Discuss Egwene

[soullessktty]

I am not sure if it's been mentioned. Some people said that Egwene has been trying to obtaining power for power sake, or even being powermonger. I'd like to point out that when Egwene learned about the power from Moriane the first time, she complained that why men/saidin has the most powerful of five element: fire and earth. Then, after She and Elayne met Rand in Tear (in TSR) to give Rand on a platter to Elayne like a parcel and being "manhandled" by Rand like kittens, she complained that it wasn't fair that Rand was so powerful and she couldn't even see what he was doing. These seems to be the early indication in the books that Egwene may have had some sort of inferior complex issue, and attempt to compensate that by getting as much power as she could. Just a thought.

[Elan Tedronai]

I must say that although I've seen worse in some other threads, the Egwene bashing here is reaching acidic levels. Thank god no one has as of yet accusing Egwene to be more evil as compared to Lanfear or Graendal. I've seen people do THAT.

 

 

Too late. It's a public crime to go against the wishes of the Lord Dragon in these parts.

[randsc]

Elan, grow up. People have listed literally dozens of reasons for their dislike of Egwene that have nothing to do with Rand. The most common reason actually seems to be her treatment of Nynaeve.

 

Just because Egwene doesn't make everyone feel all funny in their tummy doesn't mean we're all Rand fans.

[tvssarma]

What I don't get is how come the Aes Sedai are held in such high regard in the Borderlands. They've basically abandoned those guys to fight with the Trollocs alone, completely disregarding their supposed their main mission to fight the Shadow, and instead sit at Tar Valon and play politics. They should be hated there. In TEOTW there was a huge Trolloc invasion in Shienar, which had been gathering strength for months, yet Moiraine was the only Aes Sedai there to help the defenders, and that was by accident.

 

I agree completely.

 

Why are there not Greens attached to every Borderland army? Why are there not Yellows available to heal the wounded. Why are there not Reds around to deal with potential Dreadlords?

 

For that matter, why is there not a hospital in each of the world's major cities, staffed with a couple of Yellows? That Elayne is taking care of this is the greatest point in her favor. But why had it occured to no one before?

 

The Browns do important work...important work that could be done as well by people without the innate ability to heal the sick. Whites...well, I don' want to get into a debate with every liberal arts major on the board about how useful their work is. But useful or not, it could be done by non-channelers. The meddling of the Blues is behind much of the dislike of the Tower in Randland. So that was something Elaida got right.

Blues meddling? Hmm.Caddy, a great meddler is not blue, Annoura advising berelain is not a blue, Elaida in Andor is not blue, apart from Moiraine and may be suin (or is it siun), we haven't seen much of blue ajah meddling

[tvssarma]

There certainly is much more partisanship for Rand as opposed to his childhood sweetheart! ROFLMAO!!! And the next time you are put out in RL over something a 19-year-old does, or says, try to remember that at 19 a person is not yet mature and far more apt to make all kinds of mistakes than a mature person. That is normal. Yet in real life and in fantasy which reflects many aspects of real life, often war pushes youth into positions for which they will not be as competent as they would with years of "seasoning." Elayne has had great teachers and a lot of seasoning for her age, but that was counted in months and she is still 19.

 

I foretell some of you may be in for surprises when the stuff hits the fan in the Last Battle.

Almost all the main characters are about the same age. So being 19 is not a license for Eggy to be awful

[Wamphryi]

This is my first ever post. The debate around Egwene and her so called faults appears to be missing one vital point. Before I touch on that point lets look at Egwene's basic background. She trained in the White Tower (Very Hard) Collared as Damane (True Horror) Trained with the Wise Ones (Very Hard) Was Leader of the Rebel AS while been caught in the toils of a Black Ajah plot (Fraught) Was tortured for days in the White Tower (Very Hard) Fought a battle with the Seanchan (With all that meant) and oversaw the execution of many AS many whom she knew and some she knew very well. What did all this lead up too? The death of the mind of Messana in the World of Dreams. The end of this Forsaken was bought about by the sheer will of Egwene. She was able to free herself of the adam and turn Messana into a vegetable. This kind of thing is not achieved by a will who possesses the traits Egwene detractors accuse her of not having. You cannot have a will like that when you are plagued by doubt or the need of the good opinions of others or even the need for others. Anyone with that much strength of purpose cannot afford the luxury of anything short of total control of their own mind and will. Sadly that does not leave much room for much else. To top it all off she is now leading thousands of people potentially to their deaths. Egwene is a good character who has been written exactly how she needed to be written. Its just that she is not understood very well. She reminds me of Queen Elizabeth the First. Elizabeth was betrayed by a lover and so put a wall up around herself and was extremely harsh in some respects. Yet her reign is referred to as the "Golden Years" in the history books and for good reason.

[randsc]

You don't think that, just perhaps, it is a little insulting to people who dislike Egwene to assume that we are incapable of insights like yours? Which can be found, by the way, several times in the course of this very thread?

 

The negative traits of character most commonly attributed to Egwene are arrogance, lack of self-reflection, hypocrisy and overweening personal ambition. None of these are incompatable with a strong will. Quite the contrary, in fact.

[capuga]

You know, I have seen people post that the Egwene name calling and hatred gets to be juvenile and over the top. And that is sometimes true. However, at least the name calling is directed at the character and not at the people posting differing opinions of the character. I have found myself lately often and tiresomely having to defend not my perception of the character, but where in my personality those perceptions come from. Apparently to dislike Egwene you have to either be sexist, a Rand fanboy, or too dumb to understand the character. Not only is this very much not true (at least speaking for myself), it does nothing to actually address the often rational and reasonable reasons people have posted for their dislike of Egwene.

 

This is my first ever post. The debate around Egwene and her so called faults appears to be missing one vital point. Before I touch on that point lets look at Egwene's basic background. She trained in the White Tower (Very Hard) Collared as Damane (True Horror) Trained with the Wise Ones (Very Hard) Was Leader of the Rebel AS while been caught in the toils of a Black Ajah plot (Fraught) Was tortured for days in the White Tower (Very Hard) Fought a battle with the Seanchan (With all that meant) and oversaw the execution of many AS many whom she knew and some she knew very well. What did all this lead up too? The death of the mind of Messana in the World of Dreams. The end of this Forsaken was bought about by the sheer will of Egwene. She was able to free herself of the adam and turn Messana into a vegetable. This kind of thing is not achieved by a will who possesses the traits Egwene detractors accuse her of not having. You cannot have a will like that when you are plagued by doubt or the need of the good opinions of others or even the need for others. Anyone with that much strength of purpose cannot afford the luxury of anything short of total control of their own mind and will.

 

Now this is a reasonable post that points out how they perceive the character and why it differs with how other people perceive the character. It is a good argument that actually addresses the points that others have made.

 

Egwene is a good character who has been written exactly how she needed to be written. Its just that she is not understood very well.

 

This, on the other hand, is a borderline rude statement that implies those who disagree with your perception of the character must just be too dumb to understand her. This does nothing to address the actual reasons that people have stated for their dislike and attacks (although that is a little too harsh sounding, I can't think of a better word) the actual poster.

 

Different people like different things. There isn't something wrong with them just because they view the character differently than you. Its just a matter of perception.

 

All that being said, welcome to the boards @Wamphryi and hopefully we can have some fun discussions on Egwene and WoT.

[Wamphryi]

I do not hold the view that I have insight that others do not. I considered the points I made as adding weight to the similar opinions held by others on this thread. That is why I did not preface my comment with “no one” understands Egwene. My opinion is that Egwene is misunderstood on the basis of my belief that it is the reason why some people do not seem to take Egwene in the context of her experiences or the liabilities and limitations that she must work within to exercise her duties as her role requires. The view that my opinion is in fact casting doubt upon the intelligence of others is in my opinion invalid and unreasonable. Just because it is possible to put that interpretation on what I said does not make it the correct interpretation. I deny emphatically that my reasoning behind that statement was driven by an opinion that others lack my intelligence and or insight.

There seems to be commonly held belief that Egwene is arrogant. The definition of arrogance is “offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.” If we compare Egwene to another character that did behave in the manner depicted by the meaning of arrogance, Elaida then there is an observable yet subtle distinction. Elaida was all about herself as exhibited by her obsession with having her own palace that would dwarf the White Tower itself. Of course Elaida had been contaminated by Fain / Mordeth but the resulting behaviour fits the definition nicely.

Egwene on the other hand is all about the position she holds and how she expects others to react to her as holder of that position. Egwene is genuinely motivated to fulfil her leadership role rather than have homage paid to herself personally. To say that Egwene is motivated by pride defies logic as any individual who went through what she has as an Aiel apprentice and a sufferer of chronic beatings and deprivation at the hands of the Tower Aes Sedai would not have endured those experiences if they were motivated by pride. In fact most of what the Wise Ones inflicted on their apprentices was for the purpose of removing pride and replacing it with a sense of honour that encompassed the need to think for the wider good of all the Aiel. In short Egwene could not have endured if she was burdened by pride. As she is clearly not burdened so then it is not possible to call her arrogant as defined by the English dictionary.

As for her treatment of Nynaeve then one has to look at Egwene’s purpose. What she is actually saying to Nynaeve is that Nynaeve is of the Yellow Ajah, Aes Sedai, and necessarily subservient to the Amyrlin not Egwene herself. It is just as important that Nynaeve must believe that herself at a core level, so she exhibits the right attitude to the other Aes Sedai in a manner where they will believe it. Otherwise every time Nynaeve fails to do so she will inadvertently undermine Egwene’s authority. A leader who plays favourites or has a close follower who acts like she believes that she is a favourite will earn the ire of a diverse group of Aes Sedai, many of whom would oppose Egwene simply on the premise that they believe they know better. It would also provide an opening for the Black Ajah to sow discord and as we can see they are down but not out.

As for Rand and his plan in relation to the seals it is logical that Egwene will have her own views on the plan based on fears and prejudices that are still strongly exhibited by the Red Ajah and to a lesser degree the other Ajah’s. Lews Therin had a plan three thousand years ago that resulted in the breaking of the world, which even he admits was a flawed plan. It is natural and indeed common sense for people to have doubts about his plans as he has often proved himself fallible.

Egwene has to make decisions based on what she believes is best based on the information she has at the time. Her decisions affect thousands of people who look to her for leadership. That does not make her arrogant.