Why is Mat going to lose an eye?

[Rational_Solutions]

Ok, this has been a pet peeve of mine. It keeps flairing up when I read any of the WoT websites. Why on earth does everyone think that Mat is going to lose an eye?

 

Yes, there has been dreams and visions showing him with out an eye, gambling with an eye, etc. That doesn't mean he is going to lose his eyes or even one of them.

 

If you look at all of Egewens dreams they are all metephoric or if not exactly metephoric, they are definately up to interpretation.

 

Min's viewings are all left to her interpretation and she doesn't even know what all of them mean. If she does know what it means then she knows it will happen.

 

I have seen no substantial evidence to suggest that infact Mat is going to lose one of his eyes. Yes, there has been many "references" to him losing one or bleeding from his eye sockets. Who is to say it is going to happen.

 

I guess I just don't understand why everyone is so dead set on him losing his eye. Please explain.

 

 

 

discuss.

[Marrow Rahien]

Because he's Odin.

 

 

OK, seriously, while there's a number of in text references to go along with that which others will bring to the table...it's because he's Odin. It's one of the few times in the series where the source material behind the character's destiny is really, really in your face. (At least to folks who have have an interest in Norse myth)

[Wise One]

I think the main reasons are the following:

 

1. There are clear and unambiguous references to eyes concerning Mat, particularly 'an eye on a balance scale'. While what you said is true about them being dream references, they fit the other points.

 

2. Mat is clearly based at least in part on Odin (I think its Odin, but the correct Norse god if I'm wrong), who gave up an eye for wisdom. Many characters in the series have characteristics taken from mythology like that.

 

3. To me, the most important point is the Eifmen prophecy when Mat visits them in TSR. The first two parts (marriage & dying and living again) did definitely come true, so the third should not be doubted. It is "To give up half the light of the world to save the world". Now, this is very metaphorical, and at first I didnt connect it to eyes, but if you think about what 'the light of the world' is, its your sight, and by giving up an eye, Mat sacrifices half his sight, hense fulfilling their prophecy. I suspect the eye bit is connected to rescuing Moiraine.

[Rational_Solutions]

You guys are correct in the Odin reference but RJ has a tendency to twist myth and lore to give some semblance to something familiar while it not being like that at all. Example the nations of Randland.

 

Yes, they fit other points but what other dreams or visions were so clear cut as Mat's eye? Also, every other dream or vision concerning Mat has been extremely figurative. Why would this one item be so plainly laid out for us?

 

I can see the line of thought you are using Wise One, I just think it is too simple and easy for RJ's style. RJ never does anything easy and simple.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It could very well be related to the rescue of Moiraine. That would not surprise me at all.

 

I also think it could be related to the Seanchan, and an accomodation reached after the last battle. They place great symbolic signifigance on eyes (for example, how every oath is "My eyes!" or ,"I swear it on my eyes"). The sacrifice of an eye might be a sufficient "omen" to persuade Tuon not to continue her attempt to conquer Randland. And for those who defend Tuon's rationality ... she is intelligent, and internally rational within her concept of the world. But her POV's clearly show that she accepts "omens" as VERY real and in a sense, binding. She literally bases her decisions on them.

[Marrow Rahien]

Rational_Solutions Said

You guys are correct in the Odin reference but RJ has a tendency to twist myth and lore to give some semblance to something familiar while it not being like that at all. Why would this one item be so plainly laid out for us? RJ never does anything easy and simple.

 

 

Honestly, I've found most of the Odin parallels to really be easy and simple. Do I expect Matt to trade his eye to a god in exchange for Wisdom and toss it into a well? No. Do I expect the eye to go bye bye because Odin loses an eye? Yes.

 

I'm sure he'll twist it -- just like he twisted the Ravens for Matt. But in the end, the eye is gonna go. Of all the things due out in the next book, short of Moraine not returning nothing would shock me more than Matt not losing an eye.

[Guest Majsju]

Do I expect Matt to trade his eye to a god in exchange for Wisdom and toss it into a well? No. Do

 

Well, you could stretch it and say that Moiraine represents wisdom, and therefore that part is still there. After all, it's probably not Moiraine's strength in the One Power that will make her crucial to TG, rather some knowledge she has gained.

[Rational_Solutions]

Ok so besides the connections Mat has to Odin. Is there any other basis, out side of interpreted dreams and visions, that Mat is going to lose his eye? I say that there isn't. Prove me wrong.

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... you just got what you asked for, and didn't like it, so you basically said "that one doesn't count". Thats hardly rational. Of course there's no indication outside of dreams and visions. If there were, they'd hardly need dreams and visions would they?

[gak]

i really hope mat dosnt lose and eye... but rj has just chopped of rands hand.... what is stopping him from taking mats eye?

[edman]

I think Mat would look cool with an eyepatch. Maybe it could be a red eye design and they could change their name to the Band of The Red Eye.

[Rational_Solutions]

LOL ... you just got what you asked for' date=' and didn't like it, so you basically said "that one doesn't count". Thats hardly rational. Of course there's no indication outside of dreams and visions. If there were, they'd hardly need dreams and visions would they?[/quote']

 

 

That isn't what i asked for though. You guys are pulling reference from an outside location not dealing with WoT or RJ. You are pulling from Nordic Mythology. Yes, RJ uses alot of Mythology and religious symbolism, but you can't define one story by another due to paralell conincidences or conections. True, there are parts that resemble other stories or characters, but no where in the book or from RJ himself is there any substantial evidence that Mat is going to lose his eye. Period.

[Guest Majsju]

That isn't what i asked for though. You guys are pulling reference from an outside location not dealing with WoT or RJ. You are pulling from Nordic Mythology. Yes, RJ uses alot of Mythology and religious symbolism, but you can't define one story by another due to paralell conincidences or conections. True, there are parts that resemble other stories or characters, but no where in the book or from RJ himself is there any substantial evidence that Mat is going to lose his eye. Period.

 

You're making the mistake of not connecting all the given hints. As individual hints they don't mean much, but there are so many that it's more than just likely that mat will lose an eye.

 

# Egwene's Dreams:

Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale

(In the same Dream she sees Mat, hanging by his neck from a tree limb, something that happened exactly the way she saw it)

 

Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled down low so she could not see his wound

Given the context, it's not hard to figure out where a wound covered by the brim of a hat would be

 

 

# Min's viewings:

MAT: A red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, a laughing face

Balance scales can be used when trading things

 

# The Aelfinn:

To give up half the light of the world to save the world.

 

# Odin:

RJ has confirmed that Odin is one of the sources of inspiration for Mat

 

# The Eelfinn

Mat figures out in KOD that the Eelfinn can see through his eyes somehow.

 

Put them all together, and it seems quite obvious what will happen.

[Luckers]

My, your an imperious person, arn't you. I think Robert has the right of you, you dislike the evidence so you dismiss it.

 

The reasons we believe are as stated, if they arn't enough for you, then don't believe, but dont treat the rest of us like idiots for not imediately falling in line.

 

Seriously. I'll tell on you to Mummy if you do.

 

*rolls eyes*

[MetalMonkeyMood]

That isn't what i asked for though. You guys are pulling reference from an outside location not dealing with WoT or RJ. You are pulling from Nordic Mythology. Yes' date=' RJ uses alot of Mythology and religious symbolism, but you can't define one story by another due to paralell conincidences or conections. True, there are parts that resemble other stories or characters, but no where in the book or from RJ himself is there any substantial evidence that Mat is going to lose his eye. Period.[/quote']

 

I've always felt that Rand and Mat are Tyr and Odin respectively, at least in the WOT world, and RJ has said (I believe) that he based his characters on the two of them. It's more than just parallel coincidences, Rand lost his hand just like Tyr did, and Mat losing an eye - like Odin - is not that far fetched, especially when you consider the other similarities:

- Mat was called "gambler" and "son of battles" by the aelfinn. Odin was known as "gambler" and "father of battles".

- Mat is a brilliant war general, one of Odin's domains is war

- Mat was hanged for knowledge coming from dead men, Odin was hanged to gain knowledge of death

- Odin has two ravens, thought and memory (Hugin and Munin). Mat's raven-engraved ashandarei has a poem speaking of thought and memory.

- Odin's hall of valhalla holds dead heroes waiting for them to return for the final battle, Mat blew the Horn of Valere and now when TG comes, he'll command dead heores to fight in the final battle.

 

Sure, the whole eye thing might be metaphorical but like Maj said, when you add everything up, and factor in the fact that RJ has no problems giving his heroes crippling injuries, it really does look like Mat will lose an eye, either on his way to the finns or as a bargaining chip to get Moriraine back.

[RobertAlexWillis]

According to the theory of the Wheel, as Jordan has explained it, the occurrences of past Ages form the legends and myths of current ones. So there is deliberate, conscious use of our mythology. We see evidence of that in the stories Egwene asks Thom for, way back in the Eye of the World. "Lenn" flying "to the moon in the belly of a giant eagle". John Glenn was the first to orbit the earth, and the landing capsule for the first lunar landing was called eagle. "Salya walking among the stars". Sally Ride was the first female astronaut. "Alsbet, the Queen of All". Elizabeth ruled the British Empire. "Materese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind". Mother Teresa, did her work in India.

 

Corrupted forms of modern events form the basis for their most ancient legends. So it is reasonable to extrapolate that Jordan made sure our legends were applicable, in corrupted form, to the events of the story. Not just Nordic myths, although those are obviously present. There are references to Arthurian legend (the Sword in the Stone, among multiple others) vague christian references, vague Hindu references, and others. The existence of that internal evidence, in combination with the dreams of Egwene and Aelfinn answers, make it a pretty solid circumstantial case. The only ironclad evidence in the literary sense can occur only when Jordan writes out the fulfillment of the prophecy. If you want that kind of proof, then it was pointless to ask for it here, you'll just have to wait until he publishes it.

[Marrow Rahien]

MetalMonkeyMood Said

- Mat is a brilliant war general, one of Odin's domains is war

 

 

Let's be fair, as a Norse God your domain is always War & _____.

 

Jemimah, the Goddess of War and Pancakes for example.

[Rational_Solutions]

I have been proven wrong.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

MetalMonkeyMood Said

- Mat is a brilliant war general' date=' one of Odin's domains is war[/color']

 

 

Let's be fair, as a Norse God your domain is always War & _____.

 

Jemimah, the Goddess of War and Pancakes for example.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: All hail Jemimah!

[ekstrom]

i'm not so sure he will loose a eye, he might gamble with it yes, but i think we will just have to wait and see

[Jeppit Groccin]

I think he will end up losing an eye. All of the prochecies and dreams so far are pointiong straight at that fact. I can see him gambling with it, with Mat believing in his luck and not too worried about losing his eye. Then he loses.

 

I think it would teach him a lesson in humility.

[details]

I figure I'm gonna get gonged for this immediately, but everytime there's a reference to Mat's soon-to-be-cycloptic condition, I think these two things:

 

1. In these prophecies/dreams/whatevers, Mat is represented by one eye, because of the one-eyed fox medallion he wears (you know, the one that protects him from saidar/saidin flows). So, for example, when it talks about "one eye balanced on the scale" or whatever the reference is, I figure that's a reference to Mat himself being on the scale, or putting himself up for a wager. Maybe sacrificing himself for something.

 

Or,

 

2. Mat will be forced to wager something he holds dear, and he'll put up the one-eyed fox medallion. So, in the same one eye on the scale hypo, Mat's medallion is being wagered against something.

 

Either way, in my theories, he doesn't literally lose his eye. Instead, he either loses the medallion (and maybe his memory, which makes him the great general that he is), and deals with all those problems, or loses his personal wager, like...maybe he sacrifices himself, or something. I think he'd do it.

 

As for that "half the light of the world to save the world" talk, I always figured he'd introduce the world to gunpowder, and the weapons that use it, thus clouding the world in turmoil and war...or, to be poetic, extinguishing the world's innocence/light. LoL. That's what I always thought, anyway. So, the references are all figurative speech for me...but then again, I didn't even realize that Mat's character was inspired by Odin. LoL.

[Luckers]

It seems somewhat odd to me that Mat will remove one eye to stop the Finns from knowing what he is up to. all his memories have been with both eyes, and more then that, hearing and smell and the other senses as well. Why would he think that removing one eye would help?

 

My suspicion is that he does in fact trade it for Moiraines release... or perhaps bet it. I doubt he is going to lose it in an accident... the wording of 'give up' half the light of the world strikes me as intentional.

[okstate91]

this is an amazing thread. Ive learned mor about wot from this thread than actually readin the books

[DemandredFO]

From the clues pointed out in this thread I can see now that Mat is Odin and that he will lose an eye. I would like Mat to remain two-eyed but it's the storyteller. I learned much about Tyr and Odin and I have a question does that mean Perrin is Thor because of the Hammer and is a good Battle Leader.