Battle between the Dragon and the DO...a bit confused

[Elke]

I'm doing a reread but I'm still confused about something..

So in the Age of Legends, they made the Bore which released the Dark One, and Lews Therin was named the Dragon. In the next age, Rand becomes the Dragon Reborn because the Dark One's prison is breaking again.

But it's said that the Dragon and the Dark One have fought thousands of times since the beginning of time.

But how have they fought so many times when the Dark One was still imprisoned until the Bore was drilled in the last age? Did they make the same mistake by making the Bore with each turning of the wheel?? That sounds weird..

And I thought that Lews Therin was the first to be named "Dragon" but he must be a reincarnation himself?

Am I missing something?  :o

[dapianoplay3r]

Im not a hard core fan so I wouldnt trust my views that much but thats how I took it. I thought that the whole point of the wheel was that it just goes on and on, over and over the same. The only thing that might prove this wrong is that RJ has said the one or two things are unique to this turning so maybe it just follows a similar storyline but itsnt as rigid as it sounds.

How far have you read?

[Elke]

I'm almost at the end of The Great Hunt. It's the second time I'm reading the books. I'm hoping to finish before the next book is released.

Yes I guess it is a possible view, the same things happen over and over again but in this age, the Light finally wins - or so we hope ;) Maybe the turning of the wheel can be interpreted in several ways and I wonder what other people think.

But now I'm starting to think of how the end of one turning becomes the beginning again  ;D

 

[dapianoplay3r]

oh gud youve read them

Well RJ said that about Fain so think about that

[Majsju]

Yes, every time the AOL comes around, someone makes the same mistake, and drills a bore in the DOs prison. Keep in mind that there are 5 full Ages between the end of the 3rd Age and the AOL, ie thousands of years to wipe out all memories of the part pf history we get to see. In the AOL, not only was it long forgotten that the DO was imprisoned, it was long forgotten the DO even existed.

 

As for LTT, yes he ws the first to be called the Dragon. And yes he was the reincarnation of someone else.

[Elke]

Ah thanks now it makes sense. I hadn't thought of the possibility that people in the AOL had forgotten that the DO existed.

[MSnyder28]

Keep in mind that its not that actual Dark One that Lews Therin (and all his other reincarnations before and after) are fighting, its his representative in the world, which seems to be the soul of Ishamael.  Lews Therin is the representative of the Creator, fighting against the Dark One's representative.  The Dark One has never left his prison, though he has been reaching out of it, so to speak, through the bore. 

 

I'm hesitant to say that the people in the Age of Legends forgot that the Dark One existed, I'm pretty sure he's known about in every age, its just that in the Age of Legends they made the mistake of drilling into the bore while looking for new forms of power to tap into.  It is said that the people of the AOL were looking for a power source that male and females could both access without the distinction that there is in saidin and saidar, and it appears they found one (the true power) and they tapped into that unknowingly, which created the bore.  Also, I don't believe that the bore was remade in the recent age, I think that the seals that Lews Therin and the hundred companions put into place weakened over the millennia and finally started break down (possibly due to the fact that it was placed without the circle of male and female Aes Sedai as Lews Therin originally wanted).

 

Lews Therin was THE Dragon, he's probably the only one given that title, and since he was the most recent reincarnation before Rand (3000 years prior), he's more than likely the only one anyone remembers.

[Jonas Dagaard]

…thousands of times, over and over.  The idea being that time is circular and everything is going to repeat itself, or at the very least the "overall" arch or themes will repeat even if the names and places are altered abit.  It could be argued that the title of "dragon" was, and has been issued hundreds and thousands of time before and did not "originate" with LTT.  Given the over all idea that everything happens again and again ad nauseum, that indeed it has been used before and it is only due to the current cycle that LTT is known in and as such "earns" the Dragon Originator title, when in reality he is not the first. 

 

Along a similar line, what happens between the 7th and 1st age when everything effectively "starts over".  One would think it would have to be something pretty durn catasprophic so that it effectively "erases" all traces of the previous 7 ages…~

[lsm]

…thousands of times, over and over.  The idea being that time is circular and everything is going to repeat itself, or at the very least the "overall" arch or themes will repeat even if the names and places are altered abit.  It could be argued that the title of "dragon" was, and has been issued hundreds and thousands of time before and did not "originate" with LTT.  Given the over all idea that everything happens again and again ad nauseum, that indeed it has been used before and it is only due to the current cycle that LTT is known in and as such "earns" the Dragon Originator title, when in reality he is not the first. 

 

Along a similar line, what happens between the 7th and 1st age when everything effectively "starts over".  One would think it would have to be something pretty durn catasprophic so that it effectively "erases" all traces of the previous 7 ages…~

like a 2nd breaking of the world? doesnt seem to require much from the books anyway, and i don't think that's stretching plausibility at all

[Agitel]

Time is cyclical, like a wheel... of time...  ;)

 

But yes, it is, in the books. The Wheel has seven ages, and the AoL and the Third Age are only two of them.

 

…thousands of times, over and over.  The idea being that time is circular and everything is going to repeat itself, or at the very least the "overall" arch or themes will repeat even if the names and places are altered abit.  It could be argued that the title of "dragon" was, and has been issued hundreds and thousands of time before and did not "originate" with LTT.  Given the over all idea that everything happens again and again ad nauseum, that indeed it has been used before and it is only due to the current cycle that LTT is known in and as such "earns" the Dragon Originator title, when in reality he is not the first.  

 

Along a similar line, what happens between the 7th and 1st age when everything effectively "starts over".  One would think it would have to be something pretty durn catasprophic so that it effectively "erases" all traces of the previous 7 ages…~

like a 2nd breaking of the world? doesnt seem to require much from the books anyway, and i don't think that's stretching plausibility at all

 

I disagree with the idea that there's a "start over" at any particular point. It's the people who live in what they call the Fourth Age who've designated the term Third Age. I dislike the notion that there's a particular Beginning, as there are no beginnings nor endings. Ages repeat, there's no official first or seventh, at least, the numbering isn't necessarily what's been given to us.

[Jonas Dagaard]

Time is cyclical, like a wheel... of time...  ;)

 

But yes, it is, in the books. The Wheel has seven ages, and the AoL and the Third Age are only two of them.

 

I disagree with the idea that there's a "start over" at any particular point. It's the people who live in what they call the Fourth Age who've designated the term Third Age. I dislike the notion that there's a particular Beginning, as there are no beginnings nor endings. Ages repeat, there's no official first or seventh, at least, the numbering isn't necessarily what's been given to us.

Perhaps, "start over" is a bit harsh, but there is always "a beginning", a point were things start from the basics and build up once more before crashing back, like waves.  I would argue that there would need to be some point of a "beginning" given there are 7 ages…there has been a number associated to them.  Assuming the wheel of time as presented is true and the wheel ever turns with seven ages there most assuredly is a 1st age which would be considered the beginning for the current "rotation" of the wheel. 

 

It could also be argued that the whole 7 Ages/Wheel of Time thing itself is flawed and nothing more than something brought about by the masses of that particular time.  That indeed, time is actually linear.  Even in a linear time line one could have the constant battle and the rebirth of all the characters over and over.  The over all theme is being repeated but the world itself continues forward growing and changing.  This idea though I suspect will not be met with open arms among most folks and honestly am not a fan of it myself…but it is something to consider. ;) ~

[Agitel]

Time is cyclical, like a wheel... of time...  ;)

 

But yes, it is, in the books. The Wheel has seven ages, and the AoL and the Third Age are only two of them.

 

I disagree with the idea that there's a "start over" at any particular point. It's the people who live in what they call the Fourth Age who've designated the term Third Age. I dislike the notion that there's a particular Beginning, as there are no beginnings nor endings. Ages repeat, there's no official first or seventh, at least, the numbering isn't necessarily what's been given to us.

Perhaps, "start over" is a bit harsh, but there is always "a beginning", a point were things start from the basics and build up once more before crashing back, like waves.  I would argue that there would need to be some point of a "beginning" given there are 7 ages…there has been a number associated to them.  Assuming the wheel of time as presented is true and the wheel ever turns with seven ages there most assuredly is a 1st age which would be considered the beginning for the current "rotation" of the wheel. 

 

It could also be argued that the whole 7 Ages/Wheel of Time thing itself is flawed and nothing more than something brought about by the masses of that particular time.  That indeed, time is actually linear.  Even in a linear time line one could have the constant battle and the rebirth of all the characters over and over.  The over all theme is being repeated but the world itself continues forward growing and changing.  This idea though I suspect will not be met with open arms among most folks and honestly am not a fan of it myself…but it is something to consider. ;) ~

 

Eh, the glossary gives a pretty explicit definition, a definition that nobody but Herid Fel and Ishamael seemed to even be on the track of, so I'm pretty sure that, along with many of RJ's comments, implies that the seven ages is more than just philosophical.

 

Again, I don't see why there need's to be a beginning. If there is one, I would say it's The Last Battle itself. As our time is supposed to be an Age in the WoTverse, then our legends are "based" on events from these books and after. As many our familiar with Christianity, you know the legends surrounding the War in Heaven, with Lucifer and Archangel Michael and all that jazz? That's the Last Battle. You know the story told in Revelation? That's the Last Battle (actually, I'd say it's both the War of Power in the AoL and the Last Battle). You kind of find the same type of things in many mythologies around the world, too, with a time where the gods were active in the past, warring with each other, then you get to normal times, then you get to some prophesied last battle. There is no reset, really.

 

You know the Great Flood in Judaism/Christianity/Islam? Well, the legend exists in many cultures, actually. That fits into the WoTverse as well, as, after all, how do we get from a society such as Randland and the seemingly good times of the Fourth Age back to the stone age without some kind of great world-wide disaster?

 

There's many points you can use as a beginning and an ending.

 

 

[Jonas Dagaard]

agreed, to many instances infer the Wheel itself is the "true" representation of time for the purposes of the story.  which infers that indeed, there are ages 1 through 7.  it could very well be that the 1st age is not the "starting  point" for a rotation of the wheel, but actually another age.  yet, whether the "start point" is in the first age or some other, there would be a form of rebirth/starting over that would occur, evenin in a cycle.  like waves...after the crash...the water has to build up once again before the next crash so in a sense that moment just after the crash would be the beginning point.~ 

[MSnyder28]

Time is cyclical, like a wheel... of time...  ;)

 

But yes, it is, in the books. The Wheel has seven ages, and the AoL and the Third Age are only two of them.

 

I disagree with the idea that there's a "start over" at any particular point. It's the people who live in what they call the Fourth Age who've designated the term Third Age. I dislike the notion that there's a particular Beginning, as there are no beginnings nor endings. Ages repeat, there's no official first or seventh, at least, the numbering isn't necessarily what's been given to us.

Perhaps, "start over" is a bit harsh, but there is always "a beginning", a point were things start from the basics and build up once more before crashing back, like waves.  I would argue that there would need to be some point of a "beginning" given there are 7 ages…there has been a number associated to them.  Assuming the wheel of time as presented is true and the wheel ever turns with seven ages there most assuredly is a 1st age which would be considered the beginning for the current "rotation" of the wheel. 

 

It could also be argued that the whole 7 Ages/Wheel of Time thing itself is flawed and nothing more than something brought about by the masses of that particular time.  That indeed, time is actually linear.  Even in a linear time line one could have the constant battle and the rebirth of all the characters over and over.  The over all theme is being repeated but the world itself continues forward growing and changing.  This idea though I suspect will not be met with open arms among most folks and honestly am not a fan of it myself…but it is something to consider. ;) ~

 

Eh, the glossary gives a pretty explicit definition, a definition that nobody but Herid Fel and Ishamael seemed to even be on the track of, so I'm pretty sure that, along with many of RJ's comments, implies that the seven ages is more than just philosophical.

 

Again, I don't see why there need's to be a beginning. If there is one, I would say it's The Last Battle itself. As our time is supposed to be an Age in the WoTverse, then our legends are "based" on events from these books and after. As many our familiar with Christianity, you know the legends surrounding the War in Heaven, with Lucifer and Archangel Michael and all that jazz? That's the Last Battle. You know the story told in Revelation? That's the Last Battle (actually, I'd say it's both the War of Power in the AoL and the Last Battle). You kind of find the same type of things in many mythologies around the world, too, with a time where the gods were active in the past, warring with each other, then you get to normal times, then you get to some prophesied last battle. There is no reset, really.

 

You know the Great Flood in Judaism/Christianity/Islam? Well, the legend exists in many cultures, actually. That fits into the WoTverse as well, as, after all, how do we get from a society such as Randland and the seemingly good times of the Fourth Age back to the stone age without some kind of great world-wide disaster?

 

There's many points you can use as a beginning and an ending.

 

 

 

 

There certainly must have been a beginning, as the books state that the Creator "created" the wheel of time, which weaves the pattern of the ages.  That would certainly imply a beginning, that is, the beginning of creation which was the moment of "creation", during which the DO was imprisoned as well.  As to what age that may be, who knows?  Logic would dictate the first age, as why else would it be called "first"?  Moreover, why would there be a "second", "third", etc...if there were no first?  Those words would all be meaningless.  As for the way time goes, I would argue that it is not so much as a circle, but a spiral.  Circular would almost imply that everything happens the same exact way again and again, where a spiral would imply that the same THEMES occur over and over again with new people and places, each battling against the same forces and the same spiritual entities that appear in different guises in each age.  True, the souls may be the same souls reincarnated in every age, but they are in different bodies and go through different events each time, though all with the same themes of battling the Shadow.

[FarShainMael]

The Creator stands outside of the time in which the Wheel turns, so those who are bound to it would see no beginning.

 

Also, I'd say that the time is a helix rather than a spiral.. what you would get if you tried to draw a circle round a cylinder that is moving past you.

 

[MikeRiley]

I just figure that the world was created complete with a past and a Wheel that was already turning. You could say that the age it was created in was Age 1, but the inhabitants of Randland would still remember 2-3 ages before. At no time will people probably say "This is Age 7" or "This is Age 1." To suggest they'd say it was the first age means all knowledge was entirely wiped out. So long as people can speak this will never be the case.

 

There were probably multiple breakings every couple of ages. The power isn't required for that. Perhaps the Mosk and Merk legends are remembered as long as they are because of something that was done to cause catastrophe?

[FarShainMael]

Somethng that's bothered me right from the start.. We're reading about events that take place in an Age 'called the Third Age by some'. The Last Battle is due because the Dragon has been Reborn. Shouldn't the Last Battle take place in Age 7?

 

[Yizun]

Somethng that's bothered me right from the start.. We're reading about events that take place in an Age 'called the Third Age by some'. The Last Battle is due because the Dragon has been Reborn. Shouldn't the Last Battle take place in Age 7?

 

 

You must remember, the Wheel isnt really a literal thing. Its more of a philosophical thing. The glossary states that while Major events (IE the Bore being drilled) are the same, pretty much everything else is different. Names, places, heck even the lay of the land (see Breaking) is different.

 

Also Ages arent always defined by something huge. Perhaps, in our world, when humans were wandering hunters and gatherers is the first age. The discovery of farming and therefore creating settled civilizations be the second age. When nations start banding together, perhaps that's the third age. Then the discovery of metalworking be the mark of the fourth. The discovery of Gunpowder the fifth, and then he discovery of Organic Chemistry in the 1800s be the sixth.

 

Could be something like that, remember that we know almost NOTHING about ages 1-3, only that they happened.

 

All of this is hypothetical of course, don't tear into me to bad :p

[FarShainMael]

That's certainly true in our own world.. we've had the Stone Age, the Bronze Age, Mediaeval, the modern world, and so on, of course. (The Space Age is faltering a bit.. :(  ).

 

I can't help feeling, though, that the beginning of a Turning of the Wheel  - the start of the first Age - should be marked by something enormous, something dramatic, the WoT equivalent of the Big Bang; and the end of the Turning - the end of the 7th age - by a catastrophe even greater than the Breaking of the world. to have it happen halfway through seems a bit odd.

 

Or maybe four more ages have passed while the chronicler wasn't looking..  ;)

 

[Yizun]

Somethng that's bothered me right from the start.. We're reading about events that take place in an Age 'called the Third Age by some'. The Last Battle is due because the Dragon has been Reborn. Shouldn't the Last Battle take place in Age 7?

 

 

Remember, there is never truly a "last" battle. You can not kill a god. The Dark One will still be there, waiting and watching, until mankind forgets and makes the same stupid mistake as the "first" time

[Tommatt]

The Creator stands outside of the time in which the Wheel turns, so those who are bound to it would see no beginning.

 

Also, I'd say that the time is a helix rather than a spiral.. what you would get if you tried to draw a circle round a cylinder that is moving past you.

 

I'm doing a reread and at the begging of TdR it says its the 3rd age.  So that's 4 ages of peace to forget.