Rand and Lews Therin...

[Naffy]

The difference between Ishidin and Rand Therin is that Ishamel and Moridin share the same conciousness while Rand and LTT share the same soul.

 

And yet their consciousnesses merge in TGS, and this fixes Rand, rather than sending him completely over the brink

I wouldn't say their conciousnesses merged, I would say that Rand quit compartementalizing the memories he got from Lews into a different personality. Whereas Ishidin was like they took the same brain and put it in a different body.

[Erelvar]

so we are saying then that ishmael is really moridin made flesh again? i never really picked that up. especially if you are saying that cynadine is lanfear. think about it. if that were true then moridin would have to exhibit more signs of madness. He was all but completly insane when rand "killed" him back in ... Eye of the world? anyways. i still don't think that cyndanine is lanfear. especially when all the other forsaken are saying that she is weaker in the power than lanfear orginally was.

 

my thing with Rand and LTT, seeing as how they are always talking to one another, and LTT has said on more than one occasion that he has a crazy person in his head, thats what makes me think that Rand and LTT have been talking to each other for a while. Since LTT performed the breaking. When he was going crazy killing everyone during the breaking he said that he heard voices. we don't get the point of view of what those voices are saying, but since LTT memories and knowledge pass forward to Rand it only seems right that it would work the same way. though without having access to LTT voices anywhere in any of the books its kinda hard to say.

[jdbond]

Ishmael wasn't reincarnated. LTT was. Moridin is Ishmael but Rand is just Rand. Moridin was never born. peace.

[jdbond]

so we are saying then that ishmael is really moridin made flesh again? i never really picked that up. especially if you are saying that cynadine is lanfear. think about it. if that were true then moridin would have to exhibit more signs of madness. He was all but completly insane when rand "killed" him back in ... Eye of the world? anyways. i still don't think that cyndanine is lanfear. especially when all the other forsaken are saying that she is weaker in the power than lanfear orginally was.

 

my thing with Rand and LTT, seeing as how they are always talking to one another, and LTT has said on more than one occasion that he has a crazy person in his head, thats what makes me think that Rand and LTT have been talking to each other for a while. Since LTT performed the breaking. When he was going crazy killing everyone during the breaking he said that he heard voices. we don't get the point of view of what those voices are saying, but since LTT memories and knowledge pass forward to Rand it only seems right that it would work the same way. though without having access to LTT voices anywhere in any of the books its kinda hard to say.

 

 

Madness resides in mind, not soul if that makes any sense. Messana claimed that Cyndane wasn't Lanfear. We don't know why Lanfear died and Moiraine survived in Aelfinn world so anything related to Cyndane is pure speculation.

 

Are you saying rand time traveled to LTT's past? I am not sure where LTT said that he was hearing voices? But if he was, it was probably Ishmael whispering to him.

[Dream]

The difference between Ishidin and Rand Therin is that Ishamel and Moridin share the same conciousness while Rand and LTT share the same soul.

 

And yet their consciousnesses merge in TGS, and this fixes Rand, rather than sending him completely over the brink

I wouldn't say their conciousnesses merged, I would say that Rand quit compartementalizing the memories he got from Lews into a different personality. Whereas Ishidin was like they took the same brain and put it in a different body.

 

What did he do with the memories then? He accepted them as his. He's accepted LTT's memories as his. He's accepted LTT's actions as his. He's accepted LTT"s emotions as his. He's accepted that he is LTT. Why do we continue to hold that Rand isn't LTT?

 

Regarding Ishidin, that's exactly the point. The DO didn't take Ishamael's brain and put it in a different body. He caught Ishamael's soul and transmigrated it into a new host. Moridin has Ishamael's soul, memories and life experiences. Rand has LTT's soul, memories and life experiences. The difference between Rand and Moridin is that Rand also has his own memories and life experiences.

[jdbond]

The difference between Ishidin and Rand Therin is that Ishamel and Moridin share the same conciousness while Rand and LTT share the same soul.

 

And yet their consciousnesses merge in TGS, and this fixes Rand, rather than sending him completely over the brink

I wouldn't say their conciousnesses merged, I would say that Rand quit compartementalizing the memories he got from Lews into a different personality. Whereas Ishidin was like they took the same brain and put it in a different body.

 

What did he do with the memories then? He accepted them as his. He's accepted LTT's memories as his. He's accepted LTT's actions as his. He's accepted LTT"s emotions as his. He's accepted that he is LTT. Why do we continue to hold that Rand isn't LTT?

 

Regarding Ishidin, that's exactly the point. The DO didn't take Ishamael's brain and put it in a different body. He caught Ishamael's soul and transmigrated it into a new host. Moridin has Ishamael's soul, memories and life experiences. Rand has LTT's soul, memories and life experiences. The difference between Rand and Moridin is that Rand also has his own memories and life experiences.

 

The difference is that Rand was actually born. And that's a HUGE difference. There was no Moridin before Ishy's soul was put into a new meat suit. The biggest difference between Moridin and Rand is the way both handle one power. While Moridin handles the one power exactly the way Ishy did (strength and knowledge), Rand is still growing. He is neither at his full strength nor he knows as much as LTT knew (Rand picked many weaves from others in this age). Also if Rand had ALL the memories of LTT (even at the end of tGS), are you saying that new Rand knows exactly how LTT created the seals? I doubt it.

[Sharaman]

I don't agree that Rand and LTT were the same character. Given that they were different men with different memories and personalities, I fail to see how they could reasonably be considered the same. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that you and I are the same person? They are separate and distinct characters who share the same soul.

 

What you are getting at Ares isnt really accurate; yes, tehir personalities are affected by their own lifetimes but what I was saying is that Rand and Lews Therin are one person/character in exactly the same way that Ishamael and Moridin are. A soul is the non-physical version of the character, but it is still the same character regardless of the experience. It is the personality that changes with experiences, you dont suddenly become a different individual entirely if something changes your personality, however drastically. Unless, of course, you want to assume Rand isnt Lews Therin reborn. They are the same person, but with different lives and thus different personalities, but other than that Rand/Lews Therin, Lanfear/Cyndane, yada yada, the only thing that makes Rand different is that he was supposed to do be like this, the Forsaken got it from an unnatural source hence why they are different

 

Definitely not in the same way that Ishamael- Moridin are. Moridin is just a new alias and new body for Ishamael - there's no break in personality. Rand and LTT are two entirely different people with totally different life experiences.

 

No, Rand and Lews Therin are a single person but with different life experiences. If Rand and Lewis werent the same person then it couldnt be said that Rand was Lewis reborn. Lews Therin was the Dragon. Rand is also the Dragon, but reborn. The word Reborn is there with the single purpose of indicating which version of the same man it is

 

Actually no - reincarnation / rebirth in all the religious systems that incorporate it involves recognisably different people, (often different species in the Buddhist jataka) with the same soul. In Buddhist/ Hindu /Sikh doctrine a highly evolved individual (a "jatismara" (Sanskrit/ Pali - he who remembers the past )) who can recall his past lives is a very respected being.

One of the best known of jatismaras is the Dalai Lama who is the 14th incarnation of the same soul. The Dalai Lamas are chosen through tests that prove their knowledge of their past lives. The Great 14th has clearly stated several times in different contexts that his previous lives were different individuals, disassociating himself from both their peccadillos (many) and their accomplishments (ditto).

 

Your interpretation of "reborn" is highly individual and contrary to conventional theological definitions, including the definition used by the man who is generally acknowledged as the leading global expert on the theory of reincarnation.

Unless you provide a quote from RJ stating that he used the same highly individual definition, I would suggest you are plain wrong in your interpretation.

[Erelvar]

i remember reading in the first book i think that LTT was hearing voices, and that Ishy made LTT sane so that he could understand that torture that Ishy was getting ready to do to him. Thats when he said that he was hearing voices. I thought that since Rand and LTT are part of the same person and that Rand hears LTT now, maybe LTT heard Rand back in the third age.... or whichever age he was in.

[jdbond]

i remember reading in the first book i think that LTT was hearing voices, and that Ishy made LTT sane so that he could understand that torture that Ishy was getting ready to do to him. Thats when he said that he was hearing voices. I thought that since Rand and LTT are part of the same person and that Rand hears LTT now, maybe LTT heard Rand back in the third age.... or whichever age he was in.

 

 

They are not the same person. That will beat the whole idea of reincarnation. Remember in WOT, every living human is reincarnated. There are few who can remember (or hear) their past life (as Grandel claimed) but that's all it is. Rand could remember portion of his past life (and other previous lifes in VOG). But none of them are his memories since he never lived any of them.

[Dream]

The difference is that Rand was actually born. And that's a HUGE difference. There was no Moridin before Ishy's soul was put into a new meat suit. The biggest difference between Moridin and Rand is the way both handle one power. While Moridin handles the one power exactly the way Ishy did (strength and knowledge), Rand is still growing. He is neither at his full strength nor he knows as much as LTT knew (Rand picked many weaves from others in this age). Also if Rand had ALL the memories of LTT (even at the end of tGS), are you saying that new Rand knows exactly how LTT created the seals? I doubt it.

 

Yes, Rand was born and Moridin was not. Which is why Rand his own memories and life experiences in addition to LTT's, as I have mentioned. Aside from that, how else are they different? And yes, I do believe Rand knows exactly how LTT created the seals. The Last Battle is here. He can't fumble around any more.

[jdbond]

The difference is that Rand was actually born. And that's a HUGE difference. There was no Moridin before Ishy's soul was put into a new meat suit. The biggest difference between Moridin and Rand is the way both handle one power. While Moridin handles the one power exactly the way Ishy did (strength and knowledge), Rand is still growing. He is neither at his full strength nor he knows as much as LTT knew (Rand picked many weaves from others in this age). Also if Rand had ALL the memories of LTT (even at the end of tGS), are you saying that new Rand knows exactly how LTT created the seals? I doubt it.

 

Yes, Rand was born and Moridin was not. Which is why Rand his own memories and life experiences in addition to LTT's, as I have mentioned. Aside from that, how else are they different? And yes, I do believe Rand knows exactly how LTT created the seals. The Last Battle is here. He can't fumble around any more.

 

Rand also remembers his other past lifes while he was reminiscing on Dragonmount. Is he all that too? How can one man be two people? Is somehow you plant your memories into my mind, do we become the one? Remember total recall! Afterall, Mat recalls memories of so many past Generals and what not but he was none of them!

[Kelven]

I've always thought LLT's voice was Rand "remembering" LLT's life similar to how Brigitte remembers HER past lives.

 

Allow me to explain... Brigitte was a different person each of those lives, with different personalities (implied when she stated her and Gaidal Cain didn't always start off loving each other. Some lives they hated each other,etc), with different experiences and such, yet because she was ripped out of TAR, she remembers them all.

Does this make all those lives she lived previously seperate people? Technically, they're the same soul. She WAS those people in those lives. That doesn't nessecarily mean she IS them still. She is the soul reborn of all those past lives.

 

So is Rand LLT? It's the same soul, but Rand is Rand. LLT is dead, he died thousands of years ago, his soul went back into the pattern and was reborn as Rand. Therefore, they are the same soul, but not the same person.

For whatever reason, Rand started to remember one of his past lives, similar to Brigitte remembering hers. I believe the LLT "voice" was created by Rand's subconcious (and partially due to the taint) as a defense mechanisim to deal with these memories. I've recently been doing my latest re-read in preperation for the next book, and I've taken the viewpoint that LLT was just Rand seperating his normal self from his "taint-crazy" and these memories.

 

Anywho, that's how I view the whole Rand/LLT subject. The voice Rand heard was just his way of dealing with these memories he was starting to remember. It wasn't actually a seperate person talking in his head, just as Brigitte's memories aren't other women in her head giving her info.

[Dream]

Rand also remembers his other past lifes while he was reminiscing on Dragonmount. Is he all that too? How can one man be two people? Is somehow you plant your memories into my mind, do we become the one? Remember total recall! Afterall, Mat recalls memories of so many past Generals and what not but he was none of them!

 

So what? It's not like we haven't seen it before. Remember Birgitte?

 

 

Edit to include above post.

 

Allow me to explain... Brigitte was a different person each of those lives, with different personalities (implied when she stated her and Gaidal Cain didn't always start off loving each other. Some lives they hated each other,etc), with different experiences and such, yet because she was ripped out of TAR, she remembers them all.

Does this make all those lives she lived previously seperate people? Technically, they're the same soul. She WAS those people in those lives. That doesn't nessecarily mean she IS them still. She is the soul reborn of all those past lives.

 

How about the personality of Birgitte while she was waiting in TAR? Was she a bunch of different pensonalities who each had their own turn, or was she some amalgam of the them all and a single person? She maintained the same personality after she got ripped out.

[jdbond]

^^Rand believed it was LTT talking to him. When he came to accept that LTT and he shared the same soul, LTT ceased to exist in his mind. Rand was also able to recall his other lifes.

[jdbond]

Rand also remembers his other past lifes while he was reminiscing on Dragonmount. Is he all that too? How can one man be two people? Is somehow you plant your memories into my mind, do we become the one? Remember total recall! Afterall, Mat recalls memories of so many past Generals and what not but he was none of them!

 

So what? It's not like we haven't seen it before. Remember Birgitte?

 

 

Birgitte just like Ishy was a "mistake". They both technically cheated the pattern. But unlike Ishy, Birgitte is forgetting everything from her past lifes (pattern fixing the accident). That says a lot in IMHO.

 

Mat is a genuine case where completely foreign memories were planted into his head. Birgitte is not Mat or Rand.

[Dream]

Rand also remembers his other past lifes while he was reminiscing on Dragonmount. Is he all that too? How can one man be two people? Is somehow you plant your memories into my mind, do we become the one? Remember total recall! Afterall, Mat recalls memories of so many past Generals and what not but he was none of them!

 

So what? It's not like we haven't seen it before. Remember Birgitte?

 

 

Birgitte just like Ishy was a "mistake". They both technically cheated the pattern. But unlike Ishy, Birgitte is forgetting everything from her past lifes (pattern fixing the accident). That says a lot in IMHO.

 

Mat is a genuine case where completely foreign memories were planted into his head. Birgitte is not Mat or Rand.

 

Yes, Birgitte was a mistake. But it also shows that it is possible to remember all you past lives. It's not like she lost her memories or her head exploded when she got yanked out. If Birgitte can survive having all her memories intact, Rand can survive having all his memories intact. And if the Wheel wants Rand to have all his memories, then Rand will have all his memories.

 

I don't see why what the Eelfinn did to Mat would be any more natural than any of the others. Mat is not Birgitte, Rand or Moridin. So what's the point?

[jdbond]

Rand also remembers his other past lifes while he was reminiscing on Dragonmount. Is he all that too? How can one man be two people? Is somehow you plant your memories into my mind, do we become the one? Remember total recall! Afterall, Mat recalls memories of so many past Generals and what not but he was none of them!

 

So what? It's not like we haven't seen it before. Remember Birgitte?

 

 

Birgitte just like Ishy was a "mistake". They both technically cheated the pattern. But unlike Ishy, Birgitte is forgetting everything from her past lifes (pattern fixing the accident). That says a lot in IMHO.

 

Mat is a genuine case where completely foreign memories were planted into his head. Birgitte is not Mat or Rand.

 

Yes, Birgitte was a mistake. But it also shows that it is possible to remember all you past lives. It's not like she lost her memories or her head exploded when she got yanked out. If Birgitte can survive having all her memories intact, Rand can survive having all his memories intact. And if the Wheel wants Rand to have all his memories, then Rand will have all his memories.

 

I don't see why what the Eelfinn did to Mat would be any more natural than any of the others. Mat is not Birgitte, Rand or Moridin. So what's the point?

 

How do I know? You mentioned Birgitte! What I am saying is just because you have memories of some other person in your mind doesn't mean you are him!

[OptimusPrime]

Rand also remembers his other past lifes while he was reminiscing on Dragonmount. Is he all that too? How can one man be two people? Is somehow you plant your memories into my mind, do we become the one? Remember total recall! Afterall, Mat recalls memories of so many past Generals and what not but he was none of them!

 

So what? It's not like we haven't seen it before. Remember Birgitte?

 

 

Birgitte just like Ishy was a "mistake". They both technically cheated the pattern. But unlike Ishy, Birgitte is forgetting everything from her past lifes (pattern fixing the accident). That says a lot in IMHO.

 

Mat is a genuine case where completely foreign memories were planted into his head. Birgitte is not Mat or Rand.

 

Yes, Birgitte was a mistake. But it also shows that it is possible to remember all you past lives. It's not like she lost her memories or her head exploded when she got yanked out. If Birgitte can survive having all her memories intact, Rand can survive having all his memories intact. And if the Wheel wants Rand to have all his memories, then Rand will have all his memories.

 

I don't see why what the Eelfinn did to Mat would be any more natural than any of the others. Mat is not Birgitte, Rand or Moridin. So what's the point?

 

How do I know? You mentioned Birgitte! What I am saying is just because you have memories of some other person in your mind doesn't mean you are him!

 

No you are right, it doesnt mean that just because they are there that theyre the same person. But if the memories are from a past life, then clearly it is earlier versions of yourself, which is why they are YOUR past lives. Rand having the memories of another man would be a mistake. But he doesnt have memories from another man though. Birgitte didnt have memories from another woman either. They were supposed to have those memories to remind them of what they are, but they are only supposed to have them either in T'A'R between lives, or when they are taken to the living world for a purpose that the Wheel intended. Birgitte and the mistake, her leaving T'A'R unnaturally, caused her to lose those memories gradually. Ishamael being reinserted into the Pattern, as already said, was another mistake, because he was reinserted in someones body but retaining his own mind, together with its memories and its thread. This isnt a portrayal of the natural rebirth system, it is a portrayal of the Dark Ones counterpart to rebirth and also a representation of his "smash the system" motive. Yet, as already said, Moridin seems saner than he was as Ishamael and in a sense makes it feel less of a mistake. But also remember that Ishamael Healed Lews Therin of madness with the True Power, and the Dark One could also protect someone from the Taint, so it would stand to reason that the Dark One would filter out what madness he could before reinserting him, and he would be able to remove pretty much all of that madness because it was caused by Ishamaels addiction of the True Power itself.

[Erelvar]

heres a thought, what if because Rand went into Tel thats the reason why he was able to get LTT memories? The wise ones are always talking about not going fully into TEL. Maybe thats the reason? Rand not only went there alot but he fought two forsaken there. maybe all that channeling of the one power maybe allowed a bridge to rands mind to put LTT in there. what do you think?

[Dream]

Birgitte just like Ishy was a "mistake". They both technically cheated the pattern. But unlike Ishy, Birgitte is forgetting everything from her past lifes (pattern fixing the accident). That says a lot in IMHO.

 

Mat is a genuine case where completely foreign memories were planted into his head. Birgitte is not Mat or Rand.

 

Yes, Birgitte was a mistake. But it also shows that it is possible to remember all you past lives. It's not like she lost her memories or her head exploded when she got yanked out. If Birgitte can survive having all her memories intact, Rand can survive having all his memories intact. And if the Wheel wants Rand to have all his memories, then Rand will have all his memories.

 

I don't see why what the Eelfinn did to Mat would be any more natural than any of the others. Mat is not Birgitte, Rand or Moridin. So what's the point?

 

How do I know? You mentioned Birgitte! What I am saying is just because you have memories of some other person in your mind doesn't mean you are him!

 

I brought up Birgitte as an example mainly to demonstrate that it is possible to have a singular personality that incorporates all of one's past lives. Which is the situation I believe Rand is in now.

 

But the difference between Mat and the others is that Mat only has partial memories of other souls' lives while Rand, Birgitte and Moridin have both the souls and the souls' full memories. In Rand and Birgitte's case, they have/had the memories of all their past lives.

 

Looking at Moridin specifically, the body was occupied by a different person. A different soul with different memories. Whoever Moridin used to be is now completely gone from the body, a clean slate, and Ishamael's soul and memories have been inserted in place. Mat's case is completely different because he has his soul and the memories of other souls. Sure, he can remember what they did, but they aren't him. Looking at Rand and Birgitte, they are more similar to Moridin than Mat in that they remember what their souls did. What they did.

 

So just because you have memories of some other person in your mind doesn't mean you are him. But if those memories are your own, then well yeah, you are him.

[Mr Ares]

I don't agree that Rand and LTT were the same character. Given that they were different men with different memories and personalities, I fail to see how they could reasonably be considered the same. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that you and I are the same person? They are separate and distinct characters who share the same soul.

 

What you are getting at Ares isnt really accurate; yes, tehir personalities are affected by their own lifetimes but what I was saying is that Rand and Lews Therin are one person/character in exactly the same way that Ishamael and Moridin are. A soul is the non-physical version of the character, but it is still the same character regardless of the experience. It is the personality that changes with experiences, you dont suddenly become a different individual entirely if something changes your personality, however drastically. Unless, of course, you want to assume Rand isnt Lews Therin reborn. They are the same person, but with different lives and thus different personalities, but other than that Rand/Lews Therin, Lanfear/Cyndane, yada yada, the only thing that makes Rand different is that he was supposed to do be like this, the Forsaken got it from an unnatural source hence why they are different

Ishamael and the other transmigrated Chosen all retain the memories of their previous existence. It is essentially a continuation, whereas Rand/LTT is a fresh start. And if dying, being born again milennia later as a different person, with different memories, different personality, different everything, is not enough to qualify you as a different person, I don't know what is. So what I am getting at is entirely accurate, and Ishy/Moridin is a different case.

 

No, Rand and Lews Therin are a single person but with different life experiences. If Rand and Lewis werent the same person then it couldnt be said that Rand was Lewis reborn. Lews Therin was the Dragon. Rand is also the Dragon, but reborn. The word Reborn is there with the single purpose of indicating which version of the same man it is

I would say that is stretching the definition of single person an awful lot. What is the same is the soul, but that's it. I don't think that's enough to call them the same. Imagine if you could identify who someone was in a previous life, and you identified someone as a criminal. Would you then consider it fair to put them on trial for the actions of their past life, before their rebirth? If LTT had murdered someone, before he went insane, would it be fair to put Rand on trial for that murder? Given that he is the same man, therefore the crime and the guilt should be his as well, surely?

 

Ahem..it's the rebirth of soul, not the person. Since they don't have name for soul, Rand is called Dragon Reborn.

 

Ahem. Then Moridin is not Ishamael because it is a reincarnation of the soul, not the person.

Except that overlooks the simle fact that, however badly it might have been worded, there is a clear difference between the cases of LTT/Rand and Ishamael/Moridin. Specifically, in the latter case Moridin retains all the memories of being Ishamael, he began life as an adult, he didn't need to start channeling again of work his way back up to his former strength. He is a continuation. Rand is a fresh start, after the Wheel hit the reset button on his life.

 

We have just had twelve books of Rand making those exact same references. I mean, of all the people in the books, whose PoV would you say Rands resembles the most?

I would say Rand's POV most resembles Rand's. There really isn't another good example of what he's going through.

 

Lanfear: (to Rand) Lews Therin I will kill you! *is held by the Finns* *dies*

Cyndane: (About Rand) I still hate Lews Therin! *turns* Oh my Creator look at that woman, shes stronger than I was before the Finns held me!

Lews Therin: *Fights Forsaken* *kills Ilyena, creates Dragonmount* *dies*

Rand: *remembers Forsaken* *remembers Ilyena* *remembers creating Dragonmount* *leaves Ilyenas name on the list of women HE killed because it feels right*

Us: Cyndane is Lanfear. Rand is completely nuts.

 

The only thing about the Lews Therin side of Rand is the voice. The memories of past lives are natural to Rand, they just didnt start coming through until after he became Ta'veren, after his Champion qualities became active.

The memories being natural to Rand is itself an arguable assertion, backed up as it is with absolutely no evidence in the books. We have nothing to indicate that reincarnated souls, Heroes, or the Dragon should have memories of previous lives. And Cyndane remembers being Lanfear, but not being anyone else. Rand was a shepherd who suddenly remembers the Chosen.

 

The difference is that Rand was actually born. And that's a HUGE difference. There was no Moridin before Ishy's soul was put into a new meat suit. The biggest difference between Moridin and Rand is the way both handle one power. While Moridin handles the one power exactly the way Ishy did (strength and knowledge), Rand is still growing. He is neither at his full strength nor he knows as much as LTT knew (Rand picked many weaves from others in this age). Also if Rand had ALL the memories of LTT (even at the end of tGS), are you saying that new Rand knows exactly how LTT created the seals? I doubt it.

Yes, Rand was born and Moridin was not. Which is why Rand his own memories and life experiences in addition to LTT's, as I have mentioned. Aside from that, how else are they different?

Isn't that enough? Having your memories alone and your memories plus those of another man are quite different things. And another incarnation of your soul is not you, it is another person with whom you share a common soul.

[didymos]

Specifically, in the latter case Moridin retains all the memories of being Ishamael, he began life as an adult, he didn't need to start channeling again of work his way back up to his former strength. He is a continuation. Rand is a fresh start, after the Wheel hit the reset button on his life.

 

Yep. This is exactly what's going on, and RJ himself confirmed it at a Q&A session (the linked transcript is a bit off. I've made some minor corrections. Also, the odd phrasing of the question is due to this Q&A having taken place in Budapest, with the questioner not being a native speaker of English. Also, bolding mine):

 

Q: I have an exciting question, maybe: we were talking about making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the recycled Forsaken? So, uh...

 

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally with the turning of the Wheel, uh, no.

 

Q: Well then...the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is as if he has...it is a shift of an entire person.

 

It is clear from the above that, as RJ used the term, "person" refers to one's current incarnation with all its attendant memories, skills, and personality. A different incarnation is a different person with the same soul. They are indeed not the same, though they obviously (at least, that's how I see it) do have a number of individual traits in common.

[Dream]

The difference is that Rand was actually born. And that's a HUGE difference. There was no Moridin before Ishy's soul was put into a new meat suit. The biggest difference between Moridin and Rand is the way both handle one power. While Moridin handles the one power exactly the way Ishy did (strength and knowledge), Rand is still growing. He is neither at his full strength nor he knows as much as LTT knew (Rand picked many weaves from others in this age). Also if Rand had ALL the memories of LTT (even at the end of tGS), are you saying that new Rand knows exactly how LTT created the seals? I doubt it.

Yes, Rand was born and Moridin was not. Which is why Rand his own memories and life experiences in addition to LTT's, as I have mentioned. Aside from that, how else are they different?

Isn't that enough? Having your memories alone and your memories plus those of another man are quite different things.

I was trying to point out the similarities between Moridin and Rand, not that what happened is exactly the same.

 

To clarify:

 

Mr. X has his soul and memories removed. Ishamael's soul and memories are inserted into Mr. X. Mr. X is now Ishamael, who calls himself Moridin.

 

Rand does not have his soul and memories removed. Rand already has LTT's soul and now also LTT's memories. Rand is now Rand + LTT.

 

That's all I was trying to say (in that post).

 

And another incarnation of your soul is not you, it is another person with whom you share a common soul.

Well, IRL I tend to agree with you. If reincarnation did exist, I couldn't care less about my past lives or what they did or thought. "They" are not "me".

 

But in the WoT, the problem Rand has been having is he has been gaining LTT's memories and he has been refusing them as his own. We see this throughout the books and he's sort of right. They aren't this incarnation's memories. Nevertheless, they are his soul's memories and it's not just static memories. It's the emotions, the guilt and desires. In Veins of Gold, Rand finally accepts the memories and emotions as his. He accepts that he and LTT are the same person. That's his epiphany.

[Dream]

Specifically, in the latter case Moridin retains all the memories of being Ishamael, he began life as an adult, he didn't need to start channeling again of work his way back up to his former strength. He is a continuation. Rand is a fresh start, after the Wheel hit the reset button on his life.

 

Yep. This is exactly what's going on, and RJ himself confirmed it at a Q&A session (the linked transcript is a bit off. I've made some minor corrections. Also, the odd phrasing of the question is due to this Q&A having taken place in Budapest, with the questioner not being a native speaker of English. Also, bolding mine):

 

Q: I have an exciting question, maybe: we were talking about making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the recycled Forsaken? So, uh...

 

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally with the turning of the Wheel, uh, no.

 

Q: Well then...the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is as if he has...it is a shift of an entire person.

 

It is clear from the above that, as RJ used the term, "person" refers to one's current incarnation with all its attendant memories, skills, and personality. A different incarnation is a different person with the same soul. They are indeed not the same, though they obviously (at least, that's how I see it) do have a number of individual traits in common.

I'm not disputing that Moridin is Ishamael or Cyndane is Lanfear, which is all that Q&A suggests.

 

Let's go back to Birgitte, freshly ripped from TAR. Is she a person? If not then what is she? If she died and the DO transmigrated her into a new body, would she be the same person who died, or would she be some new person who only has memories and personalities developed since being ripped out?

 

To me a person is a person, no matter how many incarnations they have inside of them.

[OptimusPrime]

Specifically, in the latter case Moridin retains all the memories of being Ishamael, he began life as an adult, he didn't need to start channeling again of work his way back up to his former strength. He is a continuation. Rand is a fresh start, after the Wheel hit the reset button on his life.

 

Yep. This is exactly what's going on, and RJ himself confirmed it at a Q&A session (the linked transcript is a bit off. I've made some minor corrections. Also, the odd phrasing of the question is due to this Q&A having taken place in Budapest, with the questioner not being a native speaker of English. Also, bolding mine):

 

Q: I have an exciting question, maybe: we were talking about making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the recycled Forsaken? So, uh...

 

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally with the turning of the Wheel, uh, no.

 

Q: Well then...the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is as if he has...it is a shift of an entire person.

 

It is clear from the above that, as RJ used the term, "person" refers to one's current incarnation with all its attendant memories, skills, and personality. A different incarnation is a different person with the same soul. They are indeed not the same, though they obviously (at least, that's how I see it) do have a number of individual traits in common.

 

He hardly goes into detail about Rands situation though does he? Its not like RJ was giving a comparison between the Forsaken and Heroes, just Forsaken and rebirths in general. Rand isnt a normal case, his situation with Lews Therin resembles the Forsakens situation much more than any normal person reborn.