Wheel of Time philosophy and existence

[MSnyder28]

So I've been looking all over and I can't really find any answers to some big questions I have had concerning existence and reality itself in the Wheel of Time universe.  I'm wondering if there really just aren't any, but I wanted to try posting them here. 

 

For starters, what is the nature of the wheel of time and the great serpent, and their tie to existence?  It almost seems like these things are actual physical entities in the cosmos, but it seems more likely that they are metaphors for a much more abstract and spiritual entity that is the backdrop for all existence.

 

What is the nature behind the Creator, and what is his relationship to the world and the Wheel/Pattern/True Source/great serprent?  Is he infinite and omnipotent, always truly in control over his creation and reality that he created?  It says in the books and the guides that the Creator created the wheel of time, which weaves the pattern, and that's all. So does that mean that the Creator just created the pattern, turned on the switch, and peaced out?  Is he still intimately involved with his creation, and what happens to his creatures (all the people and other entities he created), constantly creating and driving the wheel and the pattern as he sees fit?  Is he the real source of the "True Source/One Power?  If not, where does the one power come from?  And if so, how does the Dark One factor in?  It says the Creator created the Dark One, which should imply that the Dark One is subservient to Creator, considering he's only a creation and owes his existence to the Creator anyway.  And is the Dark One a physical supremely powerful being, or is he some kind of spiritual entity that influences people to do evil in his name?  And is he working against the Creator, or is he an agent of the Creator, created to test the creation by allowing evil to exist, and bring it to its ultimate potential through its overcoming of that evil?

 

These are pretty loaded questions, I know, but I have been wondering them since I began reading the WOT series years back, and I haven't found any site or source that discusses them.

 

Please share your thoughts!

[Hadilmir]

It's never been specifically stated, but it's generally accepted that the Creator is more powerful than the Dark One, but I've never liked that. So now, before anyone else posts, I'll try to convert you to my theory.

 

Like two players who sit down on opposite sides of a Sha'rah board, the Creator and the Dark One are different yet equal entities. In the great recycling of souls there must be death to balance life. I argue that the Sha'rah board (Earth) was created by neither player, but the Creator was probably allowed the first 'move'. Either way, there is balance, the Dark One gets a move for every move the Creator takes. Neither player could directly influence the Pattern, but by drilling the Bore the Dark One can sidestep the rules and 'cheat'. Now, if you assume the voice in tEotW was the Creator then you could take it to mean the Creator would play by the rules and influence the Pattern, not cheat by giving powers to his minions.

 

That's a very condensed and revised version of what I've posted in another thread.

[MSnyder28]

Hmm.  Interesting theory, and I can see the support that the voice in TEotW would give that.  However, I have a few questions/difficulties with it.  Firstly, if the Creator and the DO are equal in power, as you suggest, which also would imply that the DO wasn't created by the Creator, then how is it that he would be imprisoned at the start of creation by the Creator?  How would he allow himself to be trapped in a prison if he and the Creator were on equal footings?  Moreover, if they are equal in power, and the DO wants to just do away with the pattern altogether, why would he let the Creator create the pattern to begin with?  Also, by your definition, it seems that both the Creator and the DO are created beings themselves, along with the universe, and so that begs the question of who created them, and why? 

 

The cosmic chess game theory is a good one, but it seems to bring up more questions along with it.

[Mr Ares]

So I've been looking all over and I can't really find any answers to some big questions I have had concerning existence and reality itself in the Wheel of Time universe.

Mr Ares to the rescue.

For starters, what is the nature of the wheel of time and the great serpent, and their tie to existence? It almost seems like these things are actual physical entities in the cosmos, but it seems more likely that they are metaphors for a much more abstract and spiritual entity that is the backdrop for all existence.

More metaphysical than actual. There isn't a giant snake somewhere in the universe. Time is cyclical, the same Ages (seven of them) recur, each time the same yet different, variations on a theme.

 

What is the nature behind the Creator, and what is his relationship to the world and the Wheel/Pattern/True Source/great serprent?

The Creator is the guy who created it all. A god, but not God. He doesn't appear to take any further role in the world - he set things in motion, and now stands back to see what happens. He has not been shown to be omnipotent.

It says in the books and the guides that the Creator created the wheel of time, which weaves the pattern, and that's all. So does that mean that the Creator just created the pattern, turned on the switch, and peaced out?

Yes.

Is he still intimately involved with his creation, and what happens to his creatures (all the people and other entities he created), constantly creating and driving the wheel and the pattern as he sees fit?

No.

Is he the real source of the "True Source/One Power?

He created them, but they are not known to be drawn from him in the same way the True Power is drawn from Shai'tan.

It says the Creator created the Dark One

No it doesn't. I'm not aware of any reference to the Creator creating Shai'tan, and RJ's own statements on the issue make it very unlikely. It's a dualistic universe, two gods in conflict with one another. One creates, the other destroys. Thinking of it in Christian terms doesn't work, Shai'tan is not Satan to the Creator's god, He is a god in His own right, equal and opposite to the Creator. RJ himself likened it to Manichaeism, and others have noted similarities to Zoroastrianism.

And is the Dark One a physical supremely powerful being, or is he some kind of spiritual entity that influences people to do evil in his name?

Shai'tan is shown in the series to be a powerful being in His own right, jamming the weather in perpetual summer. However, He is limited in what he can do to the world, due to being trapped outside creation. Hence His need for human agents.

 

It's never been specifically stated, but it's generally accepted that the Creator is more powerful than the Dark One

No it isn't. It is, in fact, generally accepted that Shai'tan is the equal (more or less) of the Creator. RJ's own statements on the issue support this interpretation.

The Creator, the Dark One and the Nature of the Universe-

 

 

Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and has to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

 

 

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books...it's somewhat Manichean, I know, but I think it works.

From 13th Depository.

 

Firstly, if the Creator and the DO are equal in power, as you suggest, which also would imply that the DO wasn't created by the Creator, then how is it that he would be imprisoned at the start of creation by the Creator?

I don't need to be stronger than you to build a wall to keep you out.

Moreover, if they are equal in power, and the DO wants to just do away with the pattern altogether, why would he let the Creator create the pattern to begin with?

Firstly, He is not human, so His actions do not necessarily make sense in human terms. Secondly, sometimes it can be more fun to wait until someone has finished making something before smashing it.

[MSnyder28]

well that all makes sense, in terms of the story line anyway.  It seems you are going along also with what Hadilmir said, more of a cosmic chess game.  Yeah, it corresponds with the dualism that is seen in zoroastrianism, one good god and one bad god.  whatever it is, it's certainly not monotheism in the strictest sense. 

 

The only question it begs to ask, is where did the creator and the DO come from?  If neither of them created the other, that means that both of them are finite beings, however vast or powerful, which means both of them had to have been created by someone else.  Then again, I have to realize that its a fantasy novel and that type of question doesnt really matter in those terms anyway, because it has no real connection to our story. 

 

Thank you for clearing that all up, can you do me a favor and show me where to find RJ's discussions on the subject?

[Mr Ares]

If neither of them created the other, that means that both of them are finite beings, however vast or powerful, which means both of them had to have been created by someone else.

No it doesn't. You are thiking in terms of our physical laws, but these are beings outside our universe, and thus outside the laws of physics. The rules are different.

 

Thank you for clearing that all up, can you do me a favor and show me where to find RJ's discussions on the subject?

RJ's comments on this and other subjects are found in a variety of places. This thread contains links to many of them. After that, you're on your own. Have fun.

[Jonas Dagaard]

…just general observation.  Notice that in general, the populace does not look to the Creator to save them, while the DO is definitely a more overt force to be dealt with.  While there are references to the Creator and oaths and prayers mentioned to him/her/it here and there the brunt of the "saving" comes down to people looking to one another in defeating the DO without assistance from "above".~

[Suttree]

The Creator is the guy who created it all. A god, but not God. He doesn't appear to take any further role in the world - he set things in motion, and now stands back to see what happens. He has not been shown to be omnipotent.

 

In knowing this has the voice that Rand heard in teotw ever been explained?

[Mr Ares]

The Creator is the guy who created it all. A god, but not God. He doesn't appear to take any further role in the world - he set things in motion, and now stands back to see what happens. He has not been shown to be omnipotent.

In knowing this has the voice that Rand heard in teotw ever been explained?

No - when asked about the identity of the voice, RJ said RAFO. The Creator remains the most likely candidate given the things we know at present - such as the Creator not taking any part and the voice saying I WILL TAKE NO PART.

[MSnyder28]

No it doesn't. You are thiking in terms of our physical laws, but these are beings outside our universe, and thus outside the laws of physics. The rules are different.

 

it's not a matter of physical law at all, as what you said implies they are outside of the physical realm.  really it is based on intellect, which one has to use in order to begin to understand things like this.  namely, you can't have two all powerful beings, or to infinite beings, lets say.  it just doesn't make sense, as the term infinite implies NO bounds whatsoever, meaning nothing exists outside of it and it can have no physical attributes.  when there is two of something, they both have to be finite, as there can be only one infinity.  moreover, if something is finite, it must have a beginning, because finiteness cannot create itself, and it had to have come from something else.  You may say next that all of this transcends logic, but if the creator created the world with a certain logical or intellectual foundation, like laws of nature that he put into place, then created beings have no choice but to use that logic in order to try to understand both the creation and the creator.

[Durinax]

I think its more like two roommates betting on a local sporting event, and the one is friends with guys on the one team, so he is tries to convince his friend and gain more friends in order to shave the odds on the bet. Whereas the other one is just waiting for the game to play out

[Shadow Rider]

There could be another being other than the "Creator" & The Great Lord that doesn't care about what happens.

TGL (The Great Lord) has been imprisoned since creation, what if the "Creator" was imprisoned as well...

Tied to the Wheel of Time, a balance of good and evil- one turning the Wheel and one trying to stop it.

 

On a side note* Why doesn't the "Creator" have a proper name?

[Mr Ares]

No it doesn't. You are thiking in terms of our physical laws, but these are beings outside our universe, and thus outside the laws of physics. The rules are different.

it's not a matter of physical law at all, as what you said implies they are outside of the physical realm.

Yes, it is. They are not subject to the laws of physics as we understand them, they are outside the universe. You therefore cannot use our rules in a place those rules might not even exist. You say its based on intellect, but the intellect you use, the logic you use, is bound by our physical laws. If I created a universe where pi was exactly 3, then any calculation based on the assumption that pi was 3.14 would thus be wrong in that universe.

because finiteness cannot create itself

In our universe. They are not in our universe, therefore the rules that apply to us need not apply to them.

You may say next that all of this transcends logic, but if the creator created the world with a certain logical or intellectual foundation, like laws of nature that he put into place, then created beings have no choice but to use that logic in order to try to understand both the creation and the creator.

If the Creator created a world with certain physical laws, but was himself outside those laws... He plays by different rules. He could very well be beyond our understanding.

[Cillian]

On a side note* Why doesn't the "Creator" have a proper name?

 

He does, it's Eugene. He doesn't really like people knowing though, doesn't like His name.

[Malruhn]

On a side note* Why doesn't the "Creator" have a proper name?

Why doesn't the Christian God have a proper name?  Or the Muslim god? Or the Jewish God?

 

If you look at every religion and mythos I can think of, the actual translation of the name of their supreme creator/head deity translates as "creator" or "builder" or "founder" or "father/mother".

 

But I agree with Cillian.  Eugene just hates His name.

[javid]

On a side note* Why doesn't the "Creator" have a proper name?

Why doesn't the Christian God have a proper name?  Or the Muslim god? Or the Jewish God?

 

If you look at every religion and mythos I can think of, the actual translation of the name of their supreme creator/head deity translates as "creator" or "builder" or "founder" or "father/mother".

 

But I agree with Cillian.  Eugene just hates His name.

 

Jehovah, Allah and Yahweh respectively. Unless I miss my guess.

[Malruhn]

*pssssst*

 

Guess what those words translate to... "creator/deity/god/maker/saviour/father"

[Hadilmir]

Is there anyone out there willing to believe that the Creator did not in fact create the Wheel?  ???

[javid]

He is a builder. It's what he does. He creates and lets his creations run their course. The wheel is just a metaphor for the inner working of the universe and fate. There's nothing smaller to deduce it down to. The wheel is the metaphor for everything in the universe and the universe itself.

 

The creator made the universe and by definition would have made the wheel since they are one in the same.

 

My two cents anyways.

[Hadilmir]

I'll take that as a 'No'.  ;)

[MSnyder28]

On a side note* Why doesn't the "Creator" have a proper name?

Why doesn't the Christian God have a proper name?  Or the Muslim god? Or the Jewish God?

 

Jehovah, Allah and Yahweh respectively. Unless I miss my guess.

 

 

In terms of Judaism, G-d has many names, each referring to different manners in which He interacts with creation, but the one you are referring to as "yahweh" is the word the gentile world has chosen to use in order to pronounce the ineffible 4 letter name (also called the tetragrammaton) that we do NOT pronounce ever, even in prayer.  The true translation of this name has not been used in over 2000 years and even then, only once a year by one person in one place.  Nobody alive today, except perhaps a very small handful with a tradition they received that actually dates back as far as the Second Temple period, even knows how it is pronounced, nor would they pronounce it if they did.

[MSnyder28]

*pssssst*

 

Guess what those words translate to... "creator/deity/god/maker/saviour/father"

 

 

Also not so, in terms of the Christian term nor the Hebrew word (the Christian term being a lose attempt at a translation of the Hebrew), they actually do not mean any of those things.  While it certainly man allude to those ideas, the 4 letter (Hebrew) ineffable name that those two words are based off of actually is a combination of "I was", "I am", and "I will be", a word that He chose to call Himself that describes His being infinite, transcending nature and time completely, the First cause that brings everything else into existence ex nihilo.  He has many names, as I said in another post, each describing a different way that He interacts with His creation, but this one is the most holy and it is never spoken.