lewis! Despite clearly being the enemy Elan still had a feel of at least some respect and I dare say even a small shred of pity for Lews Therin for having fallen so far. And yet I dont have Eye of the World, I dont know what happened to it, and I am damn sure it would be a nice place to look for a subtle reference that might later show up in Taim.

[chuckievi]

Hey don't forget Be'lal was BF'd by Moirane, who probably isn't powerful enough to zap him back but a few seconds. I haven't checked the timelines recently, but HE could be Taim.

[OptimusPrime]

Hey don't forget Be'lal was BF'd by Moirane, who probably isn't powerful enough to zap him back but a few seconds. I haven't checked the timelines recently, but HE could be Taim.

 

Indeed he could. That would be a nice twist actually.