Aes Sedai self defense from the Seanchan and the Three Oaths.

[NoGuessing]

In the Seanchan thread in structured discussion,it was asked whether defending ones self from being made damane by killing the Seachan is a violation of the three oaths.

 

My argument is no. Lives can be in danger in more ways than death. Being made into Damane is the same as dying. Damane retain nothing of their former selves at the end, they're Tessi or whoever and are brainwashed. In my opinion, the enforced slavery and brainwashing threatens the very existence of Aes Sedai. If they're made Damane, the Aes Sedai die out. If you lose your humanity, you lose your life. Damane become pets, they aren't seen as people. They don't even see themselves as people.

 

On the other hand, they obviously aren't Shadowspawn. Now in the raid on the tower I suspect that not all of the Seanchan soldiers and Damane were killed by Warders or Egwene, nor were they all killed indirectly by shooting down To'raken. No Aes Sedai were struck dead so the Three Oaths seem to agree.

 

The obvious move would be to modify the Three Oaths of course. But as they currently stand, what do you think? Were the Oaths violated? 

[Fedaykin]

I agree with you that using the One Power as a weapon against Seanchan to prevent being made damane doesn't violate the Three Oaths. While they might not kill you, your life will end if made damane. Just as you say, they will break the leashed Aes Sedai. That Aes Sedai would cess to exist and a new damane would take its place.

[Elder haman]

Also keep in mind that they dont actually have to be in danger, they just have to think they are.

 

So if, say, the White Tower was being attacked and blown to pieces by damane wielding the OP, Aes Sedai would be free to fight back because they would feel danger from explosions and what not.

 

In addition, everyone in Randland thinks that raken are Shadowspawn when they first see them. So in this way AS would also be able to fight.

 

Most AS still havent seen Seanchan personally, so in the event of a Seanchan attack they probably wouldnt make the immediate connection to being leashed as opposed to being killed because they wouldn't recognize the attackers as Seanchan.

 

The above point about the name changes is very important to. If Teslyn gets captured she becomes Tessi and traces of Teslyn are erased (can't remember the name of Tuon's damane (Mylen maybe?) who had been AS, but its clear that person no longer exists). This could be construed as the AS's life in danger.

 

In short, I don't think AS are going to be stopped by the Oaths from defending themselves against Seanchan.

 

 

[Elder haman]

Sorry for the double post but I just had a brainwave,

 

AS know by now what the Seanchan do to women who can channel. They also know that the Seanchan mean to conquer Randland and leash every marath damane they can find. If we take being leashed as one's life being in danger, which seems to be the case since we've seen AS fighting Seanchan, what about war on the Seanchan in general, even in attack.

 

Could AS attack Seanchan even if they werent attacked first? The AS would know in her mind that every action against the Seanchan slows or stops their conquest. This conquest would mean the end of the AS's life. So therefore, attacking the Seanchan is defending the AS. Even if the individual AS thought she could hide from the Seanchan or something, the Oaths say they can use the power in defence of another sister.

 

So in this sense if AS know that Seanchan victory is a threat on the life of every sister, they should be able to "throw the first punch" so to speak.

 

This would apply to fighting Shadowspawn and Darkfriends as well, though it doesnt really matter because the Oaths say they can fight these regardless. However had the designers of the Oaths somehow been aware of the threat Seanchan would eventually pose, would they have included them with the forces of the DO?

 

Food for thought...

 

 

[NoGuessing]

Yeah thats some interesting stuff..

 

The best solution would be to simply change the oaths. I can't see the nations of the world objecting to Aes Sedai being allowed to blast the Seanchan off the face of the earth.

 

Would also save the Warders. If an AS is made Damane, the warder is most likely either dead in her defence or about to stage a death trap rescue attempt.

 

In any case, after the LB, if the Aiel still exist, the Wise Ones seem pretty keen on another expidition over the Dragonwall to have a blood feud with the Seanchan. Aiel soldiers, their channellers and their stealth is likely enough to drive a Seanchan army with a homeland in civil war right back over the Aryth Ocean.

[Mr Ares]

Being made into Damane is the same as dying.

No, it isn't. Damane are still alive. That's quite a difference. And the Oath does not say they can use the OP as a weapon if at risk of something very unpleasant happening, it says last extreme defence of her own life. Damane are alive.

If they're made Damane, the Aes Sedai die out.

As an organisation, yes, but that is not a loophole in the Oath. They are not protecting the life of themselves or another sister if there is no risk of death. If they believe there is a risk of death - or if there is a legitimate risk of death - they can act. When the Seanchan attacked, there was a legitimate risk of death, and people were likely to be feeling threatened. Remember, last extreme defence of your dignity, humanity, job, personality and so on are not covered, the Oath allows only for the defence of life. Of course, the Oaths are idiotic and should be scrapped, but until they are, they are limited.

[Beer Rot]

3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn or Darkfriends, or in the last extreme defence of her own life or that of her Warder or another Aes Sedai.

 

There are many loopholes enabling the Aes Sedai to side-step the Oaths without breaking them. It all depends on the interpretation.

 

Let me note that I'm almost certain that the bolded has been stated by AS in the series.

 

As Seanchan would unlikely leave Warders alive, just being attacked is one possible reason for using the OP.  Plus, I would assume that any offensive weave would be taken as a life threatening attack.

 

And has been shown many times in the series, just being in the general vicinity of a battle has been enough reason to use the OP.

 

edited to add the darkfriends to the third oath, I remember them being in the oath more than once.

[MikeRiley]

The Aes Sedai would have had a battle mentality. The White Tower was under attack and they were all in danger. It's not a great leap from there to being able to use the Power as a weapon. Besides, the Seanchan weren't just trying to get new damane, don't forget the fireballs. They didn't just get used to blow holes in the tower for access points.

[Shadow Rider]

The only way for AS to defeat the Damane is to link....

They cannot defend against a Damane because their lives are not threatened, but a circle of three is stronger than a Damane and a Suldam, and thus block a shield.

The Seanchan would then have to attack and the circle is still stronger.

[Mr Hindley]

I seem to remember Adelorna Bastine (the leader of the Greens) thinking that she had been defending with two other sisters - one got taken as damane, but the other was killed by an explosion. Plus, one of her warders was killed. So it seems pretty cut and dried that lives of both Aes Sedai and warders were in danger, thus making the Three Oaths not a problem?

[Aquarius]

I seem to remember Adelorna Bastine (the leader of the Greens) thinking that she had been defending with two other sisters - one got taken as damane, but the other was killed by an explosion. Plus, one of her warders was killed. So it seems pretty cut and dried that lives of both Aes Sedai and warders were in danger, thus making the Three Oaths not a problem?

That's my conclusion.

In war, only a White (if that) would take the time to consider the applicability of the Oath.

All fought blindly.

[NoGuessing]

Unless Egwene DID do all the killing "not wounding, but killing", then it hasn' been tested. so far though, it looks like the oaths weren't violated.

 

Mr Ares, there is more to death than dying literally. If I clamped a collar around your neck and forced you to become Aressi, because Aressi is a good damane, and I brainwashed you and did the whole Mylen jazz on you, would Mr Ares still live? I think not.

 

As the random AS quoted by the person above says, I guess it comes down to the Oaths being open to interpretation. Even the DOs oaths got owned by clever sneaky Verin due to interpreation.

 

Its a similar situation to that if Lanfear had gotten her hands on Rand in book five and he'd reappeared as LTT, which Moiraine sad was one of three possibilities. Sure, Rand would likely have just been loony, but Rand Al'Thor was dead. An imitation of LTT would have walked in his place.

 

Mr Ares, why do you think the Aes Sedai who fought and killed Seanchan still live if the Three Oaths were violated?

[FarShainMael]

3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn or Darkfriends, or in the last extreme defence of her own life or that of her Warder or another Aes Sedai.

 

There are many loopholes enabling the Aes Sedai to side-step the Oaths without breaking them. It all depends on the interpretation.

 

Let me note that I'm almost certain that the bolded has been stated by AS in the series.

 

As Seanchan would unlikely leave Warders alive, just being attacked is one possible reason for using the OP.  Plus, I would assume that any offensive weave would be taken as a life threatening attack.

 

And, of course, 'defence of life' is also open to interpretation. The threats being defended against could include loss or major unwelcome change - it all depends on what the AS concerned believed at the time she took the oath.

(Hey, that's how you get round the OR...  ;)  )

 

 

[divinorum]

If they could only use the power to prevent getting killed they would have been extinguished long ago.

 

Just think about someone walking up to them with a knife while saying "I won't kill you, only cut out your eyes so you can't channel at me." and them being unable to stop them.

 

Of course those oaths say nothing about not using the power as an instrument of torture and mutilation.

[OptimusPrime]

Just think about someone walking up to them with a knife while saying "I won't kill you, only cut out your eyes so you can't channel at me." and them being unable to stop them.

 

If you convinced youself they werent going to just cut out you eyes you could probably do something.

[scion9]

If they could only use the power to prevent getting killed they would have been extinguished long ago.

 

Just think about someone walking up to them with a knife while saying "I won't kill you, only cut out your eyes so you can't channel at me." and them being unable to stop them.

 

Of course those oaths say nothing about not using the power as an instrument of torture and mutilation.

 

What would stop the Aes Sedai from defending herself with Power while not explicitly maiming or killing with it?  I mean, Aes Sedai have been shown to wrap people in flows of Air.  Binding someone with the One Power is not using the One Power as a weapon.  By the same interpretation an Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to make a Gateway and run away because any defensive use of the One Power is using it 'as a weapon' which is ridiculous.

 

I also have to agree with Mr. Ares.  Anything short of killing him would leave him alive.  He'd still be alive even if you lobotomized him.  The Oath is clearly meant to refer to physically, literally dying, not hyperbolic wangsty tween metaphorical death.  A threat to one's way of life is not a threat to one's life. 

 

The logic that Damane are not 'alive' because they are treated like domesticated animals and believes themselves to essentially be animals doesn't work because although animals are not human they are indeed still alive.  By the same logic wouldn't current Damane be considered not living, and therefor free the Aes Sedai to kill them with the Power, even when <em>not</em> defending themselves from attack?  They are not alive afterall, so squashing a Damane's head isn't distinct from crushing a rock with flows of Air.

 

For that matter, if the Damane's own mental state in allegedly believing they are no longer human (although this is not explicit) is what distinguishes them as being not alive, then wouldn't that same mental state transfer over to any living creature not cognizant of it's nature, such as infants, and the mentally handicapped?

[bronnt]

Just think about someone walking up to them with a knife while saying "I won't kill you, only cut out your eyes so you can't channel at me." and them being unable to stop them.

 

If you convinced youself they werent going to just cut out you eyes you could probably do something.

 

Well, the weapon exemption of course doesn't prevent them from using Air to jerk the knife away, or wrap them up in Air, or any of various ways you can use the OP, without it being a weapon, in self defense. That leaves a great deal.

[divinorum]

Yes, you are all right of course, that was a very bad example. I don't know why I didn't think of that.

 

What I tried to tell but failed to was that the restrictions of the oaths are only in their minds. For example, Alanna were able to make the catapult boulders in Emond's Field explode on impact despite the oath "To make no weapon with which one man may kill another". She could not have known if some murderous man would throw them on the townspeople. But she could create them by telling herself it was for killing trollocs (I suppose).

Similarly, I don't see any reason why someone bound by those oaths couldn't kill with the power if they told themself that they were killing using the power as a tool or instrument.

[Hadilmir]

A tool or instrument used to cause harm is a weapon. A hatchet is a tool, but used to hack someone's face off it is considered a weapon. A wrench, a hammer, a tissue, a rope; all tools that can be used to cause harm and thus be considered weapons.

[divinorum]

A tool or instrument used to cause harm is a weapon. A hatchet is a tool, but used to hack someone's face off it is considered a weapon. A wrench, a hammer, a tissue, a rope; all tools that can be used to cause harm and thus be considered weapons.

Maybe you are right. A tool is not a weapon until you use it as one. Then perhaps a way to kill with the power is to create an exploding boulder throwing ter'angreal to use as a mining tool. That way, you haven't created a weapon but a tool and you are not using the power as a weapon, but can use the ter'angreal as one. :)

 

If that is not allowed then Aes Sedai could not create any item since even a cuendillar pot can be used as a weapon.

 

Sorry for being off-topic.

[OptimusPrime]

A tool or instrument used to cause harm is a weapon.

 

A weave of Air used to beat Rand, though, that isnt seen as a weapon in the eyes of the Aes Sedai who channeled it.

[FarShainMael]

When Elaida uses Air to beat Egwene, the point is made that Elaida could do this because she genuinely considered Egwene a DF.

 

It all comes down to interpretation, doesn't it..

 

This from dictionary.com gives typical definitions of 'weapon':

 

1. any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, or cannon.

 

2. anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim: the deadly weapon of satire.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weapon?jss=0

 

If when taking this Oath, the AS believes that only def (1) applies, she can use the OP in def (2).

 

 

 

[Wantanswers]

By leashing a AS the 3 oaths are not not released. Pura couldn't lie and Mylen (a very good damane and devoted to Tuon) couldn't be used as a weapon. Mylen herself was even disappointed by that.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, there is more to death than dying literally. If I clamped a collar around your neck and forced you to become Aressi, because Aressi is a good damane, and I brainwashed you and did the whole Mylen jazz on you, would Mr Ares still live? I think not.

Yes, he would. And he would be bloody furious. He might also wonder why he was referring to himself in the third person, but would probably just shrug it off and be grateful he isn't referring to himself in the second person, as that gets really confusing. It says defence of life, not identity or way of life.

 

Mr Ares, why do you think the Aes Sedai who fought and killed Seanchan still live if the Three Oaths were violated?

Who said the Three Oaths were violated? They were acting in defence of their lives - there was a battle, people were dying.

 

A tool or instrument used to cause harm is a weapon. A hatchet is a tool, but used to hack someone's face off it is considered a weapon.

Good times.

 

By leashing a AS the 3 oaths are not not released. Pura couldn't lie and Mylen (a very good damane and devoted to Tuon) couldn't be used as a weapon. Mylen herself was even disappointed by that.

True, but who said otherwise?

 

I also have to agree with Mr Ares. Anything short of killing him would leave him alive.

And even that might not be enough.

[Treehugger]

For an Aes Sedai defeat in the battle could result in enslavement or death but for her warder(s) the only result would be death.

 

The 3 oaths allows the AS to use the one power to defend herself and her warder(s)