Opening Excerpt From The Prologue

[Luckers]

For Discussion of Loial's excerpt. Requested by Matrin DeLaneous

 

In the excerpt from Loil's book, I'm curious if anyone found it unusual that the ogier spirits / dead were forced to stay outside the stedding? Makes me wonder why if the stedding are safe from some of the cosequences of time /the pattern unravelling, why wouldn't they be a safe haven during TG?

[theblacksmith]

For Discussion of Loial's excerpt. Requested by Matrin DeLaneous

 

In the excerpt from Loil's book, I'm curious if anyone found it unusual that the ogier spirits / dead were forced to stay outside the stedding? Makes me wonder why if the stedding are safe from some of the cosequences of time /the pattern unravelling, why wouldn't they be a safe haven during TG?

 

I never want to second guess you man, you are right too often, but...I just kinda figured they were standing there by choice ( you know doing what they would have been doing if alive) but now I have to go read it again. On the other point I believe TG decides the fate of the pattern so all dimensions related to it are in fact in danger, and this will probably Loial's argument...but let me say again I defer to your judgement hell, how many times have you missed?

[dwn]

Given how destructive the Breaking was to the Stedding, I'd say the Ogier are rightfully concerned about their ability to weather another global cataclysm.

 

-- dwn

[Luckers]

For Discussion of Loial's excerpt. Requested by Matrin DeLaneous

 

In the excerpt from Loil's book, I'm curious if anyone found it unusual that the ogier spirits / dead were forced to stay outside the stedding? Makes me wonder why if the stedding are safe from some of the cosequences of time /the pattern unravelling, why wouldn't they be a safe haven during TG?

 

I never want to second guess you man, you are right too often, but...I just kinda figured they were standing there by choice ( you know doing what they would have been doing if alive) but now I have to go read it again. On the other point I believe TG decides the fate of the pattern so all dimensions related to it are in fact in danger, and this will probably Loial's argument...but let me say again I defer to your judgement hell, how many times have you missed?

 

 

To be clear, that quote is Matrim's thoughts. I merely repeated it in created the thread at his request.

[Random Man]

Given how destructive the Breaking was to the Stedding, I'd say the Ogier are rightfully concerned about their ability to weather another global cataclysm.

 

-- dwn

That could certainly be an argument in favor of them fleeing. I mean, sure, they could stay and fight, but what if the Stedding are lost again and they all perish to the Longing? Then there'd be no more Ogier. On the other hand, they could flee and hope that the Light wins, thus ensuring the survival of their race. While the latter decision seems cowardly, it may actually be the only way to ensure that the Ogier don't die even if they stay and the Light wins. Although on an emotional level one could say that if the Ogier aren't willing to take personal responsibility for survival of the Pattern, then they don't deserve to survive as a people. I hope we get to see more of the debate at the Great Stump, though I have a nagging suspicion we won't.

[havnomercy]

The Gardeners (seachan ogiers) can survive outside the steddings/show no signs of longing.. So maybe the randland ogiers may survive after/if the steddings are lost..if they buckle up n fight they might come in contact with the gardeners and learn to survive outside steddings..

[Matrim DeLaneous]

For Discussion of Loial's excerpt. Requested by Matrin DeLaneous

 

In the excerpt from Loil's book, I'm curious if anyone found it unusual that the ogier spirits / dead were forced to stay outside the stedding? Makes me wonder why if the stedding are safe from some of the cosequences of time /the pattern unravelling, why wouldn't they be a safe haven during TG?

 

I never want to second guess you man, you are right too often, but...I just kinda figured they were standing there by choice ( you know doing what they would have been doing if alive) but now I have to go read it again. On the other point I believe TG decides the fate of the pattern so all dimensions related to it are in fact in danger, and this will probably Loial's argument...but let me say again I defer to your judgement hell, how many times have you missed?

 

 

To be clear, that quote is Matrim's thoughts. I merely repeated it in created the thread at his request.

 

I brought this comment up not so much from a theoretical inclination but from a sense of peculiarity. I'm not sure we'll ever fully understand the nature of the stedding. We know the Avendesora (sp) like feelings one has when they're in the stedding. We know you can't channel in the stedding. I don't think you can even channel in to a stedding. etc, etc, etc. I just found it unusual / contradictive even, that in Loil's excerpt, we see that while even the trees in the stedding are feeling the ripples of the unraveling pattern (dying and resistent to any song), however the dead ogier spirits can't seem to enter and are forced encircle and look in from the outside? Can they truly not enter, is it supposed to sybolize the time of Longing, or is there another answer?

[martianblues]

I really hoped we would get to see at least some of Loial's speech at the Stump, but I too have a nagging suspicion we won't. Considering that were are given that little teaser, and how much else needs to happen in this book, I think all we may get is a few memory flashbacks in a Loial POV while he is trying to find Rand to tell him the outcome.

[YinYangMan]

I bought the Audiobook version of Distractions form Audible.com and I don't recall any quote, sentence or paragraph from Loail. Is it short enough that it could be posted in this thread?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Sentinel78]

It soon became obvious, even within the stedding, that the Pattern was growing frail. The sky darkened. Our dead appeared, standing in rings outside the borders of the stedding, looking in. Most troublingly, trees fell ill, and no song would heal them.

 

It was in this time of sorrows that I stepped up to the Great Stump. At first, I was forbidden, but my mother, Covril, demanded I have my chance. I do not know what sparked her change of heart, as she herself had argued quite decisively for the opposing side. My hands shook. I would be the last speaker, and most seemed to have already made up their minds to open the Book of Translation. They considered me an afterthought.

 

And I knew that unless I spoke true, humanity would be left alone to face the Shadow. In that moment my nervousness fled. I felt only a stillness, a calm sense of purpose. I opened my mouth, and I began to speak.

 

-from The Dragon Reborn, by Loial, son of Arent son of Halan, of Stedding Shangtai.

 

I've seen lots of sites post prophecies verbatim so I'm guessing it's OK to post this, in terms of copyright.

[jdbond]

I bought the Audiobook version of Distractions form Audible.com and I don't recall any quote, sentence or paragraph from Loail. Is it short enough that it could be posted in this thread?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Kindle for PC won't allow copy paste but it's there. 3 paragraphs from Book named Draqon reborn, author Loial. It is about Loial addressing the great stump.

[Grape_Ape]

Would somebody please tell me where the Book Of Translation first showed up in the books? I can't remember ever seeing anything of the sort. That is, until I saw it the ToM prologue. I've read the series through several times over the last 10 years. Usually right before a new book is released. But I don't even have a vague recollection of this.

[YinYangMan]

According to Encyclopedia WOT it was first mentioned in Knive of Dreams - Chapter 19.

[Sharaman]

The Gardeners (seachan ogiers) can survive outside the steddings/show no signs of longing.. So maybe the randland ogiers may survive after/if the steddings are lost..if they buckle up n fight they might come in contact with the gardeners and learn to survive outside steddings..

 

RJ said the Seanchan Ogiers survived the Breaking without suffering from the longing because there were many more undamaged steddings in Seanchan. They have lots of stedding to R&R in. The Seanchan Gardeners have no special ability in this regard, they were just lucky. The Seanchan are a very organised, bureaucratic army; the Gardeners would get home leave to push off to steddings, every so often.

In any case, we've seen from Loial's own case and other incidents that he and his mum/ Elder Haman refer to, that Ogier have no problems wandering around for up to five years at a time continuously, without hitting a stedding.

[duncanwright]

Hi all, first post, a big one - I apologise

 

I was hoping to find a thread about the Ogier dead outside the stedding, as I too thought this interesting and it kind of works with some ideas I've been thinking, while lurking over the last couple of months, about the interaction of the dimensions in WoT.

 

First: I think, though am not certain, that stedding are not accessible in TAR - this would be something in common with the blight, which has been stated to not be a natural part of the world.

 

This along with a few other bits and pieces that hint at, or are obviously about, other dimensions e.g. the finns, the Nym (tEotW itself), the bore and the DO's prison, the Ways and also TAR. These give me the following picture (which may not be original/unique but I haven't found it explicitly elsewhere):

 

The WoT world has a number of other dimensions interacting / forcing themselves on it.

 

For example the Blight could be another (probable?) dimension which (through the DOs influence?) is slowly forcing itself onto the main WoT one and the stedding could be parts of another dimension (perhaps from the last time the Ogier read the book of translation? or the Ogier home dimension?). The section of the other dimesion that is taking over may have to be from another probable dimension (e.g. accessible from the portal stones) rather than from a different dimension (like the finns) since the land shape and basic rules/behaviour is similar to the normal WoT world.

 

 

I think that this fits in this thread since the Ogier dead don't (can't?) get into the stedding (it's also inaccessible from TAR) - these Ogier may have died in the WoT dimension and can't cross into the stedding (dimension). For those that died in the stedding, they may have left the Wot dimension or done whatever souls do in the stedding home dimension or even may be unaffected since the DO's dead walking (or the pattern unravelling causing the dead walking, whichever) does not affect the inside of the stedding.

 

Also, questions on the 'Ogier from another dimension' topic, No Ogier can channel? No Ogier are bound to the horn? related: None of the Nym are bound to the horn?

These things, if correct, seem odd for races that are/have been a signifcant part of the WoT world.

 

I think that while reading the books the multi-dimension-ness of the series does not stand out as an obviously important factor - it can be easy to lump some of those things listed above with the 'magic' in WoT - but when all the pieces of this are put together I think that this could be a major part in understanding questions like: What is the DO/creator? What is the blight/stedding/TAR? and Where did the Nym/Ogier come from originally?

(my answers tend to begin with - there is another dimension in which ....)

 

I also realise this may not be a popular theory since it seems to simplistic to just 'blame' everything on other dimensions. However it could provide somewhat consistent answers to many as yet unanswered questions.

[Slick Mongoose]

I also realise this may not be a popular theory since it seems to simplistic to just 'blame' everything on other dimensions. However it could provide somewhat consistent answers to many as yet unanswered questions.

 

Like string theory.

[Luckers]

For example the Blight could be another (probable?) dimension which (through the DOs influence?) is slowly forcing itself onto the main WoT one.

 

RJ has confirmed that the Blight is another reality--also that you cannot access the Blight in TAR because of this.

[duncanwright]

I suppose that leads to questions on the difference between 'reality', 'dimension' and the other possible timelines accessible from portal stones. I just looked at the 'Portal Stone' reference on http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Portal_Stone (not certain of the right to quote this source?) which seems to support such possiblilities as I suggested (also I think the solution to the large trolloc numbers being in alternate timelines/dimensions).

 

@Slick : I'd like to think that since we actually have seen characters go into these alternate dimensions its slightly more acceptable than some 7 tiny unobservable dimensions co-existing with our own and all matter (and energy?) being the twisting of these dimensions in our own - though I see your point

[mossman87]

I suppose that leads to questions on the difference between 'reality', 'dimension' and the other possible timelines accessible from portal stones. I just looked at the 'Portal Stone' reference on http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Portal_Stone (not certain of the right to quote this source?) which seems to support such possiblilities as I suggested (also I think the solution to the large trolloc numbers being in alternate timelines/dimensions).

 

@Slick : I'd like to think that since we actually have seen characters go into these alternate dimensions its slightly more acceptable than some 7 tiny unobservable dimensions co-existing with our own and all matter (and energy?) being the twisting of these dimensions in our own - though I see your point

 

This stuff is beyond the scope of the books, but will probably be in the encyclopedia. This includes multiple Patterns, Wheels, etc. But yeah with RJ's physics background and Mirror Worlds (the Portal Stone worlds), Parallel Worlds (Finns, Wherever the Ogier are from), and the True Source based off of quantum dynamics, you have a good idea.

 

Actually here's a good conversation: http://www.theorylan...read.php?t=2714 I won't quote it because it's huge, but it goes into multiple worlds and how it's beyond the books. Gives you something to look forward to even after the books.

[duncanwright]

Cheers Bluedust. I had read the Lanfear/Cyndane parts of that but had not seen the start with the mention of multiple dimensions etc.

[Lisa Campbell]

I have a thought about dreaming and TAR, Stedding, Rhuidean when there was fog. Egwene said that you couldn't enter any of them in the dream. And the blight is beginning to infiltrate the Stedding. And other odd things like not being able to channel etc. What if the protection of these places was created? Maybe even not by the power but by the others who created stuff like portal stones and links to other worlds. Why is it dangerous to be in TAR in the flesh besides risking losing yourself?

 

Now that Rhuidean has lost it's protective field, I wonder if the blight is showing there too. What about Avendesora?

 

It also makes me wonder about Far Madding. Does anyone know if you can dream yourself inside the Guardian?

[Sharaman]

I have a thought about dreaming and TAR, Stedding, Rhuidean when there was fog. Egwene said that you couldn't enter any of them in the dream. And the blight is beginning to infiltrate the Stedding. And other odd things like not being able to channel etc. What if the protection of these places was created? Maybe even not by the power but by the others who created stuff like portal stones and links to other worlds. Why is it dangerous to be in TAR in the flesh besides risking losing yourself?

 

Now that Rhuidean has lost it's protective field, I wonder if the blight is showing there too. What about Avendesora?

 

It also makes me wonder about Far Madding. Does anyone know if you can dream yourself inside the Guardian?

 

Stedding, Finnlands proper (the Tower of Ghenjei is accessible) and the Blight still aren't accessible from TAR as far as we know. Rhuiean was a specific ter'angreal protection - Asmo-Rand smashed it while fighting. The others seem to be outside "normal" dimensions - they have different physics. Nobody knows why the Aiel Dreamwalkers consider it dangerous to be in TAR in the flesh - doesn't seem to have done any harm to Egwene, Rand, various Forsaken, etc.

Yes, you can Dream your way into Far Madding - Slayer used TAR to go there, for example.

[Lisa Campbell]

Thanks Sharaman. I knew there was something to strike out Far Madding but I couldn't remember what. Do you have any thoughts about Avendesora though?

[duncanwright]

I think that Rhuidean is too far south to be affected by the Blight isn't it? Avendesora is interesting for sure - Why is it considered so mystical? Is it involved in growing the Ways? Why were they so important that the original Aiel have to cart them around with them. Maybe there are answers I don't know about?

 

As for Blights taking over stedding - what the hell happens then? does it still feel all stedding-like? I guess in the dimensional take-over idea the Blight reality just dominates and it is no longer associated with the stedding reality.

 

The links between the OP, the wheel and the weave (TP destroys disrupts the weave, OP makes/is the weave) makes me think that a blocked off part of the world like Far Madding must be affected in other ways by the pattern not being able to be woven properly there or something??

[Tom Sawyer]

Avendesora's a chora tree. They seemed to be a common feature of cities in the AoL where they created a sense of peace or something when you were underneath them. That way, people were all calm and relaxed and not causing trouble. Sort of like keeping order by putting the population on Prozac. The Aiel took a bunch with them so that they could grow a bunch of chora trees wherever they ended up stopping, but only one survived.