Aiel Saying?

[edman]

Can any one tell me if the Aiel have a saying along the lines of "only the grave is my call"? I can't even remember if this saying is in the Wheel of Time series but it seems like it would belong to the Aiel.

[Angel of Death]

i think it might be 'the grave is no bar to my call'. I also think it might be a borderland saying - specificlly Shiener. But dont take my word for it.

[edman]

Yes! That's it! Thanks a lot. It's been driving me crazy trying to remember it.

[keravon3]

the saying is 'the grave is no bar to my call' and i also belive that it was inscribed on the side of the horn of valeer(sorry for incorect spelling)

[edman]

I forgot that it was on the horn. It's been so long since I've read the beginning books. Thanx a lot. :D

[Kaznen]

"'Fore the last lorn fight, 'Fore the dying of the light/The Grave is no bar to my call" Is the complete phrase from the song of the horn. It's not a borderland saying. They say "Peace (whatever)" and the buriel rights in Shinar are "May you enter the Mother's last embrace" or something like that when they are buried naked.

[Luckers]

Actually its...

 

In the last lorn fight,

'gainst the fall of long night,

the mountains stand guard,

and the dead shall be ward.

For the grave is no bar to my call.

 

And on the horn itself it says tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin... which Loial translates to be 'the grave is no bar to my call'

 

The borderlander saying, in addition to what Kadzen wrote, is 'may peace favour your sword [or you]'

[Guest cwestervelt]

Notice the capital "M" on Moridin in that inscription? Based on later books, it should translate to "Death is no bar to my call" not "The grave is no bar to my call." There is a remote possibility that Loial, and countless others throughout the 3rd age, have been making a slight, though important, translation error.

 

That capital changes the word from just being a just a noun to a name. Admittedly, I'm using English grammer rules, but exerpts of the Old Tongue appear to follow the same capitalization rules. Maybe, even translated, the last line of the poem should actually read "For Moridin is no bar to my call."

[Kaznen]

Thank you for the correction, Luckers. At least I assume you're correcting me. Maybe this Kadzen fellow made a shadow post I can't see. :P

[Luckers]

lol... what are you talking about. Clearly i said Kaznen. Sheesh.

 

heh. :oops:

 

Its a good point cwestervelt... but it seems a tad obscure... especially given that death is a barrier that the horn must overcome, and i dont see how Moridin would at any stage be an obstacle in that... certainly not one so large and specific that the makers felt the need to gloat about it.

 

Remember too that many culture personify Death. We ourselves do, and speak of it with the capitalization.

 

Finally, on the specific nature of the translation. The old tongue is hard to translate because concepts are not seperated linguistically--as far as i can tell. The word Moridin likely means the reality of death in its entirety. Grave, contextually, fits there quite well. Its a matter of whats altered in the translation, one word in one language will not have an equal and exact word in another.

[Guest cwestervelt]

It's obscure yes and that is why I said it was a remote possibility. It is that very obscurity that made me comment on it. One of the things I have noticed about the The Wheel of Time is that the obscure is often very important. From the beginning, Ishamael/Ba'alzamon/Moridin has tried to personify himself as Death Incarnate. Writing it off as a freak coincidence doesn't really fit in a setting where coincidence doesn't appear to exist.

[Luckers]

True, and there is the fact that the fight between Rand and ba'alzamon was closely linked with the use of the horn, which may suggest some sort of bond, or the very least something the horns makes might have been able to foretell or dream...

 

But on the other hand maybe we are giving RJ too much credit. :)

[Slothman]

is that even possible?

[edman]

Isn't the Old Tongue rather ambiguous?

[kittydesmond]

Yeah, Personally untill I own an "Old tongue dictionary" I just dont know to many words left out!!!!! :shock:

[kittydesmond]

*too

[Jonn]

I think that Moridin is a name for death. In western culture death is often represented by an actual figure, the Grim Reaper, who personifies death. The word Moridin may represent a similar concept in which death is a singular force that exists to take souls to the afterlife.

 

Also, we do not know the nuances of the grammar structures of Old Tongue. For all we know, the words translate into someothing along the lines of,

 

[My call, by the halls of Death, cannot be stopped]

 

I don't know that this is the direct translation, but neither can we really always translate things into English as if it'll be perfectly understandable.

[Luckers]

From the old tongue dictionary.

 

Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin = The grave is no bar to my call

Probably literally "To my call, Death isn't bar". "Tia" means "to", "mi" means "my", "aven" is "call", "Moridin" means "Death", "isainde" means "isn't", and "vadin" is "bar" or "barrier". This phrase is from tEotW and is not in the standard word order. In the *Pred-Verb-Subj* order, this would read "To my call, Bar isn't death". However, this is obviously wrong because Mr. Jordan himself has said "Moridin" is "Death". Thus "vadin" has to mean "bar". If correct, the sentence would be "Tia mi aven vadin isainde Moridin".

[keravon3]

hear is a rather up to date old tougue dictionary

 

http://www.drosi.de/wot/wt_tongu.htm