Masema is a Wilder

[Guest cwestervelt]

I agree that it doesn't matter anymore and I doubt we will ever find out who it actually was. The main reasons for suspecting Aram was his perpetual un-Tinkerish behaviour, even in The Eye of the World when he first met Perrin and Egwene. To have him latch on to Perrin the way he did later just seemed odd and made him stand out a little.

 

It added an unanticipated surprise to his turning on Perrin. Here I am, waiting for it to happen for several books and when it does its for all the wrong reasons. Go figure.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

Masema had fought alot in the east of Shienar before meeting Rand, so he has an innate hatred for Rand because he knows the look of an Aielman. But in TGH, seeing him in the sky fighting what he thought was the DO is already a sight that turned his world upside down.

 

A violent change in his thought was right there before his eyes and he couldn't deny it. He accepted it readily and fervently, just like many other people who witnessed Rand's fight in the sky.

 

As for his seemingly random mob of followers, remember that in the time between falme and him setting himself as a prophet news of Falme was already spreading, and with it dragonsworn would pop up. When Masema set himself up as prophet, he took in these people that were already there, and some of them may have witnessed the vision in the sky, and may be as insane as him for seeing the DO being defeated in the sky. Others are just bandits who need an excuse.

 

He's able to set himself up as a leader of these people because he's probably led battle, and he was actually with Rand.

 

As for Aram, remember that when he took up the sword he gave up the way of the leaf. He had no more family, or a place to belong. The vacuum that he had was filled with sword training, Faile, and Perrin. Elyas mentioned something to Perrin about Aram, it said something like this.

 

Anyways, when Faile gets kidnapped, Perrin pushes everyone away from himself including Aram. Aram doesn't have Perrin or Faile to fill his vacuum anymore, and his sword isn't a person. So he ends up hanging with Masema, who is able to talk Aram into thinking Perrin is a darkfriend. Aram isn't mentally stable, so he gives in to Masema.

[KaptainKaos]

Wow, at the very least Crazy Mike in almost every post I have seen, all of the posts in this topic included has given us all the opportunity to witness firsthand how a person who is clinically insane interprets this series. I honestly am not trying to be mean but come on there is only so much room for theories in this series. Robert Jordan seems to be a very accepting and understanding person but I have seen some of his responses to questions like this and all I'm going to say is his response to this question definitely wouldn't be Read and Find Out, it would probably be Read again but if you haven't already found out then you probably never will.

 

About the Aram thing, Aram was a Tuatha'an who turned away from the Way of the Leaf and wasn't whole-heartedly following it beforehand. So if he can just throw away one belief system because it didn't suit him why wouldn't he throw away his next one which is following Perrin. Who knows what a person who is only out for their own interests will do?

 

Just to justify my response with facts I'll give a quick explaination (those of you who have read and understand the series and already know that Masema has not ever or ever will channel don't have to read the rest). Masema was a soldier in Shienar and one presumably with merit since he was deemed able to accompany Ingtar on the hunt for the horn. In the Borderlands where everyone is a soldier Masema must have had experience fighting and was much older than Rand making him to be at the least around 30 years old. Men who can channel are identified much faster in the Borderlands than anywhere because of the large number of Aes Sedai and the fact that almost everyone is looking for any hint of the Shadow because their lives depend on their wits. Knowing this and the literally hundreds of other insignificant facts like the taint on saidin would have manifested in Masema years ago especially if he was using Compulsion as much as he would have to in this 'theory' really throws out this 'theory' in the first place. I'm just going to stop now because I went on too long disproving a theory that doesn't even deserve it and because if I keep going I might get myself in trouble.

[circumventor]

crazymike needs to admit he's wrong. Masema is just a darkfriend, that is all. Before you can even look at how he could turn Aram like that, you need to prove that he can channel. Which you haven't, because he can't. Nowhere in the books is it mentioned that the ability to channel can lay dormant and be brought into play by being touched by the power. It is stated that the ability manifests itself around 15-18 years old. Masema is at least 30.

[Whitestar]

I agree. There is no way that Masema could possibly be a wilder. He's just a very charasmatic individual (though I personally don't see his appeal).

 

As for Aram. He was in an extremely fragile mental and emotional state. He lost all his friends and family and only had Perrin and Faile. Plus, I had the impression that Aram was kinda in love with Faile. If that was the case, then it wouldn't take Masema much to convice Aram that Perrin needed to be killed for Faile's sake. "He's a wolf. He's dangerous. He'll get her killed." etc etc etc.

[CrazyMike]

First , I have been away for a few days; now to the question at hand.

 

ARAM could have easily been a Dark Friend; the fact that his family and friends were slaughtered by Trollics ect. works well with the METHOD of OPERATION used by the Evil One,,, As a Rule Newly Converted Dark Friends usually assist in the Murders of their family's and friends even feeding their own Children and Sisters to Trolics and watching while they are eaten,,, example:

(1) JAICHIM CARRIDIN The Dark Friend head of the Questioners in the Children of Light, helped Trollics kill his sisters; check it out in TPoD and ACoS, I forget where exactly he remembers the death of his sisters;;;

(2) Kari al'Thor ,,, Rand al'Thors Mother was a Darkfriend,,, she was ordered to kill him and she refused and for that reason the Evil One had her killed, but he kept her soul until Rand freed her by severing the Connection between her soul and the Evil One (The Eye of the World, chapter 51 near the end of the Chapter) She confessed her dabbling with evil in her weakness and being caught by it.

 

: there are other places in the series where it is remarked upon about the price Dark Friends pay to gain favor with the Evil One ...

 

Finally ,,,

MASEMA is not Charismatic ,,, please look up the meaning of the word before you fling it around ,,, Masema is Ugly, mean tempered, totaly lacking in social skills and in terrible need of a bath ...

 

Man, I think some people need to read the series before they post here,,, and I mean realy read it not skim thru it.

[Luckers]

Actually Carriden's sister were killed as a punishment for his ongoing failures, and he felt bad about it. The second is purerly absurd.

 

Masema is charismatic. The fervour of his delivery supplies that. it is not the sort of charmisma that'll turn you on, but it is the sort that will result in religious fervour and fanatic devotion.

 

Speaking of people who need to read the series... who is this Evil One? What are 'trolics'?

[CrazyMike]

Yeah , Dark One, Evil One, I always think of the DARK ONE as being the personafication of Evil in the series, and apparently everyone knows what I mean, so nitpicking over words is realy a lame way to try and argue any point, and Trollics or Trolics is the same , I don't intend to apologize for mispelled words and again Nitpicking over the difference is lame since it doesn't address the point at all and merely demonstrates the mental weakness of the person trying to make the trivial an important issue

[Luckers]

It's Trollocs, buddy. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of your suggestion that people re-read the series when you yourself make so many mistakes.

[CrazyMike]

It's still lame , buddy

[Luckers]

Me mocking you is lame? Oh well, i still enjoy it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Remarkable.

 

 

Those arguments are just as silly in this thread as they are in the other one.

[Whitestar]

Sigh...

 

Kari al'Thor wasn't a darkfriend. Well at least as I interpret it. She was dead and as Lord of the Grave the Dark One was able to gain control of her Soul. That is why she had no choice but to obey him.

 

Second, we have yet to see a case where Trollocs cared whether a person was a darkfriend or not when killing. They just like to kill. And except for those few who have received the Dark One's permission, none have been able to control them. The few exceptions are the Forsaken and I would suppose the Dreadlords from the Trolloc Wars. There could be more but I don't think much more.

 

Even Fain who was about as much of a darkfriend as you could get before his transformation in Shardar Logoth couldn't command the Trollocs. Hell they wanted to eat him, but didn't because of the Fade.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

ARAM could have easily been a Dark Friend; the fact that his family and friends were slaughtered by Trollics ect. works well with the METHOD of OPERATION used by the Evil One' date=',, As a Rule Newly Converted Dark Friends usually assist in the Murders of their family's and friends even feeding their own Children and Sisters to Trolics and watching while they are eaten,,, example:

(1) JAICHIM CARRIDIN The Dark Friend head of the Questioners in the Children of Light, helped Trollics kill his sisters; check it out in TPoD and ACoS, I forget where exactly he remembers the death of his sisters;;;

(2) Kari al'Thor ,,, Rand al'Thors Mother was a Darkfriend,,, she was ordered to kill him and she refused and for that reason the Evil One had her killed, but he kept her soul until Rand freed her by severing the Connection between her soul and the Evil One (The Eye of the World, chapter 51 near the end of the Chapter) She confessed her dabbling with evil in her weakness and being caught by it.

[/b']

Where did the idea that feeding your relatives to the Trollocs is some sort of initiation ceremony come from? The only reason Carridin was relieved was because it wasn't him fed to the trollocs for his mistakes, and I don't remember Kari anywhere being asked to feed Rand to trollocs - killing him maybe, but I don't see how that relates to Aram. Everything in the books has shown Aram to be a fanatical follower of the light, and as far away from darkfriend as is possible.

 

Charismatic does not mean that you are some sort of shining angel whom people adore and follow; some of the worst monsters in humanity's history have been very charismatic. Charismatic, as it is here, is someone with "the ability to influence without the use of logic". If that isn't a perfect description of Masema, I don't know what is.

 

Finally, you accusing Luckers of not having read the serious is beyond ridiculous. And what happened to the original point of this thread, that Masema is a wilder?

 

PDNFTT

[KaptainKaos]

I am really rolling on the floor and laughing... mostly because Robert's one word response is hilarious but also because of the interplay between Crazy Mike's 'revelation' and Luckers response to that (I am truly disturbed by Crazy Mike's fanatical personality, it's so ironic because he is actually a lot like a Whitecloak from the books, ha). I am really starting to enjoy these topics from Crazy Mike even though in the beginning I didn't believe that the topic statements deserved a response and I wish I could get a moderator to rename them "Wheel of Time books and how the clinically insane interpret them" but I know they won't. I'm not even sure how to respond any further but I will try without too many more burns.

 

First of Mr. Mike you have to remember that the information about Rand's mother was given to Rand not necessarily by his mother but by Ishamael who is one of the top followers of your 'Evil One' and if you haven't figured it out yet you can't take everything in this series at face value especially when it comes from this 'Evil One' or his followers because they're evil really super :twisted: evil.

 

The other thing that needs to be remembered is that Jaichim Carridin definitely does not want these family members that are dying to be dying and he is not helping to kill them unless you think he is failing on purpose so that the Fade will kill his family which is definitely another topic that should be put up on the Wheel of Time for the Clinicly Insane thread.

 

My point is this obviously some things have been a little over your (meaning Crazy Mike's) head in this or maybe you are just acting a little to high and mighty to come down here with us and see what is actually happening in the books. In either case all that you need to do is ask, just stop trying to fill in the gaps of your knowledge with what you think is the case because obviously you can't rely on your own line of thought really it's more like a lets see if anyone else besides the clinically insane can connect the dots than a line but you understand (probably not but I am just tired of wasting my time on this topic and a little regretful that I didn't just do a one word response and be funny like Robert.)

[Luckers]

Did you just pull a crazy mike and copy between threads?

[Guest cwestervelt]

And I thought only Crazy Ivan's were allowed to be pulled....

[Luckers]

Mmm. Firefly.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Don't see the connection betwen Firefly and Crazy Ivan's. I was thinking "Hunt for Red October" there.

 

Or was your post unrelated to mine.

[Luckers]

Wash pulls a Crazy Ivan in the pilot episode of Firefly.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Submariners. Space jockeys. They're all crazy. Like Mike! And this thread.

 

(I had to mention the thread topic, I think Maj is onto me.)

[Luckers]

Maj is onto us all. *Sigh* i hear the ominous sounds of the iminate fall of the Banhammer.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Wash pulls a Crazy Ivan in the pilot episode of Firefly.

 

I honestly can't remember if I saw the pilot episode so maybe that must be it. The series was pretty much canned before I ever realized it when it was on. Managed to catch a few episodes and the movie, but not all of them.

[KaptainKaos]

So, any word from Crazy Mike to find out if Masema really is a wilder yet??? I am eagerly anticipating the final word from our famous philosopher.

[Luckers]

cwestervelt, it'd be worth digging up the series... its a brillian show. My love for RJ and Joss Whedon is pretty equal.

 

No, Kaos. But then, do we really need any more then his opinion? i say we set it as law.