Did Robert Jordan base the Black Tower on the Waffen SS?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I always saw a very heavy resemblance between the two. Furthermore I don't think it's a coincidence, since RJ was an expert on WW2. Having an interest in that era.

 

I base my claim on the following;

 

1) The uniform - pure black uniform. This uniform is then further supplemented with two silver pins on the neck collar. A high neck collar. This is similar if not the same as the Waffen SS attire of a pure black uniform with twin silver pins at the neck.

 

2) The name - Asha'man translates into "defender/guardian." Schutzstaffel = "guardians." Staffel has no direct English translation in this context, it means as much as "series."

 

3) The purpose - Both served as the private army of a conqueror hellbent on overthrowing and taking over neighboring nations. The Asha'men and the Waffen SS have a similarity in that they were both created to be a weapon with no mercy, to be pointed where the leader sees fit.

 

4) The ranks - Attack Leader and Storm Leader. Seriously? That is almost taken word for word from the Waffen SS ranks of Sturmführer (stormleader) and Scharführer. I mean doesn't leave too much to the imagination there.

 

5) Behavior - Both were newly established orders who borrowed heavily on past symbolism and language. Both institutions breed arrogance and self-importance to a fault. Not to mention the building of the Black Tower is somewhat comparable to the projects around the castle Wewelsburg, the projected home base of the SS that was never completed.

 

6) Army recruitment - Both were pan-national armies. The Waffen SS had volunteers from Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Belgium, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, France, Hungary, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Ukraine, Cossacks, etc.. The Black Tower likewise is pan-national in its recruitment. Taking men from all nations to serve their leader and purpose.

 

7) Children - A point is made of the use of children in the forces. Not sure if it an analogy, but it is also curious how repeatedly others express disgust at seeing "so young Asha'men." The Waffen SS was also infamous for the amount of 16-17 year olds in its ranks. By 1944 the average age of a Waffen SS soldier was 19, due to the huge amount of 15-19 year olds in their ranks. Which is always odd how in action movies all SS soldiers seem to be 30+, when in truth most should be portrayed by 16-17 year olds.

 

8) Training - Another similarity seems to be the toughness in training. In WW2 no other organization had so many training deaths or suicides as the Waffen SS. RJ similarly puts the BT in a similar light, always making a point of how the BT takes constant losses due to the merciless training its recruits face.

 

 

 

 

Some of the above seem a stretch. Is there anyone that disagrees with any of the above? They are after all just personal observations of mine. Or did I miss any other similarities between the two institutions?

[cortezthekiller]

Well, I gotta hand it to ya, I was skeptical in the other thread about the Seanchan, but you make a pretty good case.

[Duskfire]

Taim also seems to be quite decent at propaganda.

 

Asha`man are definetly loosely based on the SS, although I don't think the Blacktower as a whole is as bad, and going by the different factions sprouting up not as fanatical either. Wouldn't surprise me if Taim himself has similarities with one of Hitlers Henchmen, although I don't know enough about them to know which one or even if that were true.

[Vassili]

You do make a good case, but if so, why did RJ draw on the SS, one of the most evil organizations of all time, to create the Black Tower, an organization meant to fight the Shadow and usher in a new age? It just seems contradictory.

[cortezthekiller]

You do make a good case, but if so, why did RJ draw on the SS, one of the most evil organizations of all time, to create the Black Tower, an organization meant to fight the Shadow and usher in a new age? It just seems contradictory.

 

That is what made me skeptical, but I think the basis (if there is one) would have been grounded more in appearance and structure than ideology.  I mean, of course the Black Tower isn't committing genocide...

 

Evil they may have been (who can disagree with that?), the SS were, and still are, a very powerful image.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

Well, one difference is that the Asha'man can channel ...  :P

 

That was, of course, tongue in cheek ... there are many similarities, as there would be in any war-time paramilitary organization.  Points number 3, 5, 6, and 7 especially can apply to many organizations besides the SS.  The others (things like the uniforms, names, etc.) are not inherently evil, they are images meant to project power, so a certain similarity is, again, unsurprising. 

 

It does seem unlikely that Jordan would have been unaware of the potential similarities: how deliberate he was in creating those similarities or what purpose they might serve (if deliberate) is debatable.

[yoniy0]

I too weren't convinced when I read the theory on the Seanchan-US thread, but I can't ignore the evidence you present. I don't think we can chalk that down to coincidence, it's quite overwhelming.

 

of course the Black Tower isn't committing genocide...

They may yet commit xenocide (is that even a word?), but trollocs don't get any sympathy from me :)

[JenniferL]

Linda Taglieri agrees with you.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/shadows-influence-on-black-tower.html#nazism

[farthammer]

I wouldn't dismiss your comparisons as incorrect, except to say that not even the SS is the originator or a unique example of these traits or their combinations.  They are a very well known example, though.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Well, one difference is that the Asha'man can channel ...  :P

 

That was, of course, tongue in cheek ... there are many similarities, as there would be in any war-time paramilitary organization.  Points number 3, 5, 6, and 7 especially can apply to many organizations besides the SS.  The others (things like the uniforms, names, etc.) are not inherently evil, they are images meant to project power, so a certain similarity is, again, unsurprising. 

 

It does seem unlikely that Jordan would have been unaware of the potential similarities: how deliberate he was in creating those similarities or what purpose they might serve (if deliberate) is debatable.

 

As far as I am aware the Waffen SS were the only pan-national army of WW2. An army whose loyalty is to no nation but to a single political party or leader. Even today I believe only the UN Army exists that could be described as similar. Feel free to correct me though?

 

As for point 7. You are aware of another army dressing exclusively in black, which contained many 15-16 year olds in its ranks?

 

As for point 5. Another army that made grand schemes of a huge pantheon like memorial complex to house it's new facilities? Facilities whose purpose were to show grandeur as much as awe the eye at the mere sight? Such as the SS at Wewelsburg and the Asha'men with the black tower complex/palace? Please link me to one.

 

I'll concede you point 3 though.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I wouldn't dismiss your comparisons as incorrect, except to say that not even the SS is the originator or a unique example of these traits or their combinations.  They are a very well known example, though.

 

You know of another pan-national army, dressed entirely in black with silver pins on their high neck collars, using the ranks of "storm leader" and "attack leader," obsessed with using names/designations of the past, whose name translates into "guardians," and whose training was infamous for the losses incurred? Please do tell me which other army or institution fits these traits.

 

The only reason I mentioned the Waffen SS was since they fit all.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

You do make a good case, but if so, why did RJ draw on the SS, one of the most evil organizations of all time, to create the Black Tower, an organization meant to fight the Shadow and usher in a new age? It just seems contradictory.

 

 

Waffen SS. Not the contemporary SS. Two completely separate and different institutions. One was the political and the other the military wing.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

You do make a good case, but if so, why did RJ draw on the SS, one of the most evil organizations of all time, to create the Black Tower, an organization meant to fight the Shadow and usher in a new age? It just seems contradictory.

 

That is what made me skeptical, but I think the basis (if there is one) would have been grounded more in appearance and structure than ideology.  I mean, of course the Black Tower isn't committing genocide...

 

Evil they may have been (who can disagree with that?), the SS were, and still are, a very powerful image.

 

The Waffen SS did not commit genocide either? The Waffen SS was the military wing. It had no direct involvement in the holocaust. It merely had some shooting of prisoners of wars and massacres of civilians on it's rap sheet due to mercy not being one of their strongpoints. But then again so did every other army, including the US army (the Waffen SS just had a few more).

 

The holocaust was the "allgemeine" SS or contemporary SS. A different organization. Nothing to do with the Waffen SS, who I am basing this thread on.

 

 

[farthammer]

Ok, I'm not going to edit it to disrupt your chain posting here but a misabbreviation doesn't change my point.

[cortezthekiller]

You do make a good case, but if so, why did RJ draw on the SS, one of the most evil organizations of all time, to create the Black Tower, an organization meant to fight the Shadow and usher in a new age? It just seems contradictory.

 

That is what made me skeptical, but I think the basis (if there is one) would have been grounded more in appearance and structure than ideology.  I mean, of course the Black Tower isn't committing genocide...

 

Evil they may have been (who can disagree with that?), the SS were, and still are, a very powerful image.

 

The Waffen SS did not commit genocide either? The Waffen SS was the military wing. It had no direct involvement in the holocaust. It merely had some shooting of prisoners of wars and massacres of civilians on it's rap sheet due to mercy not being one of their strongpoints. But then again so did every other army, including the US army (the Waffen SS just had a few more).

 

The holocaust was the "allgemeine" SS or contemporary SS. A different organization. Nothing to do with the Waffen SS, who I am basing this thread on.

 

 

Granted.  I'm not going to further slide this thread into a historical/political discussion, however, if the phrase "guilty by association" was ever acceptable, I think the Waffen SS would qualify.

 

You've actually kind of convinced me, you made some good points, and I can see the similarities.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Ok, I'm not going to edit it to disrupt your chain posting here but a misabbreviation doesn't change my point.

 

So you chalk up all the similarities to coincidence? Even using the ranks of the Waffen SS in the BT infrastructure?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

You do make a good case, but if so, why did RJ draw on the SS, one of the most evil organizations of all time, to create the Black Tower, an organization meant to fight the Shadow and usher in a new age? It just seems contradictory.

 

That is what made me skeptical, but I think the basis (if there is one) would have been grounded more in appearance and structure than ideology.  I mean, of course the Black Tower isn't committing genocide...

 

Evil they may have been (who can disagree with that?), the SS were, and still are, a very powerful image.

 

The Waffen SS did not commit genocide either? The Waffen SS was the military wing. It had no direct involvement in the holocaust. It merely had some shooting of prisoners of wars and massacres of civilians on it's rap sheet due to mercy not being one of their strongpoints. But then again so did every other army, including the US army (the Waffen SS just had a few more).

 

The holocaust was the "allgemeine" SS or contemporary SS. A different organization. Nothing to do with the Waffen SS, who I am basing this thread on.

 

 

Granted.  I'm not going to further slide this thread into a historical/political discussion, however, if the phrase "guilty by association" was ever acceptable, I think the Waffen SS would qualify.

 

You've actually kind of convinced me, you made some good points, and I can see the similarities.

 

Guilt by association is why the Waffen SS got declared a criminal organization. Which caused outrage in the American and British "military" circles, who saw this designation as the result of politicians without a clue being at work. General Patton threw a 4 hour fit when he heard of it. For many Generals and Officers the view was that the Waffen SS was simply an army like any other; since it had no role in the death camps or the einsatzgruppen it was a mistake to lob them into the same bucket as the "allgemeine SS." 

 

Either way this is getting off topic. My bad. My point is the Waffen SS were soldiers like the Asha'men aim to be, not guards at camps. Hence a fitting comparison as an institution.

[farthammer]

Ok, I'm not going to edit it to disrupt your chain posting here but a misabbreviation doesn't change my point.

 

So you chalk up all the similarities to coincidence? Even using the ranks of the Waffen SS in the BT infrastructure?

 

Well not quite like that.  Before I answer so that I am not misunderstanding you here, are you simply having some fun drawing real world comparisons with things the story.  Or are you implying that RJ specifically meant to draw these comparisons?  For example I can go over to theoryland dot com and read pretty good comparisons, but somewhere along the way of turning all that it into a theory, the assumption that the WoT content rests exclusively on that one comparison is inserted and it is what turns people like Terez over their to dragonmount sized ****tards.  Because they never bother to demonstrate why that assumption is true, or even acknowledge it was made.

[cortezthekiller]

Either way this is getting off topic. My bad. My point is the Waffen SS were soldiers like the Asha'men aim to be, not guards at camps. Hence a fitting comparison as an institution.

 

Agreed.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Ok, I'm not going to edit it to disrupt your chain posting here but a misabbreviation doesn't change my point.

 

So you chalk up all the similarities to coincidence? Even using the ranks of the Waffen SS in the BT infrastructure?

 

Well not quite like that.  Before I answer so that I am not misunderstanding you here, are you simply having some fun drawing real world comparisons with things the story.  Or are you implying that RJ specifically meant to draw these comparisons?  For example I can go over to theoryland dot com and read pretty good comparisons, but somewhere along the way of turning all that it into a theory, the assumption that the WoT content rests exclusively on that one comparison is inserted and it is what turns people like Terez over their to dragonmount sized ****tards.  Because they never bother to demonstrate why that assumption is true, or even acknowledge it was made.

 

RJ stated in an interview that some of the Forsaken personalities are based off of figures in the Third Reich. RJ went on to say how WW2 was a matter of interest for him.

 

So it's not too much of a stretch is it?

[farthammer]

1) The uniform - pure black uniform. This uniform is then further supplemented with two silver pins on the neck collar. A high neck collar. This is similar if not the same as the Waffen SS attire of a pure black uniform with twin silver pins at the neck.

 

1) I don't know this person.  He is wearing a US Marine Corps uniform that has been in use with few changes since the 19th century:

 

 

2) The name - Asha'man translates into "defender/guardian." Schutzstaffel = "guardians." Staffel has no direct English translation in this context, it means as much as "series."

 

Or maybe he meant.. A Shaman?  Seriously though, the words defender and guardian are so overused when you begin talking about even joke militia organizations that I can't see why this is evidence for anything?  Just start typing into google, there's just too much of it to pinpoint it on anything.  Oh I suppose I could just keep going with the USMC here, this branch of the military was established to defend ships at sea (18th Century).  It's actually still a department of the US Navy. So check got defender.

 

3) The purpose - Both served as the private army of a conqueror hellbent on overthrowing and taking over neighboring nations. The Asha'men and the Waffen SS have a similarity in that they were both created to be a weapon with no mercy, to be pointed where the leader sees fit.

 

Right, (para)military organizations.  I think you wanted to draw attention to the fact it is not a traditional, modern type military in terms of origin?  Otherwise you will have to tell me more here.  At any rate the USMC was actually established before the Declaration of Independence was written.  Later of course when the US became a more widely recognized independent country, it simply became a part of the US military in a more traditional sense.

 

4) The ranks - Attack Leader and Storm Leader. Seriously? That is almost taken word for word from the Waffen SS ranks of Sturmführer (stormleader) and Scharführer. I mean doesn't leave too much to the imagination there.

 

Alright man I'm really trying here, but seriously attack, leader, storm are again words that are used extensively in reference to these sorts of organizations.  You'll have to narrow it down for me if you want a difference answer.  So there is some ambiguity.  Here's an interesting tidbit, during WWI Germany used the term 'Storm Trooper' to describe the USMC at the Battle of Belleau wood.  In this case the term was used as a scale indicating the highest quality.  Again this was well before the Waffen-SS unless they had some extensive secret history I am not aware of?

 

5) Behavior - Both were newly established orders who borrowed heavily on past symbolism and language. Both institutions breed arrogance and self-importance to a fault. Not to mention the building of the Black Tower is somewhat comparable to the projects around the castle Wewelsburg, the projected home base of the SS that was never completed.

 

Behavior inherent to all (para)military organizations.  I truly think the black tower bit exists only because it happened to be the opposite of the white tower.  Maybe I will look later and see if there is anything but doesn't seem important.

 

6) Army recruitment - Both were pan-national armies. The Waffen SS had volunteers from Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Belgium, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, France, Hungary, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Ukraine, Cossacks, etc.. The Black Tower likewise is pan-national in its recruitment. Taking men from all nations to serve their leader and purpose.

 

More of the same, this seems to be a point that is largely driven by largely practical reasons and different ones at that.  At the same time both the Asha'man and the USMC were forced to recruit from immigrants, foreigners, non citizens, simply because they were new and there were no sort of national boundaries within which they had to choose from.  Correct me if I am wrong but the impression I get is that the Waffen-SS was able to piggy back in some ways on the German military but wanted to get away from that and some of the restrictions that imposed.  I think this is probably kind of a hairy topic to argue in general.  I think I have either misunderstood you or I am misunderstanding some of the history here.

 

7) Children - A point is made of the use of children in the forces. Not sure if it an analogy, but it is also curious how repeatedly others express disgust at seeing "so young Asha'men." The Waffen SS was also infamous for the amount of 16-17 year olds in its ranks. By 1944 the average age of a Waffen SS soldier was 19, due to the huge amount of 15-19 year olds in their ranks. Which is always odd how in action movies all SS soldiers seem to be 30+, when in truth most should be portrayed by 16-17 year olds.

 

Very true of most military organizations, again.  It really is pretty weird looking at how young some of the faces are especially in the direction of front line troops.

 

Any way I did not have the USMC originally in mind here but your point about uniforms made me think of it because it is a pretty recognizable one (at least in the US).

 

So it's not too much of a stretch is it?

 

No actually I think you forgot I first said you were not incorrect actually but I think it's important to not stop there and keep going backwards.  I think he is pulling things out of history and even if some of these comparisons seem like dead ringers for what's in the book, he's also including things farther back that have been forgotten (as the little catechism or whatever goes in the opening of the WoT books).

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

1) I don't know this person.  He is wearing a US Marine Corps uniform that has been in use with few changes since the 19th century:

 

 

That's dark blue, not black. :/  Also a lack of silver pins on the collar.

 

 

Or maybe he meant.. A Shaman?  Seriously though, the words defender and guardian are so overused when you begin talking about even joke militia organizations that I can't see why this is evidence for anything?  Just start typing into google, there's just too much of it to pinpoint it on anything.  Oh I suppose I could just keep going with the USMC here, this branch of the military was established to defend ships at sea (18th Century).  It's actually still a department of the US Navy. So check got defender.

 

Where in the abbreviation of US Navy does it state the word "defender" or "guardian?" It is an action they do, however not in the name. Likewise name me a few armies with the word "guardian" in their name? Only one I can think of is the Schutzstaffel. Which blatantly has the word "guardian" in the name. Feel free to name me a few more examples of other armies with the word "guardian" in the name though?

 

 

 

Right, (para)military organizations.  I think you wanted to draw attention to the fact it is not a traditional, modern type military in terms of origin?  Otherwise you will have to tell me more here.  At any rate the USMC was actually established before the Declaration of Independence was written.  Later of course when the US became a more widely recognized independent country, it simply became a part of the US military in a more traditional sense.

 

 

Yeah. But the USMC was there to serve the provisional government, even before it became official. My point is more that both the Asha'men and Waffen SS are private armies designed purely to serve the needs and wants of a single leader.

 

 

Alright man I'm really trying here, but seriously attack, leader, storm are again words that are used extensively in reference to these sorts of organizations.  You'll have to narrow it down for me if you want a difference answer.  So there is some ambiguity.  Here's an interesting tidbit, during WWI Germany used the term 'Storm Trooper' to describe the USMC at the Battle of Belleau wood.  In this case the term was used as a scale indicating the highest quality.  Again this was well before the Waffen-SS unless they had some extensive secret history I am not aware of?

 

Storm trooper fits into this analogy how? Also my point is that the ranks are taken by the very word. It is a 100% translation. These ranks of "Attack Leader" and "Storm Leader" also did not exist in any other German military or paramilitary organization. Neither in the Heer, Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe, SA, Volkssturm or contemporary SS. Only in the Waffen SS.

 

Furthermore google does not show me any other military with the ranks of "Attack Leader" or "Storm Leader," other than the Waffen SS.

 

 

 

 

More of the same, this seems to be a point that is largely driven by largely practical reasons and different ones at that.  At the same time both the Asha'man and the USMC were forced to recruit from immigrants, foreigners, non citizens, simply because they were new and there were no sort of national boundaries within which they had to choose from.  Correct me if I am wrong but the impression I get is that the Waffen-SS was able to piggy back in some ways on the German military but wanted to get away from that and some of the restrictions that imposed.  I think this is probably kind of a hairy topic to argue in general.  I think I have either misunderstood you or I am misunderstanding some of the history here.

 

There is the fine but fundamental difference. A foreigner who goes to serve in the US military is swearing loyalty to the US state and to America. This was not the case with the Waffen SS. The Waffen SS was loyal to the NSDAP and most of all to the Führer.

 

In short. The Waffen SS swore loyalty strictly to the Führer. The Wehrmacht swore loyalty to the German government and Constitution. Part of the reason the Waffen SS was formed, was that Hitler started to distrust the Wehrmacht. Since they were loyal to whichever party ruled the Reichstag, not to him personally.

 

Furthermore the Waffen SS were pan-national because they were not loyal to a single nation. An Estonian Waffen SS recruit did not swear loyalty to Germany. A mexican immigrant going into the US army would swear loyalty to the US. So this is a large difference. An Estonian Waffen SS recruit swore loyalty solely to the Führer.

 

 

 

Very true of most military organizations, again.  It really is pretty weird looking at how young some of the faces are especially in the direction of front line troops.

 

Any way I did not have the USMC originally in mind here but your point about uniforms made me think of it because it is a pretty recognizable one (at least in the US).

 

 

Yeah. But again I think we're talking besides eachother. The Hitler Youth was infamous. To sort of show case in point;

 

http://img838.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=19yrjty.jpg

 

Often the most determined resistance encountered by Commonwealth and US troops in the last months of the war came from groups of Hitler Youth. These 14-15-year-olds were captured near Munster at the beginning of April 1945. According to the original caption, they only surrendered after using up their ammunition, and remained 'arrogant'.

 

had deliberately allowed a tank to roll right over the foxhole before firing a Panzerfaust vertically into it. The explosion had destroyed the tank, but killed the youth in the process. The Russian tank crews had learned that even Hitler Youths apparently lying dead on the street or in trenches could suddenly come to life and attack them.

 

Hitler Youth military exploits in Berlin -- and indeed throughout Germany -- have been highly publicized, overshadowing the fact that they were only a fraction of the capital's substantial Volkssturm contingent. The fanatic HJ defense of the Pickelsdorfer bridges over the Havel did delay Soviet encirclement of the city for two days

 

HJ bands proved to be flexible and fleet-footed. Especially for the younger ones, it was like playing cops and robbers, as they moved around in underground passageways and subway tunnels, hid behind ruins, and lay in wait in basements, cellars, and bombed-out shops. Their specialty was holding still until a tank was only a few yards away and then hurling their grenades. Some would lie on the sidewalk playing dead until a tank arrived, and then they would fire. As the Russians became more ubiquitous, engaging in house-to-house combat with soldiers, Hitler Youths jumped onto rooftops, sneaking up behind Red Army snipers and pushing them into the street.

 

 

Kind of my point. There is a precedent for use of children, as the Hitlerjugend shows. One that I cannot really find in any other recent famous military.

 

 

No actually I think you forgot I first said you were not incorrect actually but I think it's important to not stop there and keep going backwards.  I think he is pulling things out of history and even if some of these comparisons seem like dead ringers for what's in the book, he's also including things farther back that have been forgotten (as the little catechism or whatever goes in the opening of the WoT books).

 

Fair enough.

[farthammer]

{quote]That's dark blue, not black. :/  Also a lack of silver pins on the collar.

 

No it's black despite the name.  Officer pins on the collar are largely silver, they have a small amount of pale gold detailing on some of the symbol.  Heh :/

 

Where in the abbreviation of US Navy does it state the word "defender" or "guardian?" It is an action they do, however not in the name. Likewise name me a few armies with the word "guardian" in their name? Only one I can think of is the Schutzstaffel. Which blatantly has the word "guardian" in the name. Feel free to name me a few more examples of other armies with the word "guardian" in the name though?

 

In the Navy?  Probably tons of places, I was not referring to the Navy in this case.  The reason I did not give a lot of examples is just due to the volume of those sorts of references.  So you want guardian and not defender?  Or do you want both of them at the same time?  In fact before I do list them you may want to make sure you have your interpretations correct because I am seeing Schutzstaffel when referenced in the context of the Waffen-SS, interpreted as "Protective Squadron".  So ..what's the deal with that?  I don't think you could rely on the name as a major point until that's resolved.

 

Actually I think I will stop there.  I don't have any problem being extremely anal about cases where the right word or term is important.  It's tedious, it's very boring, but I dunno even know how well you researched your original comparison now.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

{quote]That's dark blue, not black. :/   Also a lack of silver pins on the collar.

 

No it's black despite the name.  Officer pins on the collar are largely silver, they have a small amount of pale gold detailing on some of the symbol.  Heh :/

 

Where in the abbreviation of US Navy does it state the word "defender" or "guardian?" It is an action they do, however not in the name. Likewise name me a few armies with the word "guardian" in their name? Only one I can think of is the Schutzstaffel. Which blatantly has the word "guardian" in the name. Feel free to name me a few more examples of other armies with the word "guardian" in the name though?

 

In the Navy?  Probably tons of places, I was not referring to the Navy in this case.  The reason I did not give a lot of examples is just due to the volume of those sorts of references.  So you want guardian and not defender?  Or do you want both of them at the same time?  In fact before I do list them you may want to make sure you have your interpretations correct because I am seeing Schutzstaffel when referenced in the context of the Waffen-SS, interpreted as "Protective Squadron".  So ..what's the deal with that?  I don't think you could rely on the name as a major point until that's resolved.

 

Actually I think I will stop there.  I don't have any problem being extremely anal about cases where the right word or term is important.  It's tedious, it's very boring, but I dunno even know how well you researched your original comparison now.

 

Really, where is it interpreted to be "protective squadron?" I'm fluent in German due to the fact that I am German and live in Germany. Schutz has no direct English translation, it can either mean "to guard," "to protect," "to conserve," "to prevent," "to shelter," "to cover" or "to defend." It also can mean asylum or custody. Depending on the context you wish to put it in.

 

But in the context of the 1.SS Leistandarte Hitler it is apparent they are deemed the new praetorian guard of the Third Reich. Likewise with all following Waffen SS divisions. So "Guard" or "Guardian" seems the most apt choice. But you can use "protect." It's close enough, it's certainly not wrong. However in every day German if I say "brauchst du ein Beschützer?" This would mean "do you need a guardian?"

 

Likewise "Staffel" is a bitch of a word to translate into English. Since the closest proper translation would be "echelon." But "guardian echelon?!" Kind of hard to use that. Therefore many sites tend to use "protective squadron," since it's a loose and liberal translation, but it best conveys their purpose and meaning for an English speaker.

 

It's the same reason why "Siegheil" is translated into "Hail victory" or "hail to victory," when in truth it's most accurate translation should be "victoryhail." But this makes less sense in English, since it would imply victorious ice precipitation. So at some point you need to find a compromise between accuracy and intelligibility.

[farthammer]

Honestly I went to wikipedia, I know it's not a scholarly source, but the articles on this topic are probably in the top 99th percentile in terms of size over there.  That's about as thick as I felt like skimming, and that's where I kept seeing protective squadron.  I put it in lower case for now, because wiki actually puts it in capitals between quotes like it's a proper noun.  Also I think it's easy to get sucked into these sorts of details and figured I'd just end it because you probably do have a better fit with your Waffen-SS comparison.  I got carried away myself cause I really only said these types of details I think do in fact come up quite a bit.  Perhaps it's better to think of the Asha'man as the next step or permutation of a line of somewhat sinister paramilities of which the Waffen-SS was the prior?