creating living things in TAR

[herid]

Egwene created a TAR version of Bela when she traveled to Salidar by imagining it and that Bela was fully functional. Yet, Perrin was unable to do so with Hopper after Hopper was killed for good by Isam. Why not? What exactly is the difference and what exactly did Egwene create? I realize of course that at the time the real Bela was alive. Did Egwene just pull her into TAR (assuming that Bela was asleep at the time)? if not, what happened?

[Mandro]

Egwene created a TAR version of Bela when she traveled to Salidar by imagining it and that Bela was fully functional. Yet, Perrin was unable to do so with Hopper after Hopper was killed for good by Isam. Why not? What exactly is the difference and what exactly did Egwene create? I realize of course that at the time the real Bela was alive. Did Egwene just pull her into TAR (assuming that Bela was asleep at the time)? if not, what happened?

 

Maybe it's that Bela was alive, and that animals are more willing to split their will.

[herid]

Egwene created a TAR version of Bela when she traveled to Salidar by imagining it and that Bela was fully functional. Yet, Perrin was unable to do so with Hopper after Hopper was killed for good by Isam. Why not? What exactly is the difference and what exactly did Egwene create? I realize of course that at the time the real Bela was alive. Did Egwene just pull her into TAR (assuming that Bela was asleep at the time)? if not, what happened?

 

Maybe it's that Bela was alive, and that animals are more willing to split their will.

split their will?? I don't understand what you mean. could you elaborate?

[Mandro]

Egwene created a TAR version of Bela when she traveled to Salidar by imagining it and that Bela was fully functional. Yet, Perrin was unable to do so with Hopper after Hopper was killed for good by Isam. Why not? What exactly is the difference and what exactly did Egwene create? I realize of course that at the time the real Bela was alive. Did Egwene just pull her into TAR (assuming that Bela was asleep at the time)? if not, what happened?

 

Maybe it's that Bela was alive, and that animals are more willing to split their will.

split their will?? I don't understand what you mean. could you elaborate?

 

Hopper isn't the best example, but wasn't there a thing about hopper saying that wolves don't make a difference between the waking world and the dream world, insinuating that the wolves live in a conscious duality allowing them to be active in the waking world and in the dream world?

[herid]

Egwene created a TAR version of Bela when she traveled to Salidar by imagining it and that Bela was fully functional. Yet, Perrin was unable to do so with Hopper after Hopper was killed for good by Isam. Why not? What exactly is the difference and what exactly did Egwene create? I realize of course that at the time the real Bela was alive. Did Egwene just pull her into TAR (assuming that Bela was asleep at the time)? if not, what happened?

 

Maybe it's that Bela was alive, and that animals are more willing to split their will.

split their will?? I don't understand what you mean. could you elaborate?

 

Hopper isn't the best example, but wasn't there a thing about hopper saying that wolves don't make a difference between the waking world and the dream world, insinuating that the wolves live in a conscious duality allowing them to be active in the waking world and in the dream world?

I don't remember if Hopper said something like this but I don't quite see why it matters to my question. Basically, I'm trying to understand what if any living things can be created in TAR by imagining them. It worked for Bela but not for Hopper.

[Mandro]

Egwene created a TAR version of Bela when she traveled to Salidar by imagining it and that Bela was fully functional. Yet, Perrin was unable to do so with Hopper after Hopper was killed for good by Isam. Why not? What exactly is the difference and what exactly did Egwene create? I realize of course that at the time the real Bela was alive. Did Egwene just pull her into TAR (assuming that Bela was asleep at the time)? if not, what happened?

 

Maybe it's that Bela was alive, and that animals are more willing to split their will.

split their will?? I don't understand what you mean. could you elaborate?

 

Hopper isn't the best example, but wasn't there a thing about hopper saying that wolves don't make a difference between the waking world and the dream world, insinuating that the wolves live in a conscious duality allowing them to be active in the waking world and in the dream world?

I don't remember if Hopper said something like this but I don't quite see why it matters to my question. Basically, I'm trying to understand what if any living things can be created in TAR by imagining them. It worked for Bela but not for Hopper.

 

I meant that maybe she didn't create, but call. I'm clarifying something that I should have made clear in the first response, sorry for all the time. It was really just conjecture. I am pretty sure hopper said something like that in TDR while perrin was trapped in the dream to save faile, but I'm not sure. I haven't dug up any of the books before TFoH yet.

[herid]

Egwene created a TAR version of Bela when she traveled to Salidar by imagining it and that Bela was fully functional. Yet, Perrin was unable to do so with Hopper after Hopper was killed for good by Isam. Why not? What exactly is the difference and what exactly did Egwene create? I realize of course that at the time the real Bela was alive. Did Egwene just pull her into TAR (assuming that Bela was asleep at the time)? if not, what happened?

 

Maybe it's that Bela was alive, and that animals are more willing to split their will.

split their will?? I don't understand what you mean. could you elaborate?

 

Hopper isn't the best example, but wasn't there a thing about hopper saying that wolves don't make a difference between the waking world and the dream world, insinuating that the wolves live in a conscious duality allowing them to be active in the waking world and in the dream world?

I don't remember if Hopper said something like this but I don't quite see why it matters to my question. Basically, I'm trying to understand what if any living things can be created in TAR by imagining them. It worked for Bela but not for Hopper.

 

I meant that maybe she didn't create, but call. I'm clarifying something that I should have made clear in the first response, sorry for all the time. It was really just conjecture. I am pretty sure hopper said something like that in TDR while perrin was trapped in the dream to save faile, but I'm not sure. I haven't dug up any of the books before TFoH yet.

right, that was the only thing I could think of (I mentioned this in the original post) - that Egwene didn't create a new Bela but brought the existing Bela into TAR. This is supposed to be a bad thing and somehow I didn't think it was as easy as what Egwene did with Bela.

[Mandro]

Egwene created a TAR version of Bela when she traveled to Salidar by imagining it and that Bela was fully functional. Yet, Perrin was unable to do so with Hopper after Hopper was killed for good by Isam. Why not? What exactly is the difference and what exactly did Egwene create? I realize of course that at the time the real Bela was alive. Did Egwene just pull her into TAR (assuming that Bela was asleep at the time)? if not, what happened?

 

Maybe it's that Bela was alive, and that animals are more willing to split their will.

split their will?? I don't understand what you mean. could you elaborate?

 

Hopper isn't the best example, but wasn't there a thing about hopper saying that wolves don't make a difference between the waking world and the dream world, insinuating that the wolves live in a conscious duality allowing them to be active in the waking world and in the dream world?

I don't remember if Hopper said something like this but I don't quite see why it matters to my question. Basically, I'm trying to understand what if any living things can be created in TAR by imagining them. It worked for Bela but not for Hopper.

 

I meant that maybe she didn't create, but call. I'm clarifying something that I should have made clear in the first response, sorry for all the time. It was really just conjecture. I am pretty sure hopper said something like that in TDR while perrin was trapped in the dream to save faile, but I'm not sure. I haven't dug up any of the books before TFoH yet.

right, that was the only thing I could think of (I mentioned this in the original post) - that Egwene didn't create a new Bela but brought the existing Bela into TAR. This is supposed to be a bad thing and somehow I didn't think it was as easy as what Egwene did with Bela.

 

and forcing others into TAR is Evil, so now Bela is evil? Who kills Bela?

[capeta]

Egwene did not create Bella in TAR she created a horse to ride that looked like Bella and she called it Bella.

She Imagined Bella there and ride-able.

 

Perrin tried to make Hopper live again by imagining him alive and standing there. Perrin could have made a fake wolf that looked like Hopper and would run around with him. However it would not have been Hopper and it would not have spoken to him. A copy was not what Perrin was trying to make.

 

the difference what what Perrin wanted was not possible for him. Maybe the DO could have done something about Hopper but not Perrin.

 

-Cap

[Mandro]

Egwene did not create Bella in TAR she created a horse to ride that looked like Bella and she called it Bella.

She Imagined Bella there and ride-able.

 

Perrin tried to make Hopper live again by imagining him alive and standing there. Perrin could have made a fake wolf that looked like Hopper and would run around with him. However it would not have been Hopper and it would not have spoken to him. A copy was not what Perrin was trying to make.

 

the difference what what Perrin wanted was not possible for him. Maybe the DO could have done something about Hopper but not Perrin.

 

-Cap

 

Perrin wanted to resurect the living will, while egwene simply created a construct that she named? Like her clothing, she built a form of locomotion, and identified it as bela? But the original post stands, there are no other constructs that indicate living creatures. Thats Golem teritory. I don't think it's an important question, just an interesting one, and since RJ seems to be a pretty scientific writer, He might have thought it out. THOUGH! Originaly, in The Great Hunt, I read it when it was released, Lans Sword was NOT power wrought, which demonstrated the difference between most swords, including the sword of Malkieri kings and the sword that Tam gave Rand, later it was changed.

[Mats Spare Hat]

That'd be a whacky conversation between Perrin & Egwene

 

Egwene: You stopped balefire???

Perrin: pssh, it's only a weave!

 

Perrin: You dreamed a horse???

Egwene: pffff, yeah!

 

[herid]

Egwene did not create Bella in TAR she created a horse to ride that looked like Bella and she called it Bella.

She Imagined Bella there and ride-able.

 

Perrin tried to make Hopper live again by imagining him alive and standing there. Perrin could have made a fake wolf that looked like Hopper and would run around with him. However it would not have been Hopper and it would not have spoken to him. A copy was not what Perrin was trying to make.

 

the difference what what Perrin wanted was not possible for him. Maybe the DO could have done something about Hopper but not Perrin.

 

-Cap

This would be a possibility but I don't think I buy it given the description of what Egwene did. Egwene specifically thought of Bela, not of a lookalike.

 

There stood Bela, the short shaggy mare she had ridden out of the Two Rivers a lifetime ago. Only a dream-Bela, but the stout mare tossed her nose and whickered at sight of her.

 

Egwene dropped her burdens and flung her arms around the horse’s head. “I’m glad to see you again, too,” she whispered. That dark liquid eye looking at her was Bela’s, reflection or no.

 

 

 

 

and forcing others into TAR is Evil, so now Bela is evil? Who kills Bela?

well, I always knew that Bela was Evil. I think we finally found Demandred's alter ego.

 

 

That'd be a whacky conversation between Perrin & Egwene

 

Egwene: You stopped balefire???

Perrin: pssh, it's only a weave!

 

Perrin: You dreamed a horse???

Egwene: pffff, yeah!

 

ROFL!

[herid]

On second thought, I think capeta is essentially right. from that quote it's clear that Egwene knew that real Bela was somewhere else and what she tried to make was a TAR copy of it. as good a copy as she could manage, but still a copy. Perrin tried to imagine actual Hopper, not a copy.

[RahulSingh]

On second thought, I think capeta is essentially right. from that quote it's clear that Egwene knew that real Bela was somewhere else and what she tried to make was a TAR copy of it. as good a copy as she could manage, but still a copy. Perrin tried to imagine actual Hopper, not a copy.

Is this a real distinction or one that we are trying to assume is the reason behind the issue at hand?

Did'nt perrin know he was trying to make a copy?

[LemonPastie]

my take on this is the motivation behind why each of them was creating the animal

 

Egwene was looking for the transport, knew she could create a horse by imagining it to be there, and bam there Bela was. Perrin on the other hand knew that death in TAR is final and so however much he wanted Hopper to appear beside him, his true belief was that there was no bringing Hopper back.

 

An interesting aside from this is if Hopper hadn't told him all along that there was no coming back from a TAR death, would Perrin then have been able to bring him back? I also believe that if Perrin had created Hopper, anything Hopper had then said to Perrin would only be Perrin creating the conversation, and Hopper would have disappeared as soon as Perrin left TAR

[Tollieman]

I agree with Capeta, the difference was Egwene knew she was making a copy of Bela.

Perrin was trying to recreate the real Hopper. I see it essentially that if Perrin wanted to create a mirror-image/copy of Hopper, he could, easily. However, he wouldn't obviously.

 

I'm also guessing that while 'alive' in TAR, Moghedien (or anyone with the skill) could have pushed Hopper back into the real world, same as Birgitte. Of course, finding someone who would bind a wolf as warder to keep them alive is another story

 

That'd be a whacky conversation between Perrin & Egwene

 

Egwene: You stopped balefire???

Perrin: pssh, it's only a weave!

 

Perrin: You dreamed a horse???

Egwene: pffff, yeah!

 

 

Awesome stuff!

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Only the DO or Lord of the Grave can actively take/pluck threads and weave them back into the pattern if they've been weaved out due to death. TAR is not outside the pattern so it is impossible to directly pull a weave back into the pattern.

[herid]

On second thought, I think capeta is essentially right. from that quote it's clear that Egwene knew that real Bela was somewhere else and what she tried to make was a TAR copy of it. as good a copy as she could manage, but still a copy. Perrin tried to imagine actual Hopper, not a copy.

Is this a real distinction or one that we are trying to assume is the reason behind the issue at hand?

Did'nt perrin know he was trying to make a copy?

Perrin didn't phrase it as if he were trying to make a copy. He thought "Hopper lives". I know it's slightly forced and involves some mental gymnastics but it's the best explanation I've seen so far.

[Skeeve the Great]

Another big difference - domesticated animals are not projected in TAR.

[herid]

Another big difference - domesticated animals are not projected in TAR.

why not? what's the difference between a dog and a stag as far as TAR is concerned?

[Tollieman]

Only the DO or Lord of the Grave can actively take/pluck threads and weave them back into the pattern if they've been weaved out due to death. TAR is not outside the pattern so it is impossible to directly pull a weave back into the pattern.

 

Birgitte goes to TAR when she dies. Of course, it's because of being a HOTH, but the fact remains that she dies and goes to TAR. Wolves go to TAR when they die because that's how wolves work. So what would the difference be?

[Mats Spare Hat]

Another big difference - domesticated animals are not projected in TAR.

why not? what's the difference between a dog and a stag as far as TAR is concerned?

 

I'm not sure the 'why' part is ever elaborated on in the literature, but the note about domesticated/tame vs. wild animals and whether or not they have reflections in the world of dreams is stated clearly enough...I can't point to which page and which book, but it's definitely there.

[herid]

Another big difference - domesticated animals are not projected in TAR.

why not? what's the difference between a dog and a stag as far as TAR is concerned?

 

I'm not sure the 'why' part is ever elaborated on in the literature, but the note about domesticated/tame vs. wild animals and whether or not they have reflections in the world of dreams is stated clearly enough...I can't point to which page and which book, but it's definitely there.

hmm, I don't remember this mentioned in any of the books. was it in some interviews perhaps? in either case I'd love a pointer.

[Hadilmir]

It's sometime during the dreaded Elayne and Nynaeve in the menagerie chapters, good luck.

 

I'd say it has something to do with T'A'R being the subconscious world and wild animals always relying on instinct, whereas domesticated animals can consciously decide not to react as their instincts suggest. Just speculation of course.

[haloun]

it is brought up in other places as well, i think, if i remember correctly hopper comments on it to perrin as well. the wise ones discuss it with egwene, nyn and elayne talk about it while in the menagerie, it is well documented. it might also be in the BWB, nut I am not sure. Anyways, the main difference is that perrin was trying to believe a lie. whereas egwene simply imagined bela, she also imagined that bela could run like the wind and everything else, it isnt really golem territory to say so, it is the laws of TAR, bela vanished when egwene was gone, she didnt stay because egwene didnt stay, hopper wouldnt come because he was finished, dead, gone until the wheel started over and gave him a new thread in the tapestry.