Moriane

[RJJT86]

The Aelfinn and the Eelfinn share a world' date=' and as long as that world is connected to Randland (as it still is through the [i']ter'angreal[/i] doorway in Tear, at the very least) physical distance is irrelevant to maintaining the Warder bond intact. Jonn and several others in the "Who killed Asmodean?" string will say "Well, something else could have done it." or "Maybe Moiraine just passed the bond." But the only things that we know of that cause the reactions we've seen in Lan are the death or stilling of a Warder's Aes Sedai. Moiraine only set the bond up to transfer to Myrelle in case of catastrophic severing of the bond, to prevent Lan from dying to avenge her or returning to his war in the Blight. She was planning for her death, but being stilled is an equivalent change as far as the bond is concerned. As far as "something else" causing the effect, the only possible reason for Jordan to make up "something else" so that there would remain a miniscule chance that Moiraine killed Asmodean.

 

I didn't know that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn share a world. I thought they were two different planes, with similar people, onle one's snakes and the other's foxes. So by my thought process it would have made sense to think that if the connection to the world of the Eelfinn (it was the Eelfinn at Rhuidean right?) was destroyed then it could logically have been the destruction of the gateway that severed the Warder bond with Lan.

 

By the way, you and Luckers seem to know a bit more about the things Robert Jordan has written, either how many books have you read that have divulged secrets about the things discussed in the books, or how many times have you both read the books?

[Luckers]

I usually read the series around twice a year, which i've been doing since i was 13 (im 18 now).

 

But im not a nerd! I swear! heh.

 

 

Oddly when I first read the part in book 4 when Moiraine and Lanfear went through the gateway and Lan felt the connection sever I never even contemplated it being because Moiraine had been severed herself I immediately thought it was something to do with the portal to the Finn dimension being destroyed.

 

Yet other pathways between the two realms still exist. The Tower of Genjii, if not the other doorway. And we know that the bond has survived inter-dimensional distance in the past.

 

The main reason for my thoughts to not include Moiraine being severed was that there was no cause for her to be severed. I'll admit I can't remember if she was holding the Power or not but even if her and Lanfear both were holding the Power Moiraine used physical force to shove Lanfear through the tunnel she didn't use the power. Lanfear was too distracted at the time to use anymore of the Power than she was already using so unless that was very close to her limit I don't think that either one was in danger of being stilled

 

They were both channeling, and were both using the same angreal to do so meaning they were both filled with more of the power then they could normally hold. Now the dangers of them both using the same angreal aside, whilst they were doing this they fell into a ter'angreal that then exploded. We have been warned since the begining of the series that channeling near a ter'angreal... even one you know and have used before, can be hazzardous. Channeling whilst passing through a ter'angreal that was destroyed by the action... the likelyhood that they weren't burned out is extremely low.

 

I can definitely see how the whole stilling thing could be an option but I don't buy it simply because stilling or gentling is something that only the extremely powerful (Rand, some of the Forsaken, a select few others) can do without a circle to aid them especially with two of the most powerful female channelers in the world.

 

This actually isn't true. A channeler can't be shielded by someone conciderably weaker then them once they hold the power, but once a shield is in place, actually stilling or gentleing them is easy--it just has to be sharper. The Aes Sedai are required by law to have thirteen sisters led by the Amyrlin Seat in stilling or gentling a man or woman, but that is just custom.

 

But the fact is that what happened to Moiraine and Lanfear is far more likely burning out, not stilling or gentleing. In fact i would suggest that it is impossible that they were stilled since they are the only two channelers in Finnland.

 

1) Who healed her? None of the Forsaken could. Even Moridin, only a couple of chapters before she returns on stage, still regards it as impossible even though he knows it isn't.

 

An Aes Sedai. Moghedian had been brought back to the fold of the Shadow before Cyndane appeared, and she knew of the healing. Travelling was also known to the Aes Sedai at this time. When Cyndane was returned to life unable to channel, it seems more then probable that the command was sent to one of the Black Sisters in Salidar... something easily done through Aran'gar. The Black Sister wandered off, travelled to Shayol Ghoul, healed Cyndane, and returned. Likely without her even knowing the significance of the woman or what was going on.

 

Not only would it be easily done, it would be stupid not to.

 

2) Her loss in Power is not nearly significant enough to account for having been stilled and healed by a woman, and too much if she was healed by a man. Siuan and Leane went from at or near the top of the Aes Sedai pecking order to almost the very bottom. Were talking what 90th percentile to 10th? Suian can barely do things that she didn't even need to think about before being stilled. Lanfear starts at the top and stays there? Unlikely. At the very least, Graendal or Semirhage should be more powerful now.

 

Not true. Suine and Leane went from the top to the middle. Or rather the average. Most are discribed as being as strong as. They aren't strong, but nor absurdly weak. Remember too that Aes Sedai distribution of strength is a small scale. Only people of significant enough strength can become Aes Sedai, and the amount of strong Aes Sedai... well there are very few. Based on descriptions of Suine and Leane position, as well as a look at the Aes Sedai distribution im guessing the decrease in strength was roughly equal to what Lanfear/Cyndane experienced.

 

3) When did it occur? Pre-mortem makes no sense. Nynaeve detects something cut. She corrects pseudo-physical damage. Why would that carry over to a new body? Even if it was a partial servering of the link between the body and soul, the Transmigration should have corrected it. After all, her death would have created a total severing of the link to the soul. Post-resurrection brings us back to point 1 with the addition of the question of why sever and heal her if you are going to Mindtrap her?

 

Of course it would. If transmigration effected channeling in anyway then the other reborn ones would have had different strengths and Aran'gar would channel saidar. Channeling is a function of the soul, RJ has said this. And Nynaeve described a 'sense' of something cut. She never suggested that it was remotely physical.

 

The Shadow didn't sever her, and of course it saw to healing her. The Chosen are dwindling, and as you are so frequent to point out the Dark One looks down on Third Age channelers. Nevertheless she did disobey orders and come close to betraying the dark. Doubtless in the Age of Legends she would have been killed for it, but the Shadow couldn't afford to lose her now, so they mindbound her. It makes a lot of sense.

 

Heres a question, if you have complete control over someone due to a mindtrap, why weaken their strength? Its not like they can use it against you... and indeed, i dont see the Dark One fearing Lanfear even at her full strength.

[Mik]

On top of what Luckers posted above, we also have RJ foreshadowing in TDR. Thom is drunk and sad because of the loss of the women in his life (Morgase & Dena) and almost in the same breath expresses what a fine woman Moiraine is if she were not Aes Sedai.

 

There's more hints that Thom and Moiraine will be partners of a sort and considering Thom's background and feelings about Aes Sedai, that means Moiraine will have a different role to play then before her dive through the portal. A role without the One Power.

[Luckers]

I see her being healed. Also, it comes to mind that Thom stand a high chance of being able to learn to channel himself.

[RobertAlexWillis]

1) Who healed her? None of the Forsaken could. Even Moridin, only a couple of chapters before she returns on stage, still regards it as impossible even though he knows it isn't.

 

In addition to what Luckers said: Where does a Moridin POV say that he regards Healing stilling to be impossible? If it exists (and I certainly don't remember it) he was almost certainly thinking in terms of the One Power. Cyndane also could have been healed with the True Power, which we already know can Heal some things the One Power seemingly cannot. (Not that Luckers' points about Moghedien aren't very true as well.)

 

Luckers covered the other two fairly well. Now let me add some presumptive evidence that indicates that she WAS stilled.

 

Channeling is quite possible in the *finn's world. Rand channeled his sword to keep the Aelfinn away from him in the ter'angreal in the Stone. If Lanfear popped out on the other side, and she could channel, she would have kicked some serious Eelfinn butt rather than be taken and held. She would also have disposed of Moiraine in fairly short order. The facts that the Eelfinn took her, and that Moiraine isn't a little bubbling pool on the floor, indicate that Lanfear was unable to channel after the desctruction of the ter'angreal.

 

Seriously, the only reason to resist this idea is so that Moiraine could have killed Asmodean. If anyone else had been channeling around a ter'angreal that melted into stone slag, and they were stilled as a result, no one would be surprised at all.

[Luckers]

I like it when we work together. It's fun. :)

[KaptainKaos]

I'm definitely not completely convinced but I will have this among many other things to look deeper into since I am currently reading the series again anyway. I know the dangers of being near a ter'angreal while even holding the one power but Moiraine wasn't using the power or even battling with the power while she was going through the doorway. She did a sneak physical assault on Lanfear purposefully causing her to go through the gateway and while it seems evidence proves that Lanfear was stilled because of the fact that she was using a large amount of the power in her battle with Rand, Egwene, and Aviendha. Plus some of the facts that Luckers and Robert brought up really lean toward the fact that at least Lanfear would have been stilled. I guess since the effects of severing were so final at the time I read Shadows Rising I didn't want to believe it would happen to Moiraine but it seems that it is a possibility.

 

But on a side note this one you might have turned me around a bit on but sorry guys I'll never agree with the whole switching bodies thing... :D

[Luckers]

Moiraine was channeling when they went through the ter'angreal. Also she grabbed the angreal that Lanfear held as they passed through.

[RJJT86]

So was it the fact that there were two powerful channelers or that there was two taveren in the portal at Tear that was causing it to shake? Because Moiraine made it sound as if it was the fact that they were both taveren.

 

If the first was the case then it would make sense that the portal melted. But Moirain doesn't seem to think that is the cause in Tear. Which leads me to believe there had to be some other reason for the portal's melting besides just channeling.

[Cybertrolloc]

Do angreals need to be touched to work? And if so to start using one, do you need to touch it to continue using it or does the link attenuate with distance like with channelers linking?

 

I think Luckers covered it well except to stress that Lanfear was fighting Rand who had his own angreal--it seems reasonable that she was at her limit. Moiraine hits her in some fashion that allows her to grab the angreal and take the two of them through the door. Note Moiraine was holding the source, but it's not mentioned that she channeled anything.

 

Anyway, is it reasonable that some sort of partial severing happened to Lanfear in this instant? She's channeling at max and Moiraine grabs the angreal--we've seen all kinds of warnings about what happens if you hold to much of the power, but I think losing your ability to channel has been an all or nothing event anywhere else. Also Rand was trying to shield Lanfear at the time, maybe something happened in the second between the time she's attacking him and they fall through the doorway?

 

I think Suian and Leane's power loss is fairly significant, they mention it a few times (it's not reasonable that a good portion of the Salidar AS are that close in strength and near the top of the AS in OP strength. Stilling cancelled out the Oath Rod binding, but could that have something to do with it (can't see it myself)? Maybe the shadow improved the same-sex healing or didn't perform opposite sex healing very well?

 

So was it the fact that there were two powerful channelers or that there was two taveren in the portal at Tear that was causing it to shake? Because Moiraine made it sound as if it was the fact that they were both taveren.

That they were taveran. Simultaneous entry into Finnworld only happened then as far as we know.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I think we have seen examples of Angreal's being used both by direct touch, and by proximity. Rand's fat little man comes to mind were it appears that as long it is somewhere about his person (liked tucked in his belt) he can draw the power through it. Others, like Moiraine's appear to need to be held in the hand to work.

[KaptainKaos]

Quote from www.encyclopaedia-wot.org

 

One does not have to actually touch an angreal to draw the One Power through it. (TFoH,Ch21)

 

I would interpret this to mean that no angreal have to be touched to be used.

[Cybertrolloc]

Yes, I forgot the many counter example with Cads, Verin and Rand :oops: Is there anything in the rest of the post that can be elaborated on?

[Guest cwestervelt]

KaptainKaos: Quote from www.encyclopaedia-wot.org

 

One does not have to actually touch an angreal to draw the One Power through it. (TFoH,Ch21)

 

I would interpret this to mean that no angreal have to be touched to be used.

 

Before approaching, he reached out through the angreal in his coat pocket to seize saidin. There was no need to actually touch the carving of the fat little man with a sword, of course.

 

The passage refers specifically to the Angreal of Rand's that I mentioned above. It doesn't necessarily apply to all Angreal. Moiraine's indicate otherwise as she always unwrapped it before using it, and then wraps it up again afterwards. If it wasn't necessary to hold it directly, why not keep it protected in her pouch?

[Luckers]

Speaking of, what happened to that angreal... it just disapeared along the way.

[Cybertrolloc]

Rand lost the fat dude with sword angreal when he was kidnapped. Moiraine's is probably with her, it never turned up again?

 

cwestervelt, Cads wears one in her hair and uses it (any of them really), and there's no mention of how Verin uses the brooch she carries.

[KaptainKaos]

I'm absolutely sure why Moiraine has to take her angreal out everytime but she was always one to do things just for some certain effect out of those around her plus she speaks of focus when dealing with certain items maybe she just has better focus when she can see the angreal. I guess we will all just have to go to the reference from Fires of Heaven Chapter 21 and see what it says...

[Trib4l]

I'm glad nobody brought up the giant sa'angreal. I've always had this debate in my mind, and then remember that they have access keys which are actually ter'angreal. From what I can see in the books, ter'angral require physical contact.

[KaptainKaos]

Ter'angreal do not necessarily have to be touched to be affected by the power...

 

 

"Ter'angreal in close proximity can sometimes interact with unexpected and dangerous consequences." (The Dragon Reborn,Ch23)