The Mysteries of Cyndane

[Sharaman]

I think the quote is pretty clear and unambiguous - maybe you could discuss your interpretation with a grammarian.

It would be grammatically incorrect/ incongruous to write "Some things could only be done here, some only to those who can channel, and she had brought a number of men and women for this very purpose" since it means switching tenses twice in the same sentence.

Nitpicking apart, there are several vulnerabilities (binder, 13x13) that only channelers seem to possess. The way the mind-trap works seems intimately linked with channeling ability.

[yoniy0]

Yes, the ability. But the basic core of that ability doesn't go away when one gets Severed. Case in point - Siuan sensing Moghedien through the adam. The ability is intrinsic to the soul. I'll concede that a Binder cannot Bind someone who suffers that fate, but I don't see that as proof, considering the conflicting evidence.

 

As to grammatical issues, at some point I'll have to defer to the judgment of native English speakers, as you know I am not one. However, I don't believe the sentence "Some things can only be done here, some only to those who can channel, and she had brought a number of men and women for this very purpose" is invalid, if that's what RJ meant to say, but perhaps I'm wrong?

[Kaznen]

It happens in [... the] Belgariad

What? When?

 

I'll admit I'm stretching it thin with that one. But I'm talking about when Polgara was afraid Belgarath lost his powers. Then when Garion, Silk, and Belgarath met that witch in the fens Belgarath was able to use his magic to make the fen "men" talk.

 

But he "lost his power" and was able to do something only the gods should have been able to do.

[yoniy0]

Ah. Yes, that makes sense. Thanks.

[FarShainMael]

I have a theory that doesn't have much basis except for 1 line and conjecture. It's also way out there at a FSM level of crazy theories.

 

Why thank you sir!!

 

Have you ever come across that comment by the physicist Niels Bohr? 'Your theory is crazy - but is it crazy enough to be true?'

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

She states this with so much belief in the fact that I find it very odd. If her abnormal strength was natural, why why was she so surprised that somebody could be as strong/stronger? But what if her strength was abnormal? Then her disbelief could have a basis.

 

If her strength was modified to be so great it was impossibly to have naturally, she would be surprised at somebody being as strong\stronger. Then when she died, whatever enhancement she had wasn't transmigrated along with her soul to a new body.

 

Could be. Of course, it might have been not so much belief, but arrogance of the 'I'm the greatest and I'll balefire anyone who dares claim otherwise' variety.

[Sharaman]

What have Cyndi and Moiraine got in common appearance-wise apart from (lack of ) height?

Cyndi is a platinum blonde with blue eyes and serious cleavage (arf! arf!)

Moiraine is dark-eyed, dark-haired and not described as particularly well-endowed.

What is more Halima/ Balty tries to chat her up at the Ansaline Gardens and doesn't recognise her as the AS he met at the EotW.

[FarShainMael]

Surely, physical similarity isn't relevant after a transmigration (if such occurred).

[Sharaman]

All the Cabriana / Sylvase/ Moiraine theories are based on some level of physical similarity.

Transmigration replaces one soul with another, leaving the body intact and unchanged.

To transmigrate a channeler (I don't think we've ever seen non-channeler transmigration), GLoD finds a body with the channeling gene and then swaps souls. For stilled channelers, as per Maria's clarification in the first post (Lucker's post), the channeler would need to be healed to regain channeling ability.

But in all instances the body stays the same physically or, at least we've never been told otherwise.

[FarShainMael]

Yes, but surely the body that the soul (or merged souls!) is tm'd from doesn't have to physically resemble the body it arrives in?

 

It doesn't even have to be the same sex! Just ask Aran'gar (aka Balthamel).

 

 

 

(Why do I get the feeling you know all this but are just trying me out??)

[Sharaman]

Ah - I thought the theory was that Cyndane was Moiraine's body and Lanfear+Moiraine's soul?

Are you suggesting Cyndane is a random, vertically challenged blue-eyed blonde body into which both lanfear+Moiraine souls were merged?

BTW Aran'gar is the only known case in WoTverse where the gender switch of souls occurs - souls are generally tied to gender - always so when reborn normally.

[FarShainMael]

No. My understanding of transmigration is that the DO grabs a soul at the moment of death and inserts it into a new body, which need not look anything at all like the body the soul came out of, and need not even be the same sex. Even though, as you point out, the Aran'gar case is the only one of its type we've seen. so far.

 

So yes, I'm suggesting that Moiraine and Lanfear were merged; their bodies died; and the DO grabbed the merged souls and stuck them in a convenient body.

 

(Sorry about my irritation, btw. I'm happy to defend a thesis , but not when it should be obvious what's going on.)

[Sharaman]

Sorry for the confusion!

Yes of course, the new body needn't look anything like the old body.

I thought (based on several people's speculation about Moiraine body= Cyndane - not yours) that your dual-boot theory was that Moiraine's body was being used as the newly-partitioned dual boot server.

My earlier objection remains - there is a simpler explanation that covers all the bases.

(Lanfear stilled, died, transmigrated, healed, mind-trapped, etc).

[FarShainMael]

No probs!

 

(Actually, I must get on with installing Linux here.. but I'll probably use a second hard drive instead of partitioning.) (And call it Moiraine )

[Lynander]

You are all wrong!! Cyndine is not Moiraine reborn. She is not Lanfear reborn either. Or some combination of the two.

 

Cyndine is...!!!

 

wait for it...

 

taps foot in irritation...

 

ILYENA REBORN

DUNDUNDUNNNNNN

 

the proof is all there. You just have the reread the entire series to find it.

[FarShainMael]

Of course! How silly of me!

 

[mossman87]

Isn't the Lanfear died, was transmigrated, healed by a woman, turned into Cyndane theory more probable than the Lanfear+Moiraine bizness?

After all, we do know that a women channeler healed by a woman is weaker, we do know GLoD can transmigrate dead souls, we do know that a stilled channeler who was transmigrated would need to be healed to regain channeling ability, and we do know that Cyndane reappeared before any man knew how to heal stilling.

We also know that several BA women (eg Dagdara) had access to the healing technique Nyn discovered.

Why do you need this complicated dual boot theory if a simpler explanation that covers all the known details about Cyndane exists?

 

To be a unique flower. Ever read any FelixPax posts?

[Suttree]

Isn't the Lanfear died, was transmigrated, healed by a woman, turned into Cyndane theory more probable than the Lanfear+Moiraine bizness?

After all, we do know that a women channeler healed by a woman is weaker, we do know GLoD can transmigrate dead souls, we do know that a stilled channeler who was transmigrated would need to be healed to regain channeling ability, and we do know that Cyndane reappeared before any man knew how to heal stilling.

We also know that several BA women (eg Dagdara) had access to the healing technique Nyn discovered.

Why do you need this complicated dual boot theory if a simpler explanation that covers all the known details about Cyndane exists?

 

To be a unique flower. Ever read any FelixPax posts?

 

YES! I was waiting to see how long it would take for someone to bring up Dida/Felix. Quick sample of his "Hypotheses I support "

 

Lanfear is Lanfear; Cyndane is only Cyndane

The 3rd man is Valan Luca

Mat will save Lanfear from the Eelfinn

Moghedien shall strike again!

Rand, Alivia, Lanfear are the "Three Who Shall Become One" with Callandor. They shall seal the Bore hole; and then die killing every Shadowspawn together

[Hybrid]

Um. What?

[AuldGoldBeard]

I agree that Lanfear fell through the gate, wished she could kill Asmo without realizing what she was doing, and the price turned out that she got stilled or lost some of her strength. She throws a hissy fit, gets killed, and either gets transmigrated in weakened state (my preferred choice) or healed.

 

I know you addressed this, Luckers, and that the Thirteenth Depository isn't a definitive source, but they have Siuan and Leane 7 tiers below their old strength, while Cyndane is only one tier below Lanfear. Makes it tougher to swallow the Healing theory, although I'm not really sure what 13D based their Cyndane rating on.

[FarShainMael]

Who the bleep is FelixPax?

[FarShainMael]

My earlier objection remains - there is a simpler explanation that covers all the bases.

(Lanfear stilled, died, transmigrated, healed, mind-trapped, etc).

 

How is that simpler than Lanfear and Moiraine merged, died, transmigrated?

 

Esp as it doesn't deal with Moiraine at all? Why is she stil in the Tower?

[Luckers]

Who the bleep is FelixPax?

 

He used to post as Dida.

[Sharaman]

My earlier objection remains - there is a simpler explanation that covers all the bases.

(Lanfear stilled, died, transmigrated, healed, mind-trapped, etc).

 

How is that simpler than Lanfear and Moiraine merged, died, transmigrated?

 

Esp as it doesn't deal with Moiraine at all? Why is she stil in the Tower?

 

The Lanfear stilled, died, transmigrated, healed theory doesn't at any stage require assumptions of strange new powers, which we don't understand, and haven't seen demonstrated. This is unlike the merging theory. It can be described in four stages

1) They were both stilled crashing through the doorway with Lanfear using her angreal and Moiraine embracing the source.

2) They were both captured (Cyndi's PoV, Moi's vision)

3) Lanfear died, was transmigrated, healed, mindtrapped, etc. We know GLoD and his minions have the ability to pull this off.

4) Moiraine didn't die and is still held in Finnland

We know each of these steps is possible and none requires new assumptions about powers, we don't know about.

 

The merging, etc, theory assumes extensions of a process we don't understand (merging - we've learnt little about how Luc-Isam happened and in what specific circs, a merge can be replicated); it also involves assumptions about the way a dual-boot works (can one personality be suppressed? can the merged personality be carried over to a brand new body? etc), Those assumptions can be challenged and cannot be proved by references to prior demonstrations or quotes by the author(s).

 

Why should an explanation for Cyndane also incorporate an explanation for Moiraine? They're two different people.

But if you want one, Moiraine didn't die/ wasn't killed, for whatever reasons in Finnland, while Lanfear did die/was killed. (The latter I think, because she was held captive for a time).

 

If you trust both Cyndane's PoV and Moiraine's letter, the merged theory becomes extremely unlikely. One remembers being held captive in both Finnlands and remembers being the ultimate saidar channeler before she was held captive. The other's vision at Rhuidean as she describes it, didn't see a strange break in her existential continuity and clearly sees her still being held captive until she's rescued.

[FarShainMael]

But merging isn't a 'strange new power'. As you mention, it's an extension of what happened to Luc/Isam. No, we don't understand that, I agree. There are differences between the hypothetically merged Cyndane and Luc/Isam, certainly; but neither Luc nor Isam could channel AFAWK, which may account for those differences.

 

Can one personality be suppressed? Possibly, by a technique similar to Compulsion.

Can a merged personality be carried over? Why not, if a single personality can?

 

 

Cue Demmy..

At first he had thought {Cyndane} was Lanfear reincarnated.. H had been sure, until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than Lanfear.. Yet she spoke of al'Thor as Lews Therin, just as Lanfear had.

If Lanfear had been stilled and healed as Cyndane, why doesn't Demmy know about it? Have his spies let him down?

 

Cyndane's PoV in WH35 certainly indicates that Lanfear is present in that body:

 

She would have faced the Great Lord - faced the Creator! - with him. She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her!

 

I can't see anything in Moiraine's letter to Rand that suggests she had any inkling of what might happen to her after the fall through the gateway. But I can see that she did not say anything to Rand because she did not want him tearing off to rescue her. She left that job to Mat.

 

The letter to Thom, which he shows to Mat, is given in KoD10 and I won't quote it in full here. It's full of 'may be's and similar ambiguities. One part in particular reads:

I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen us all live and die as captives.'

 

It's nitpicking I know but I'll say it anyway.. captives of who, though? The 'rescue party' may well be hedl captive by the 'finns, but that doesn't necessarily include Moiraine herself. If Moiraine is in Cyndane's body and suppressed by Lanfear, that is captivity of another sort.

 

And why would the 'finns hold her captive anyway?

 

(I'll be going offline later today, and will be away for a week or so, so I won't be able to respond for a while.)

[Demiandre]

I can't see anything in Moiraine's letter to Rand that suggests she had any inkling of what might happen to her after the fall through the gateway

 

She wanted to help Rand, not make sure he went to rescue her and possibly die. He is supposed to save the world. And she indicated she saw nothing after the dock, but I think she implied "outside of what happened to me".

 

And why would the 'finns hold her captive anyway?

Because she broke the rules? She asked to be held captive? She didn't mentioned leaving this place (as Mat did) and only asked for being alive? Many possibilities.