Cadsuane

[Jorik Alarin]

OzzieAlThor, since when does special mean omnipotent? I've never said that Rand is omnipotent, nor infallible, nor perfect. But he IS the only person that can save the world from never ending suffering, i'd say thats a pretty "special" person right there. And i certainly admit that Rand has many of his own faults, arrogance, peevishness, childishness, madness, and a temper. (although, i really do believe that some of those are either magnified by his psychological condition and the taint, or exist partly because of LTT's presence) Truthfully at this point in the series i like Rand only marginally better than Cadsuane. He has become a whiny, detached, self righteous prig. BUT i still don't think being confronted with a person that berates, belittles and abuses him when ever she thinks its necessary is the right "treatment". And where does he show that he is forgetting that he can fail?, seriously all we read about recently is him crying about "losing" to the Seanchan, getting all those women killed and him being too weak to "protect" those he loves. And he sure does need advice, and yes Cadsuane has given him some good advice, my problem is her methods, her demeanor, and her actions. And i know that you will all, jump all over the "necessity" of her delivery style, I DISAGREE.

 

When you're trying to control the free world without killing everyone in it, it IS important to have intellect and experience.

 

Seriously look at that statement, i mean look at what you are saying. You are defending Cadsuane (and The Towers) attempt to do just what you are against Rand for. Do you really think that the world was better off under Aes Sedai control?

 

Also, Min is VERY specific when talking about what she knows for certain. She has said that Rand "will" lose without Moiraine, i think that if the stakes were as high with Cadsuane she would have stated so. But, i will acknowledge the point. Reframed it will go like this, Cadsuane: "All the arrogance of The Dragon Reborn,less than half the importance."

[Jorik Alarin]

Cwestervelt:

 

Again, i simply ask you, do you really think that Cadsuane treating Rand with the respect due an equal counts as sycophantic? The wise ones don't fawn over him, but they don't treat him like an idiot either. Neither Verin, nor Berelain go all lap dog around him. The Maidens SURE as hell don't. In fact of all the major female characters which ones actually are sycophantic? Because i can't see any of the big players acting that way. Moiraine could have come close to sycophantic near the very end, but she "died", and Lan made Rand feel like a jerk for doing it anyway.

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

 

That prophecy is very enlightening, in fact part of a passage makes it seem like Rand is acting precisely as he should. "in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield." Doesn't sound like his pride is a big no no in that part of the passage. "He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow." Now thats arrogance, and thats where everyone gets Cadsuanes mission from, i believe. But, where in that prophecy does it say "teach the arrogant to be humble?" I think humility is a valuable trait in the heroes i read about, but i've never read a book where it was necessary for them to win. (And i have by no means read every book everywhere, so it may exist) But i've never said that Rand isn't arrogant to the extreme, i just don't agree with Cadsuanes methods or character. And i see much better ways to deal with him.

Where he must change according to the prophecy is his detachment from the world, thats what i see as his "heart of stone." He is detached and indifferent, whats the point of saving the world if you can't feel any joy from it? Cadsuane sure isn't going to teach him that with her methods. Well, she will teach him to be pissed off and on edge all the time, he might cry from the frustration of having to deal with her....."And the soul of fire, love." And we ALL know Cadsuane can't teach him that. Now seriously, Cadsuane may be instrumental in him learning those things, i don't see it, but it may be.

 

Also, do you think he views Elayne, Avienda and Min as weak? I do not. Does he not listen to them? I believe he does. Does he not respect them? I'm sure that he must. Does he not heed their advice? We have examples of that when Elaynes talked about governing. Do you think he thinks of those three as "tools", because i don't. So, he must value something other than strength, or he would have just dodged out of the way and let Min get roasted.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Also, Min is VERY specific when talking about what she knows for certain. She has said that Rand "will" lose without Moiraine, i think that if the stakes were as high with Cadsuane she would have stated so. But, i will acknowledge the point. Reframed it will go like this, Cadsuane: "All the arrogance of The Dragon Reborn,less than half the importance."

 

Unfortunately, you are confused about which of Min's viewings is less ambiguous. The one about Cadsuane teaching Rand something is by far the more precise.

 

A tiny stab of guilt made her shift her seat on the coverlet. She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? He became bleak too easily as it was. She had to keep is spirits up, make him remember to laugh. Except....

A Crown of Swords Chapter 35 "Into the Woods" Page 543 (US hardcover, first printing)

 

This vision is vary ambiguous.

 

1) There actually is a possibility of victory even without the woman who was dead and gone. Its a slight chance, but not impossible

2) We don't know who it is about. The commonly accepted interpretation is that she is refering to Moiraine. I agree with that interpretation but I won't rule out other possibilities. It's certainly worth noting that Min thinks about her as "a woman who was dead and gone" rather than Moiraine. It is a distinctly different from how she thinks about her failed Moiraine vision when she sees Caraline Damodred a couple pages later.

3) We don't know when the vision was actually made, so it could refer to Cadsuane. It wasn't much before this scene that Aes Sedai all over the place were sitting there saying "I thought you were dead" everytime Cadsuane walked into a room. (Which would rightfully irritate anyone in Cadsuane's place by the way.)

 

There isn't a single part of the vision that has a definite interpretation.

 

Min sat back on her heels, folded her arms beneath her breasts and gave him a firm look. After a moment, she decided it was not working and signed. "It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

A Crown of Swords Chapter 41 "A Crown of Swords" Page 642 (US hardcover first printing)

 

This vision is virtually unequivocal

 

1) Cadsuane is going to teach something. A definite statement. The fact that she is going to teach it indicates they are going to learn it.

2) It's something they have to learn. Another definite statement. Learning it isn't an option but mandatory.

3) They won't like learning it. A third definite statement.

 

The only unknown aspect of the vision is what will be taught.

[Jorik Alarin]

I must say that "interpretation" of Min's vision almost had me going. Then i re read the "couple" more pages, and i would say it is nigh impossible to confuse the "Moiraine" prophecy with the "Cadsuane" one.

 

ACoS, pg. 700 paperback. "Min sighed regretfully, but it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

 

I dare say that there is no way that the ONE vision of Mins associated with Moiraine was actually refering to Cadsuane. And since Cadsuane showed up alive, and Min was sure of her prophecy, it cannot apply to her, or she would have had an epiphany. Its the whole one thing that gets it, Min has only ever had one written about "vision" involving Moiraine. And that one was, that she must be present at the last battle or, Rand will lose. I actually see that as more of an allusion to Moiraines return, because; Mins visions are NEVER wrong when she is certain of the meaning of them, and Min was certain of the meaning of the "Moiraine" one. And i can't believe that RJ is heartless enough to let the Shadow win.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Again, i simply ask you, do you really think that Cadsuane treating Rand with the respect due an equal counts as sycophantic? The wise ones don't fawn over him, but they don't treat him like an idiot either. Neither Verin, nor Berelain go all lap dog around him. The Maidens SURE as hell don't. In fact of all the major female characters which ones actually are sycophantic? Because i can't see any of the big players acting that way. Moiraine could have come close to sycophantic near the very end, but she "died", and Lan made Rand feel like a jerk for doing it anyway.

 

And I ask you? Do you honestly think Rand would pay any attention to her if she did? He does not believe he has any equals. It is interesting that you mention the Wise Ones and Maidens. Have you not noticed how they treat Rand in much the manner same as Cadsuane? Was it Sulin or Nandera that beat the crap out of him when he was acting childish towards them? The Wise One's may not have directly bullied Rand, but they did bully the other Clan Chiefs until Rand started listening.

 

That prophecy is very enlightening, in fact part of a passage makes it seem like Rand is acting precisely as he should. "in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield." Doesn't sound like his pride is a big no no in that part of the passage.

 

Apparently you missed the part that states "There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land." You're taking a single statement from the passage and attempting to use it completely out of context. His pride is a big part of the reason no good thing can grow so it certainly cannot be seen as a good thing. He is acting as it was foretold he would. That is not the same as saying he should act that way or that it is a good thing for him to do doing so.

 

Also, do you think he views Elayne, Avienda and Min as weak? I do not. Does he not listen to them? I believe he does. Does he not respect them? I'm sure that he must.

Does he view them as weak? Yes. He refuses to accept that they are capable of looking out for themselves. He sees them more as porcelain dolls that might break than real people? Does he listen to them? He used to and still does listen to Min. Of course, she needed to bully him until he did. He doesn't listen to Elayne or Aviendha anymore. After all, it is rather hard to listen to someone that you basically refuse to let near you. Does he respect them? No, for all the same reasons as he sees them as week.

 

....."And the soul of fire, love." And we ALL know Cadsuane can't teach him that. Now seriously, Cadsuane may be instrumental in him learning those things, i don't see it, but it may be.

 

I don't believe I ever said that laugher and tears (or love for that matter) is what Cadsuane must teach Rand. They don't fit Min's viewing as it is a lesson that all of the Asha'man must learn. The biggest thing that all of them need to learn, and none of them will like learning, is humility. As a group, they are the most arrogant bunch of jerks you're ever going to find. They make the steroetypical high school jock look like a pansy. They aren't going to learn humility until they finally comprehend what kind of fools they are. It will take some serious doses of Rand being embarrassed about his behaviour before that happens. He's lucky Cadsuane only slapped him across the face. He deserved having his hide tanned.

 

Anyway, I hope I you will start seeing the trend in how people, particularly women, have managed to gain Rand's respect. The bigger the bully the were towards him, the more he respected and listened to them.

[Jorik Alarin]

Cwestervelt:

Are you purposely ignoring the filet to go for the bones? You accuse me of selective interpretation, and then do it yourself. I rattled a list of names that are major players and aren't sycophantic and DO treat Rand well, and you go for the ONLY example in the bunch that has assaulted Rand (and they did it because he ALREADY treated them poorly, not because he MIGHT have, which is the reason that i gather you are defending Cadsuane so vehemently for, he MIGHT treat her badly.)

 

And you STILL haven't named ANY females in the book that are major players that do act all sycophantic around Rand. I mean seriously EVERY woman thats a major player in the books takes her shots at bringing Rand down a peg or two, or fifty. So, if you like the character of Cadsuane and all of her attitudes and actions, well thats your right, but please don't try and convince me shes this "stern aunt" who is really this non arrogant woman who only has the purest motives for doing what she does, and is only doing it the way she does because thats the "only" way to do it. Also, i think that believing that shes all those things is disingenuous, there are no characters like that in RJ's books. Cadsuane is arrogant, commanding, abusive, and self righteous and thats great for her, but I certainly don't think shes a good character. And until she redeems herself in my eyes(by teaching whatever lesson Rand needs to learn) i will continue to view her as the worst character in the series.

 

I believe i have given many examples of women who are respected by Rand, listened to by Rand, and advise Rand, and oh yeah they don't slap him, call him "boy", or try to aggravate him to the point of explosion. And yes Rand and the Asha'man must learn something from Cadsuane, and what i hope those puffed up egoists learn, is that they must take women as seriously as they take men.

 

 

I am quite shocked that you actually think that Rand views his "wives" as weak, i mean what person isn't very protective of the one they love? And he can't really see them as too weak, or he wouldn't have let them go off on their own. He removed his army from Camelyn, at Elaynes request, that shows respect. He allows, well more like cannot stop, Min to accompany him, even into dangerous situations. That shows he doesn't think shes a porcelain doll, and he really can't stop Aviendha from doing anything, hardly weak characters. Rand is really a total wuss when it comes to women, i've stated it elsewhere, but if the DO really wanted Rand dead,the DO would just send soldiers, and channelers that were all female against him.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Jorik Al'arin: I must say that "interpretation" of Min's vision almost had me going. Then i re read the "couple" more pages, and i would say it is nigh impossible to confuse the "Moiraine" prophecy with the "Cadsuane" one.

 

ACoS, pg. 700 paperback. "Min sighed regretfully, but it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

 

I dare say that there is no way that the ONE vision of Mins associated with Moiraine was actually refering to Cadsuane. And since Cadsuane showed up alive, and Min was sure of her prophecy, it cannot apply to her, or she would have had an epiphany. Its the whole one thing that gets it, Min has only ever had one written about "vision" involving Moiraine. And that one was, that she must be present at the last battle or, Rand will lose. I actually see that as more of an allusion to Moiraines return, because; Mins visions are NEVER wrong when she is certain of the meaning of them, and Min was certain of the meaning of the "Moiraine" one. And i can't believe that RJ is heartless enough to let the Shadow win.

 

Did you even read what I said, or was it simply beyond your level of comprehension?

 

First, since you obviously missed it, I will repeat myself. "The commonly accepted interpretation is that she is refering to Moiraine. I agree with that interpretation but I won't rule out other possibilities." This time, please note that I do agree the first was talking about Moiraine. I was showing how the vision was inspecific. We don't know that she would have an epiphany when she sees the woman in question. The phrasing of the vision provides for the possibility of Min not recognizing the woman in question. To me, it sounds like Min isn't certain who the woman is. Maybe she was unable to see more than a vague feminine shape. After all, if it was someone that Min recognized, like Moiraine, why does she not provide the name?

 

Where is it stated that "Min has only ever had one written about "vision" involving Moiraine. And that one was, that she must be present at the last battle or, Rand will lose." I provided the complete text where we were told about that vision. It never actually mentions Moiraine, nor does it say failure is guaranteed without her. Cadsuane was the first alternate that came to mind and I grant you it wasn't really a good one. How about Morgase? She definitely fits the bill for being someone that both Rand and Min consider, erroneously, to be dead and gone. RJ seems to keep her kicking around for some reason. In addition to not saying Moiraine, the vision also never says that he will fail. I can help it if you insist on interpretting "almost certainly fail" as saying the same thing, but I can assure you they do not.

 

Now, to put your quoted passage into context. You do understand what context means don't you? I honestly want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but seeing how you routinely disregard it I am starting to have serious concerns that you don't.

 

Before he could answer, crackling brush and leaves announced someone coming. The rider who appeared on a long-legged gray gelding with brightly fringed bridle was a Cairhienin woman, short and slender in a dark blue, nearly black, silk riding dress, horizontal slashes of red and green and white running from her neck to below her knees. The sweat on her face could not diminish her pale beauty, or make her eyes less than large dark pools. A small clear green stone hung on her forehead from a fine golded chain fastened in black hair that fell in waves to her shoulders.

 

Min gasped, and not for the hunting crossbow the woman carried casually raised in one green-gloved hand. For a moment, she was sure it was Moiraine. But....

 

"I do not recall seeing either of you in the camp," the woman said in a throaty, almost sultry voice. Moiraine's voice had been crystal. The crossbow lowered, still quite casually, until it pointed rock-steady at Rand's chest.

 

He ignored it. "I thought I might like to take a look at your camp," he said with a slight bow. "I believe you are Lady Caraline Damodred?" The slender woman inclined her head, acknowledging the name.

 

Min sighed regretfully, but it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed. But Caraline Damodred herself, one fo the leaders of the rebellion agaist Rand her in Cairhien, and a claimang to the Sun Throne.... He really was pulling all the threads of the Pattern around him, to have her appear.

A Crown of Swords Chapter 35 "Into the Woods" pages 545 and 546 (US hardcover first printing)

 

Min's is no longer thinking about her "woman who was dead and gone" vision. That is a vision that she appears to associate with Rand by the way. What starts her thinking about her "failed" Moiraine viewing is her seeing someone that she initially thinks is Moiraine when Caraline Damodred arrived. They are 2 seperate viewings. One about Rand, one about Moiraine.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Are you purposely ignoring the filet to go for the bones? You accuse me of selective interpretation, and then do it yourself. I rattled a list of names that are major players and aren't sycophantic and DO treat Rand well, and you go for the ONLY example in the bunch that has assaulted Rand (and they did it because he ALREADY treated them poorly, not because he MIGHT have, which is the reason that i gather you are defending Cadsuane so vehemently for, he MIGHT treat her badly.)

 

The wise ones don't fawn over him, but they don't treat him like an idiot either. Neither Verin, nor Berelain go all lap dog around him. The Maidens SURE as hell don't.

 

The Wise One's don't fawn over him. The do bully him like crazy, shame him, treat him like an idiot who knows nothing, undermine his dealings with the clan chiefs...

 

Berelain, he treats as an adminstrator and not much else.

 

Verin, its hard to say what he thinks of Verin. For the most part he hardly notices that she is there. He certainly doesn't bother going to her for advice.

 

I honestly didn't think it was necessary to go through your complete list to show that Rand only recognizes people that are forceful.

 

Where's the difference between the Maidens and Cadsuane. You say they beat Rand up because he was already treated them poorly. Granted. You've also just provided justification for Cadsuane's initial treatment of Rand as he was already treating the Aes Sedai like dirt. In both cases it was the only thing they could to gain his respect. If it was ok for the Maidens, why not for Cadsuane.

 

I'm not going to waste anymore time on you. You're simply looking for a fight with whoever is willing to take you up. I lost interest long ago and should have just let it go. I'm sure in your little world you will see that as a victory for you, and I really don't care.

[Wise One]

An interesting point on the Moiraine front is that it was after she stopped trying to force him to listen to her and decided to pander to his wishes that he actually started listening. Also, I suspect his feelings of guilt over her would have been far less if she died before her change of strategy.

 

On the viewings front, I accept they are all ambiguous. I believe the 'woman dead and gone' is Moiraine, as Min goes on about failed viewings of Moiraine quite regularly in her POV sections (especially n KOD).

 

Now, I don't know if this has been mentioned before (I've read most of the thread but not all), but I would like to add something more to my previous point on why Cadsuane is the one to teach Rand.

 

Lets assume, for the moment, that the lesson he must learn is humility. Well, I think that links nicely to the hints we have of her experience with the wilder who gave her the ornaments. She taught Cadsuane humility, and now Cadsuane is doing the same for Rand. Now, Cadsuane doesn't appear very humble, but I think people let the way she treats Rand and some Aes Sedai taint their view of her treatment of everyone. One thing that really angers her is Rand's lack of manners, not just directed at her, but everyone. I think she is arrogant and haughty, but she also has a certain degree of respect for most nobles and the like around her (note this is more acceptable in a class-based society), and her entire arrogant presence is largely a very effective tool she uses to get things her way (which ALL people do, whether we want to admit it or not).

 

Finally, Cadsuane's lessions from the wilder (and I think its pretty clear what kind of things they were) haven't made her any less strong, so the way she treats Rand may strengthen him in the end.

[Guest cwestervelt]

An interesting point on the Moiraine front is that it was after she stopped trying to force him to listen to her and decided to pander to his wishes that he actually started listening. Also, I suspect his feelings of guilt over her would have been far less if she died before her change of strategy.

 

Wise One, while it might be an interesting point about Moiraine, it was also completely different situation than we have between Cadsuane and Rand. It's like the proverbial apples to oranges. Moiraine had his attention from the very beginning, when Rand was still just a "woolheaded sheepherder". Cadsuane was late on the scene and dealing with someone who concidered threatening to hang someone as being the only way to get people to accept your authority. Moirane needed to overcome stubborness. You can't deal with stubborness by force which is why she had to change tactics. Cadsuane needed to overcome arrogance. Rand was not the walking stone and absolute tyrant, despot if you prefer, that he is when Cadsuane arrives on scene. Before Moiraine left, he had started changing, but Moiraine's continued presense had been restraining him to a degree. When the undeath of both Morgase and Moiraine occurred within 24 hours of each other, Rand was pushed over an emotional cliff.

[OzzieAlThor]

Cadsuane is a reality check for Rand.

 

Nothing more.

[Jorik Alarin]

Cwestervelt:

 

I will not continue to argue against your fawning, dare i say, sycophantic support of Cadsuane. You see it your way, i see it mine. You have shown nothing besides your own specious arguments for the necessity of her behavior. I have given plenty of examples of female characters that Rand does listen to and respect, and you still cannot supply me with one example of a major female character in the series that DOES act servile around Rand. Nor can you show me any examples of Rand acting "tyrannical". In fact if you read carefully all the places where he has conquered, you would see examples of his laws bringing people justice, all people, not just the wealthy and aristocratic. And most of the "negative" reactions from secondary characters are because of these shifts towards a more just society. I mean, what wealthy aristocrat would want to accept laws that treat him the same as a commoner? You sir, are incapable of doing it because said example doesn't exist. And if you cannot give an examples, your whole argument for Cadsuanes behavior falls to pieces. Except, as a strong female foil for Rands own egocentrical attitudes. As OzzieAlThor states.

[Luckers]

You do realise that no one else agrees with your assertions about your 'plenty' of examples and cwestervelts failure to respond to them. Frankly i think cwestervelt was very systematic and extensive in his responses, whilst yours were contentious, unthoughtful, and emotional.

 

Deal with your own failures before attacking other posters.

[Jorik Alarin]

Deal with your own failures before attacking other posters.

Luckers:

 

I find it very humorous that you of all people have anything negative to say about "attacking" other posters; you i believe were the first to throw out personal insults in this thread. And as for other posters agreeing with me, i believe that if you look around this web site you would find plenty of people who dislike Cadsuanes character, and if you asked them i'd bet the reasons they would give would be close to my own. I'm just one of them that doesn't mind posting about it and absorbing all the "fanboy" ire. This is after all the internet, and debates here accomplish as much as spitting into the wind.

 

Oh, and since you are back, maybe you could point out a major female character in the book that is Rands' sycophant? If you do, i'll concede my "failures", and if you can't, then just admit it doesn't exist.

[n00l3y]

Sorry if i missed anything...I breezed past most of the posts.

 

To be frank, I really hate Cadsuane. She is an arrogant Aes Sedai to the bone and someone which I wouldn't mind seeing dead by the end of the series.

 

However, it would be unfair to say that she is unsuccessful. Her progress may be slow, but Rand is gradually becoming more controlled. I don't have the proper quote, but I remember somewhere when Cads was counting up to three before spanking Rand. Did Rand retaliate? No, partially because he feared Cads, and also because he has seen that violence is not the only way.

 

Still, Cadsuane alone could not have achieved this. I believe that Rand's progress has been due to Min's concern, Elayne and Aviendha's acceptance of him, his own maturity and a lot of other minor factors which allowed Cad's demand for respect from him to be rather effective.

 

Oh and on a sidenote, I disagree with those who call Rand a snob. Sure, he can be daft at times, but he has a burden twice as heavy as anyone else. Of course he'll be stressed, emotionless and whatever.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh, and since you are back, maybe you could point out a major female character in the book that is Rands' sycophant? If you do, i'll concede my "failures", and if you can't, then just admit it doesn't exist.

 

 

Um .... can you name a major female character who hasn't smacked Rand around a bit for being pompous? Verbally at least, and usually physically too? Min punches him regularly. Min pulls her knives on him. Nynaeve used to spank him, and Aviendha has given him rough treatment both physical and verbal. Egwene raps him on the head. Elayne hasn't hit him, that we've seen, but she's certainly given him a verbal piece of her mind from time to time. The Maidens beat him. All of the major characters as you put it are there to offset all the hundreds of minor characters, male and female, who are his sycophants.

 

Rand is not a present day, go to my therapy sessions on the weekends renaissance man in touch with his feminine side. Anyone who treated him the way you seem to be espousing would be simply ignored. He responds to people in general, and women in particular, who are assertive and often blunt. Cadsuane knows this, which is why she acts the way she does. She acts in whatever way will effectively accomplish her goal. A good example of this is the way she consciously butters up Samitsu. If acting the way she is toward Rand wasn't doing what she wanted it to do, she would have changed her tactic by now.

[Jorik Alarin]

Um .... can you name a major female character who hasn't smacked Rand around a bit for being pompous? Verbally at least, and usually physically too? Min punches him regularly. Min pulls her knives on him. Nynaeve used to spank him, and Aviendha has given him rough treatment both physical and verbal. Egwene raps him on the head. Elayne hasn't hit him, that we've seen, but she's certainly given him a verbal piece of her mind from time to time. The Maidens beat him. All of the major characters as you put it are there to offset all the hundreds of minor characters, male and female, who are his sycophants.

 

All these examples you give are a FAR cry from the treatment he recieves from Cadsuane, she treats him like a child an idiot and a scoundrel at EVERY opportunity. The rest of those examples never lose the knowledge that he is their equal. And most of their "battles" are private affairs far from the eyes of the populace. A populace that is supposed to depend on, and trust, Rand to save them. That doesn't mean i approve of their actions either. But Cadsuane seems to go out of her way to publicly humiliate him. Cadsuane acts exactly as you accuse Rand of acting, and people line up to defend her actions as noble, correct, and "necessary".

 

Do you like seeing Rand abused by women, does it excites you and make you think "hurrah girl power"? You don't see Rand as Cadsuanes equal, but you do think he needs the treatment he gets. I understand that this story is supposed to be a world reversal where women are the dominant sex. I just find it disconcerting that if the roles were reversed, and Rand was a woman, and the rest were males, beating the tar out of her and humilitaing her, the same people; i.e. You, cwestervelt and Luckers would be trashing the books as terrible and misogynistic. I wonder where your misanthropy stems from, and whether you can even see your hypocrisy? My argument has never been that Rand is this nice farm boy just shuckin and jiving along doing the best he can; and Cadsuane is this big ol' meany trying to dominate the only hope the world has. In fact i have stated several times that he is a pompus arrogant git, its just that he happens to be the last chance for the world. And i don't see Cadsuanes treatment of him as being beneficial.

 

n00l3y: Rand didn't retaliate against Cadsuane when she slapped him in the face the second time they ever met, and that was before she announced her "mission". He didn't retaliate because thats not how he behaves.

 

I will depart this thread with a quote from the woman whom i think was Rands best advisor.

 

"Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedai. I do not speak simply of the Black Ajah, though you must always be watchful for them. Be as suspicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin. We have made the world dance as we sang for three thousand years. That is a difficult habit to break, as I have learned while dancing to your song. You must dance free, and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as i once did."

 

Moiraine.

[Taishar Manetheren]

I think Kumira said it best:

 

"Cadsuane is Cadsuane. She seldom sees a swelled head without deciding to deflate it, even when it happens to be wearing a crown."

 

Of course, she was saying it on the ruler of Far madding, but i think Rand fits there just the same.

 

And dont forget Sorilea's advice to Cadsuane about how to deal with Rand. if you did forget then it was to ignore him until he comes to you or something like that...

[RobertAlexWillis]

But Cadsuane seems to go out of her way to publicly humiliate him.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "publicly". The only time she's done anything to/with/about him outside of his own personal set of close followers is when she got him out of jail in Far Madding. Not exactly humiliation. All the rest of the time she has been with him, they've either been OUT of the "public" eye, or she hasn't done anything to him (like, oh, say, exposing him when he popped into Toram Riatin's tent party outside Cairhien.

 

It is interesting that you call our opinions of Cadsuane "sycophantic".

 

Do you like seeing Rand abused by women, does it excites you and make you think "hurrah girl power"?

 

Since you are bringing it to a personal attack level, let me say, that is idiotic. Rand isn't being abused, and certainly not by Cadsuane. The worst thing she's done physically is slap him, and as you said, the worst effect that had is to surprise him. What else has she really done? What public setting has she undermined him in? Telling him something is a bad idea when it is a bad idea is not abuse.

 

She has kept him alive more than once. To satisfy your clamoring for examples:

 

#1. After he was struck by Fain's dagger, she made the first healing attempt. Samitsu later said to Cadsuane, "If I had been one moment slower, perhaps if you had not tried first, he would be dead now." (A Crown of Swords, Blades, p.565) Their combined effort kept him alive long enough to get him to Damer Flinn, who healed/sealed the wound off from his system.

 

#2. She organized the defense around Rand and Nynaeve when they used the Choedan Kal to cleanse the taint. That most certainly saved his life.

 

#3. She used her ter'angreal to exposed Semirhage, springing the trap before Semirhage planned to strike, preventing Rand from being captured by the Forsaken.

 

It is interesting to me to observe her reaction after learning of Rand's treatment when he was captured by the Tower Aes Sedai. The other sisters with her were horrified by his reaction that resulted in the stilling of three sisters. But while Rand is unconscious after the attack by Fain, this was Cadsuane's reaction. Allow me to quote:

 

"And Cadsuane ... Cadsuane touched Rand's pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. 'Do not be afraid, boy,' she said softly. 'They have made my task harder and yours, but I will not hurt you more than I must.'" (A Crown of Swords, Blades, p. 569-570)

 

Not exactly an abusive attitude. Cadsuane treats Rand the way she does for a reason. It is the only way to reach him. The touchy-feely, lay back on the couch and let's talk methods you're talking about simply would not work. Rand would completely ignore her if she acted that way. That is why all the women close to him, who he trusts, act in a similar fashion.

[liatildina]

Anyone who has a grandmother, especially one like mine, would instantly recognize Cadsuane. She is the one person who is not impressed by your perceived greatness, that can cut through all your crap and remind you that you are just as simple as the next kid in the family. I know Rand has the weight of the world resting with him, but he is still young and now unfortunatley slightly insane too.

 

Cadsuane treats Rand as the sheepherder he is. The guy has only been off the farm for brief moment in time. What Moraine began Cadsuane must finish.

 

Everytime the Dragon Reborn runs through the list of women in his head, his touchstone of guilt, he becomes Rand of the Two Rivers again. That list is what shows his humanity, even when he is outwardly being the prince of arrogance. Cadsuane is combining those two Rands, the sheepherder and the dragon reborn. Just like a grandmother who slaps down the college kid, you don't need to throw around those big words when your in my house, I know where you came from, Cadsuane cuts through all the crap. They have a simple relationship, she need's to guide him to the last battle, he needs a guide. The way she has handled Rand, yep handled him, has been effective. You can agree or disagree with her methods but it's working.

 

Would it help some if Cadsuane's character were male? Would it be easier if his guide wasn't the old arrogant b@#ch of an Aes Sedia, but a strong confident man?

 

Just asking...

[Luckers]

I disagree, I don't think Rand being a sheepherder is any more significant to Cadsuane then the Kings and Queens she kidnapped being royalty. She was treating him a person, not as an archetype of his social setting. Its the same way she treates everyone else too... including Aes Sedai. What you are is insignificant, who you are is what matters. If your worthy of respect and not just expecting it because of a title, she will give it.

[liatildina]

hmm... but i agree that Cadsuane wants Rand to be who he is and that she is trying to wake the sheepherder up in the Dragon. For the Dragon to go forward he must be who he is, earn respect, and bring everyone he can to the last battle. He needs that small bit of humility he has as Rand to balance the arrogance of the Dragon. What he is, the Dragon Reborn, who he is, Rand al'Thor. Moraine woke up the Dragon, Cadsuane is waking up Rand al'Thor.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Cadsuane treats Rand as the sheepherder he is. The guy has only been off the farm for brief moment in time. What Moraine began Cadsuane must finish.

 

I disagree with that, and agree with Luckers. Cadsuane treats Rand based on the merits of his actions, and no other metric. I find the example of her support of him during the cleansing of saidin incident particularly telling. 99.9% of the Aes Sedai in the world would have resisted him even touching the Choedan Kal, much less supported him using them in a way they did not understand. But Cadsuane recognized the necessity of the action, that he had a genuine well-thought through plan, and had prepared what he needed. So, based on the merits of his plan, she supported him thoroughly and effectively.

 

That not treating him like an office or an occupation. It's treating him like himself. When he's childish, she treats him like a child. When he's wrong, she treats him like he's wrong. And when he is right, she puts her considerable support directly behind him.

[OzzieAlThor]

Min punches him regularly. Min pulls her knives on him.

 

When he knows full good and well she won't use them. She is the most sympathetic character around Rand right now. Hell, she agrees with YOU about Cadsuane and her actions/attitude.

 

Nynaeve used to spank him,

 

As the town wisdom. Which was her role. Which he alos desrved at the time. Spanking your kids when they misbehave (which we can all agree, in this context/world, is acceptable for any village wisdom to do in replace of parents) is not mistreating them. Beating constantly? Yes. Spanking when thy've earned it? No.

 

and Aviendha has given him rough treatment both physical and verbal.

 

Physical? As stated earlier, Min is rougher physically on Rand. As for verbal, that was while she was trying to deny she loved him. It was simply a way for her to try and push him away, which didn't work so well obviously. Hell, it's a statment saying that if your mean to Rand he'll keep you around so it kind of proves the point Rand respondes well to that attitude! :lol:

 

 

Egwene raps him on the head.

 

After he pinched her and elayne in the but with the one power.

 

Tip: Pinching a woman's butt when she doesn't want you too = a rap in the head in ANY world. Real or fake.

 

Elayne hasn't hit him, that we've seen, but she's certainly given him a verbal piece of her mind from time to time.

 

When was the last time she yelled at him? Oh we read how she's going to do it and such. But best I can tell, In "The Shadow Rising" they spent all their time making out and such wherever/whenever they could. Then Elayne had to go. Next time she saw him, she bonded then boinked him.

 

If that's "abuse" then I would ask that my wife kick my ass daily.

 

The Maidens beat him.

 

Because he impeded on thier honor by not having them around for a few books. He knew. He excpected it. They would have done it to ANYONE who did that to him. Male or Female. Dragon reborn or not. Mess with a soldier's honor, prepare to face the consequences.

 

 

 

 

 

You can try again with other instances/people though if ya'd like.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um, Ozzie, I think you missed my point. I was pointing out that all these other women he trusts do things like that, and they aren't considered abusive ... and that by extension it is silly to consider Cadsuane abusive.

 

Man I thought I presented my arguments more clearly than I apparently do. I'm all for Cadsuane slapping him if thats the only way to get through.