School

[Ikkarus]

Just to let everyone know, I am still alive; I just have not been too active because I have a chemistry exam today that I have been cramming all week for. I am very good at chemistry, but this is a new professor this year. I do not know if he likes to do tricky questions, so I need to make sure I know everything like the back of my hand, until I can get a feel for his exams. Yesterday was very fun; I decided to write my younger brother's essay for him and email it to him back home. It was a summer break assignment (love those), but he just transferred to that school and so he did not get enough time to read the book that they were writing about and so he was a bit at a loss on what to do. Luckily, I had to read that book, too (Siebenkäs), so I just told him I would write it for him and he could focus on all his other work.

 

I am just curious now - do you think school is harder today, academically (because I do not think there is as much discipline) than it was ten years ago or more ? It may be a different situation in different countries, but I get the idea that it is. Same as my brother, I got loaded with work in Gymnasium, too - like write 2 essays in a week on top of all the other daily homework you had to do. When I talk to my stepmother (who is pretty old), she basically said the hardest part about schools back when she was young was getting there (walking ten miles to school) and then making sure you did not step on the teacher's toes because they could hit you whenever they wanted. There was not really any homework. She was born a little after the war, though, once her father came home, so everything in Deutschland was still pretty chaotic - a lot of times, they had to worry about what they were going to eat instead of school - so maybe if I found a way to compare the U.S. schools at the same time, it would not look too far different from what the schools look like today besides they were not so focused on math and science. I have no idea. Back to last minute cramming .

[Al Jenn Mael]

Good luck on your exam and remember that it all has to do with electronegativity. Anything can be explained by electronegative potentials...

 

Anyways to answer your question, yes I do think school is getting academically harder. I don't see much point in it though since the majority of what they teach a student they will not use outside of an academic setting. Things like trigonometry, physics, or classical literature one will hardly ever use and won't in their career. It is preparing you for college and college is not really preparing you for a job. They both are just trying to make a person well rounded with a general education. Which I think is just ludicrous. We're in the information age where you don't really need to KNOW anything as it is a click or a few seconds away. What people need to learn is how to think, why to think, and to think for themselves. Develop critical and imaginative thinking skills. How to find information and what to do when you have found it.

 

/End Rant

[Guest BaLefireP]

Good luck on that exam!

 

*crosses fingers just to be sure*

[Ikkarus]

Good luck on your exam and remember that it all has to do with electronegativity. Anything can be explained by electronegative potentials...

 

Anyways to answer your question, yes I do think school is getting academically harder. I don't see much point in it though since the majority of what they teach a student they will not use outside of an academic setting. Things like trigonometry, physics, or classical literature one will hardly ever use and won't in their career. It is preparing you for college and college is not really preparing you for a job. They both are just trying to make a person well rounded with a general education. Which I think is just ludicrous. We're in the information age where you don't really need to KNOW anything as it is a click or a few seconds away. What people need to learn is how to think, why to think, and to think for themselves. Develop critical and imaginative thinking skills. How to find information and what to do when you have found it.

 

/End Rant

 

I do not have any problems with electronegativity - there were just some equations that he did not really specify whether we have to memorize, on top of how the test will actually look and be set up. I actually cannot really understand a question at all, if it is not worded a specific way . I think I did pretty good, now that it is past.

 

Well, trigonometry and physics, I can understand - they help develop intricate logic on a natural science scale, which most people do not use. Though it does come in handy so you know when someone is practicing bad scientific method, which is getting more important and accented nowadays. But learning and analyzing classical literature, I think, and history, naturally, which keeps the arts as a component, does help develop critical and imaginative thinking skills - I in fact cannot think of any proven method that does, other than learning the logic fields, but that hardly helps with imagination. Once these skills are gained, you might always run up in a situation where someone is trying to outwit and hence manipulate you; having a lot of knowledge at your disposal or the quick cognition that can be derived of it can get you out with the advantage.

 

My main complaints when I was in primary and secondary schools was just the work load. I mean, seriously - our parents seem very intelligent people, whatever generation they are from, and they did not have to go to and from school with a mass of books strapped on their backs because of the blasted homework they give today. I think it is really making people hate school more than ever, since it is encroaching so much on a person's social life - I remember some days, I had to sit and donate my entire evening just to writing an essay or a report that came out of nowhere while doing my daily math homework. It is like pulling your own teeth, forcing yourself to do that much work that your body and attention is protesting.

[Al Jenn Mael]

Yes it helps to develop a sense of critical thinking or scientific reasoning, however I don't really see the point of it when people get into the 'real world' or a non academic setting. It just isn't used that much. They should rather be teaching you resumes, financing, how to go about applying and actually getting a job. School should be tailored for what you need in the real world. They should help you learn how to organize a project or event, do the logistics, and actually go through with setting it up and running it. Being able to lead or come up with a plan and follow through with it may be simplistic but it is more practical and something people have trouble with. Academia is nice and I enjoy it a lot however I've seen it honestly just isn't used. You go out to any job from engineering to burger king to medical research to bomb disposal and when you get the job it is mostly on the job training. They want to know you have the skills and abilities to be able to preform the tasks but basically they are going to have to show you how they do their unique process and the ways to go about doing it. There will need to be some self motivation and just an ability to learn on your own and figure out processes as you go but those aren't the things taught in schools. School doesn't say this is what you need to know, go find it out, write a report, and come back to me. It is more here is the information and the workload memorize and do this then get back to us.

 

I'm glad you believe you did well on your test. From stoichiometry equations to Acid/Base nuetralization to Isomers and Polymers I think can all be explained by electronegative potentials and equations. Hopefully the class continues to go well for you.

 

As for the work load I agree, although I've never been one much for homework. I do know it is important though. Not for the reasons you're given but just to help you with the day in day out drudgery. When you get out into the work force you're going to have to do the typical 9 to 5 bland get up and just go punch in doing 'menial' tasks. Even crazy scientists or plumbers have a ridiculous amount of paperwork and meetings to go to. So I think that is what the value of homework is, making sure you do the tedious getting in on time little tasks that mean much more than your work ethic does which I think comes from projects. Homework and the intense textbooks students have now are idiotic. The things are pointlessly large just for the sake of being large. The information could be condensed and honestly students shouldn't really need all that. Memorization is something of the past, we are in an age of information at our finger tips. Teach process and over all concepts and let the details be searched and brought up when needed. If I need to find out how to balance the equation O_{2 (g)}+H_{2 (g)}-> H₂0 _(l) the internet and textbook should be available to the student. If they can find the answer no need to memorize it.

[Ikkarus]

Hmmmm...though it is a godsend to be able to look up most of the information you want relatively easily (I say most because somethings I like to learn you can only get through academic journals or databases, which are not free except while you are in university), I think it is important people memorize somethings. Not the garbage you do not care about at school - though I admit, a lot of that garbage is permanently stuck in between my ears because they forced it in that well - but knowing the details or statistics of things you take a fancy to, even if it is something as paltry as video games. Memorization, as other activities like reading or lateral thinking, is stimulus for the brain, and it is more convenient having information right at the back of your mind (and more impressive) than taking out a device to look up the information on a second's notice. With the growing trend of people lacking the ability to think creatively/critically and their inability to write beyond the skill of how I used to write in the third grade because of a growing reliance on the conveniences of the information age, people are still able to do the practicalities of their monotonous world, but they seem to be getting less intelligent, since their brain is their cell phone or computer, while the one in their head mostly holds very little.

 

Stuff in the practical world of business, I think, like knowing how to get insurance, pay your taxes, and such things, is very simple to know once the basics are outlined, but I do agree they do not teach enough of it - I had to learn all that from my parents because the school did not say a word. Interacting with bosses and peers is mostly common sense, I think; people have never been too hard for me to understand, so I could usually come up with a good response to any situation. So that almost means the only thing to teach in school would be academics not necessarily relevant to what you plan to do with your life, because if it was solely on practicality...I think school would be a lot shorter than it is, and people would not learn so much as being conditioned to be another chip in society.

 

But that is a great point ! Homework is meant to be practice to adjust to the feel as a drudge to society for the rest of your life ! I had truly never thought in it of that light ! I am enlightened - no joke ! I think I hate homework all the more for it now ! Ugh - I am feeling sick just thinking about it ! Uggggggghhhh! I am serious ! With new perspective...comes vomiting.

[charis sedai]

I'm sorry, Al... but I think you are operating on mis-information. SOME of the things I have to learn in school are awaste of my time. But schools are making a true effort to teach more real-world things. My Math class? "Math for the Modern World", in which I learned how to fill out a 1040, how to calculate interest, how to balance a budget... what a safe mortgage looked like... all very applicable to my life.

 

A Comparative Studies Literature Class turned into Globalization: the World in the 21st Century.

 

As for Critical Thinking, that is also something that has been stressed while I have been in college. Teachers in both my High School and my University are pushing students to learn to think, precisely BECAUSE we are in the information age and there are things we need to know to functiuon in our era. But perhaps the most important skill is the ability to think, and I think that that is a skill well and easily honed by time spent with classic literature, history and a good base education.

 

To answer the original question, I would say that school is EASIER now than it ever has been before, at least in the US. The work I do as a Senior in College is no harder, and perhaps easier than some of the things I did in high School. The more difficult thing about college now, I would say, is that a student must learn to manage his or her time well. It is a tricky balance. Once that is done, though, college becomes easier and easier. If you know and understand your schedule, and are an effective human being, college is not difficult. Time consuming, yes. Hard, no.

[Al Jenn Mael]

Stuff in the practical world of business, I think, like knowing how to get insurance, pay your taxes, and such things, is very simple to know once the basics are outlined, but I do agree they do not teach enough of it - I had to learn all that from my parents because the school did not say a word. Interacting with bosses and peers is mostly common sense, I think; people have never been too hard for me to understand, so I could usually come up with a good response to any situation. So that almost means the only thing to teach in school would be academics not necessarily relevant to what you plan to do with your life, because if it was solely on practicality...I think school would be a lot shorter than it is, and people would not learn so much as being conditioned to be another chip in society.

 

So to know that 1 standard deviation is 68% of the bell curve, 2 - 95%, that the gas constant is 8.314, that avogadros number is 6.023x10^23, that the Han Dynasty occurred 200 years before and after the birth of Christ, and Tolstoy wrote a boring novel about this Count Pierre dude. Nope don't think any of that is worthwhile in any way shape or form. The school system focuses on facts not on critical thinking and development. You fill in bubbles 1-5 it doesn't say find option 6. I agree that people need to be creative, imaginative, and develop a sense of critical thinking that follows the scientific formula however it isn't done by just general education. We aren't told to find new answers, or new ways, or NEW at all. The secondary education system in America promotes people to follow certain forms, think certain ways, and just do what you're told. Sure a general populace probably needs that mentality but it isn't promoting the skills you claim come from memorizing trivial facts. People need to learn how to think, find work arounds, basically just problem solve creatively. They don't need all the facts that we're taught.

 

Which they should. Not everyone goes to college nor do they need to. Trade school practices should be integrated into high school like it is in Europe so after highschool you can go be a plumber, carpenter, or nursing assistant without having to do the trade school thing. It shouldn't be based on practicality because people do need a general education, however 12 years is to much of general knowledge. School should help develop and root out a persons interests along with providing a base knowledge and understanding of the world to include creative thinking and problem solving. I believe it should be the practical and the abstract with some trivia not a focus on it. School wouldn't need to be shorter because then people could start doing projects, helping build houses, networking, art galleries, basically start doing projects that are relevant to jobs but not having to deal with the paperwork, meetings, and stuff that gets in the way. Stroking the spark of ambition before society starts to dampen it. A chip in society isn't a bad thing there are a lot of jobs out there that we need people to do; fast food, sewage, and line workers... that mentality helps for the average joe to do the basic unglamorous work we need done.

 

Homework is... dreary. Sorry I can't offer a better solution, but it exists for a reason.

 

 

 

 

Charis, I'm not misinformed I was talking about secondary education. Did you learn anything like that in high school? I don't think everyone needs to go to college, it isn't for everyone nor do I think it is for the average person. We've developed this idea that you have to go to College. I have 120 credits, almost a degree's worth but they are all overlapping general education. In High School I took Calculus 1, 2, 3, and 4. Getting a college degree shows you have the termination and a certain dedication which is what the employers are looking for not this vast knowledge that you've acquired. Are those classes handy and wonderful? Yes, although doing a 1040 by hand is antiquated and a waste of time. I tried it one year just to see what it is like... bleh. Anyways I'm sure you'll find over half the classes you've taken you won't use the knowledge from outside of college and all you got from it was a mental exercise.

 

Teachers have stressed critical thinking? I've come across very few public programs that do stress that. They generally stress how to prepare and study for standardized tests like the SAT or ACT. Learn the little tricks like two cars travel in opposite directions for 3 miles make a left turn and travel 4 miles how far are they away from each other. Answer a, b, c, or d. I want to see improvement on how you reach an answer rather than just get the right one. An emphasis on finding any way you can to get a solution, any problem can be solved with enough determination and creativity.

 

And now that is exactly what I've been trying to get at. I don't think school is easier now than before you just have better time management. That is what school is teaching you! Learn how to manage your time and deal with the day to day dreary homework. Not the crazy revolutionary projects of imaginative thinking and spurts of hard work, instead endurance. It's conditioning you for the workforce as a chip in society as Ikkarus said... which I sadly probably should just appreciate instead of argue with.

[charis sedai]

*sighs*

You aren't hearing what I am saying, I don't think. However, that could be a failure on my part to communicate it clearly.

 

The original question was: Is school harder or easier now, and my answer is easier, for sure. My parents honestly believed and still do that I am up until all hours of the night on homework. You and I both know that this is not necessarily true. They only believe this because they spent that much time doing homework when they were students. School is easier- which isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

On the other hand, yes, I did learn how to think in High School, and I went to a VERY poor excuse for a high school. I think you are wrong, I think College is both doable for almost everyone, just like Secondary Education, and these days, it is nearly impossible to get much of a job without a degree. There are some extenuating circumstances, I know, but for the most part any job worth making a career out of requires at least a bachelor's degree. Whether or not that is a silly change in our society is kind of a moot point. As for whether I will utilize the knowledge gleaned from my classes, you have to take into account my field of study. I'm a theatre major, so yes, I will use most of it. I have taken a lot of really bizarre classes to make me a better performer, and hopefully, that is knowledge I will use for the rest of my life. As for the classes outside my field of study, I really do see the value in knowledge for knowledge's sake (my Brown streak is quite wide). If wee reduce our knowledge pool to things we need to look up, it reduces the level of our intelligence as a culture and a race, something that is happening quickly enough without our helping it along the way. The level of our writing decreases, our ability to make use of the things we think up, without knowledge of math or science, and our ability to accurately gage the people we work with and live with. I know it is common sense for some of us, but Common Sense isn't all that common anymore.

[Al Jenn Mael]

When my parents went to high school it was in a school were the grades were mixed because the school was that small, where my graduation class was 32, still small. I received an exemplary education from an amazing school which was highly ranked when I graduated. (It was equal parts the curriculum and the type of students who attended) It was a public charter school. Anyways the homework load from all adults I've talked to has like Ikkarus is saying has increased dramatically for high school. The size and number of books are greater. The mandatory curriculum has continued to evolve as the government has required students learn more. Your parents spent more time on homework? Was this high school or college? I know my father while he was in college had to stay up late since as an engineer he had to use a computer the size of a house in which you put this time card like piece of paper into a machine and came back in six hours and pray that you got the coding right. I can't say he had more homework then... probably but it was more due to a shift in focus. For him it was more of a technical focus where as it seems general education has come to take up your entire first two years if not most of the third as well. So you're telling me that the amount of homework, schoolwork, and just hours put into education have diminished over the years?

 

I would concur with you for the second part generally. Society almost requires that you have a degree, although it isn't necessarily mandatory to get a good job it will just make your life easier. I've gotten to see these past few years the work force and spouses and dependents applying for jobs either through the government or in the area. It makes things easier but just as it has always been the biggest factor is who you know more than the 'qualifications'.

 

I have to disagree with it reducing our intelligence. And intelligence in general isn't all it is cracked up to be. Raw IQ is overrated, sure you can pick up on things faster but what is the really important thing is just buckling down and doing the work and the homework. I breezed through school doing just the classwork, homework in school, and tests while ignoring most of the stuff outside of class. It didn't set me up for actually having to do the monotonous homework. Knowledge is all good and fine at knowing, you won't see me saying people need to stop reading or just looking up information. However I do think that the endless memorizing of information for a test then dumping it afterward to prepare for the next test/lesson is stupid. I would rather the emphasis be on being able to recognize a problem, o' my computer is dying. Judge the symptoms; overheating, auto shut down, etc. And then look up and preform the solution. Or if someone wants to fix their own car or build a house.... lets see how I can relate it to your field of interest. For someone having trouble with a hard series of notes and to be able to look up youtube videos or notes on things to help you get through the set. I'd give a better example but your world is completely foreign to me.

 

People always complain about things not being as good as back in the day and society is becoming a waste of space however the average IQ and just average knowledge in the world and in the United States has been on the rise. Just ask the elderly or the old grandparents that are around what their schooling consisted of or who went to college. They weren't learning Shakespeare or about the conquests of Genghis Khan. The education system has been growing and growing from people only 100 years ago rarely going through 12 grades of high school to now almost requiring some sort of post secondary education. What use to take a warehouse to store can be put on a micro SD card, what use to take someone a lifetime to study and learn can be reached digitally in an instant (You make not understand it but all the information is right there), simply the digital age has made communication and information so accessible that I don't see the point in spending time memorizing it when you can develop other skills and use the tools at your disposal.

 

I should have an idea of what I'm doing when I go to cut the red or blue wire. I mean when I'm not doing the logistics side of my job and actually get to go on a response my life depends on knowing what I am doing. However I can get away with a general knowledge of what I need to know and then look up the details. I need to know how to go and figure out what I am working on without being explodededed and figure out how to make it safe. The older people preach knowing and memorizing everything, but we have laptops with all the knowledge just a click away. It is much simpler to know and study what to do to be safe then all the details. Just go look them up and apply the solution. Cut the blue wire.

[charis sedai]

o' my computer is dying. Judge the symptoms; overheating, auto shut down, etc. And then look up and preform the solution.

 

 

Jeez, Al, that was low. WAY below the belt on that one.

 

Once again, you don't understand what I am saying. I spend less time on stuff because the wok itself is easier. Not that the workload is lighter. but the actual work is easier. I don't have to typically do much- read and respond, watch videos aon how the brain works, work on a paper, etc. I always have work to do- always have and always will. But it is typically an easier, although heavier load. If you ever get a teacher who has been teaching for 50 or 60 years, you'll get it. They expect FAR more out of their students than the younger generation, and they have every right to.

 

Until then, *shrug*

 

There's no point in this conversation.

[Lynchgrinch]

Good luck!

 

heh, i don't know you...but what i do know is that chemistry is aweful hard, i failed it in my last year of school...i'm more of a Physics guy myself.

 

I think schools are much less disciplined now than what they were 10 years ago, i don't agree with the belt or anything but i do agree that there should be harser punishment to stop unruly folks, NED's here in scotland...only there to do my head in!

 

anyhoo good luck!

[Al Jenn Mael]

Low? What do you mean? You figured out what was wrong yourself, got the answers, and now it's working isn't it. It's the perfect example of what I want people to do...

 

Anyways, do you think it's just your major? I've taken a lot more of the hard sciences classes and have been taught and expected to know a lot more than my fathers generation, probably just because there is more to know, but still...

 

I've generally found the younger teachers are harder, mostly because they are just more motivated and zealous. Old teachers just don't put up with anything... O.o

[Ikkarus]

It is not the content they gain in massive memorization that improves cognitive skill - I do not remember if that is what it sounded like I said or not because I am too lazy to go look at my own writing and I do not remember it , but what I meant was simply exercising the brain, which memorization and other cerebral activities promote, is the key to critical and creative thinking. I used to memorize things I do not especially care about because I had to, and while I did not gain anything pertinent from the actual information, it did get my brain stimulated for however long a time afterwards, and I was able to think more clearly. School, after all, did not teach me much of anything in terms of intricate thinking - like you said, it is about teaching you to pass tests - but it did keep my mind on edge and now and then gave me a hint of something interesting that I looked up on my own later.

 

Though, I am little confused. If you want to promote critical thinking and creativity, is it then not necessary to make sure the students tap other areas outside of what they think is going to be the stuff of their career ? Even if they hate it, in theory, it offers new perspectives, even if it seems completely unrelated to what they want as a job - if you simply assess a student and throw him into a career trek, he does not get those perspectives or expansion to his thought. Just turning them into busy, worker bees - I suppose from one social standpoint, that is acceptable, but if we are taking an artistic and philosophical stance, it is not. But then, there is a problem, and going back to what you said about general education not actually culturing mental process; if general education is not providing the right sort of stimulus for the intelligence to begin with, than why force a student to take more garbage than they need ? Since general education's purpose is to manufacture "functional" groups for society instead offering perspective and psychological enhancement...then career paths for students is a logical design for it.

 

Wow, too much text up there. Computer text gives me a migraine.

[Talya]

I'm going to have to say, no it isn't harder. When I see what kids have to do to get qualifications today, compared to when I took them. It is a lot easier. There is course work etc. We never had that, we had to learn it all and then spend hours in writing exam after exam. I've also seen a lot of kids take stuff off the internet re hash and use it as work, you spell check etc. I didn't have any of that, you had to read loads of different books, write down in your own words and be able to spell correctly. Draw diagrams and not take them off the net.

 

Anyway thats my answer, from my perspective of when I took stuff at scholol and seeing what my daughter and friends of mine kids have done

[Al Jenn Mael]

Hmm, guess I'll need to look around more, maybe you're right Charis.

 

Ikkarus not just your career path but also how to think, so philosophy. Sure you'll want this angle and that, but it comes down to a class to show all sides of a topic in a neutral light and I don't see Americans showing Hitler from his perspective or Lincoln in a negative light of being responsible for more American deaths than anyone.

[Tiinker]

Go to school in China! Wake up 5 am, School 12 hours, tests everyday homework everyday late for class = detention, dont do your homework = stay after school detention. Get home n study till 1 - 2 am. Sleep 2 hours get back to school!

 

And if you get an "F" then your parents kung fu your ass so study study study!

 

Homeworks optional (Y)

[Ikkarus]

Wait...what ? I know what you mean - I am just not connecting what you said to what I said except in the vaguest terms .

[Tiinker]

Oh! i thought we were complaining about school! Hahaa snap x_x ill be out of here =p

[Ikkarus]

No, no, Tiinker ! I meant Al Jenn. Sorry, you are fine !