Sell me on the books

[King_Killer0]

I was hoping to try and get into this series, but a few things worry me.

 

I don't know how much of what I'm about to say is common knowledge, so be wary if you have not read all the books.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First, I should say that I have absolutely no knowledge of the books except for what I gathered from the Suvudu contest. I know the main character is Rand, that he lost a hand, and that he is a prophesied warrior, and great sorcerer, and seems to have his own harem, special sword, and some wounds that never heal yet he can go on fine. Now, I heard ALOT of good things about this series, but this seems to be a HUGE mary sue from where I'm standing. I can tolerate mary sues, but they have to be really well written, and few authors can pull that off, especially when a series goes on for so long. I'm just here, hoping that someone can tell me on why the WoT series is worth reading without spoiling much.

[Samuel]

It is very, very involving. The characterisation is absolutely superb, the characters are are all very multi-dimensional and real. The plot is enthralling too. Some complain that some books in the series (eight, nine, ten) are much "slower" than the others, but if you like political intrigue then you will be fine.

 

It really is worth reading. The write-up of Rand on Suduvu was terrible, don't mind it.

You won't regret reading it, trust me.

[ed2funy]

Well, he lost a hand in the second to last book out, so that isn't as important yet...

 

This series is so much more than 14 books of just that.

RJ builds the connections from his characters to the audience so well.

It is the tale of a young hero (3 friends, a tagalong, and a worried wisdom wisdom really) that leave their home to save it, and later to help save the world...

agh...I can't give a great or long description on my phone...but I want to see what others say....

:)

 

I hope you at least read the first book to see how easy you get hooked.

[King_Killer0]

I'm a huge fan of GRRM's series, so I can definitely get into political intrique. What really caught my eye about your post is real, multidimensional characters. However, as I said, all the stuff I heard about Rand (farmboy, prophesied warrior, nigh godlike, having a whole harem of girls at his feet, etc) make him seem like such a mary sue. This is my cheif concern with reading the books. I know mary sues can be well written, but I'm still aprehensive about it. Is there a way you can quell my concern about that, atleast?

 

To the second post, a heroes journey is something I'm always up for. Like I said in the first paragraph, however, I am worried just how sueish the character seems. Alleviate my concerns about that, and I almost definitely will try it.  ;D

[ed2funy]

Hmmm...I know it seems like all of that won't and can't happen in real life in...but you have to think (for the 'harem' part) that we are in today's society....

 

You get so caught up in RJ's writing and his characters, that you naturally progress with them. From the farmboy to the anguished DR to the dark, (emo :D) Rand.

 

:/

 

That is the best I can explain it...

 

And also....even though he is the main character, the other ones have just as deep story-lines. :)

[King_Killer0]

I guess I can accept that answer. Well written characters are typically my favorite part of books. I guess I'll go and try the first one now. Thanks. :)

[farthammer]

It has its flaws but if you've read anything in the fantasy genre then they shouldn't come as any surprise when you happen to come across them.  For its drawbacks though I think RJ put a lot of thought into building this fantasy world in ways I have not encountered much outside science fiction as I read on.  I imagine his educational background played a role in it.  He was also pretty good with setting up these really interesting situations as a result.  I think you could describe the main character as a Mary Sue, or maybe some of the others as well, but if anything they seem to have been set up that way for a brief period to turn those aspects into flaws.

[ravenfier]

one of my problems with the Suvudu contest is that they horably protrade Rand, He has his falts, glaring ones at that- points to Dark Rand. ok enough with that, resons to read wot:

 

1. IT IS THE EPIC STORY OF OUR TIME!!!- i got that one from a hardcore LOtR fan, yes wot out epics LOtR.

2. Rand is only one of the main characters. Yes, granted he is the prophsiszed savior of the world, he cant do it alone, he must have help of the other main people to have the chance of winning the last battle, Mat, Perrin, ect.

3. The characters are easily identifiable, you can easily see traits in them that can be said of you or of some one you know.

4. You can get sucked in to the story. Many people I know have had this happen, they pick one of the books up and the day passes with out them noticing, untill they have to turn a light on to continue reading.

5. Even with the prophisied one comming the world can still lose the battle.

6. The WoT world is our world just thousands of years in the future.

 

i could go on but ill tell you this Rand is no Mary Sue, on many occasions Rand makes and admitts his mistakes and that he is not perfect, to name two: His quest to become emotionaly stronger than stone, his mental failing of himself after book 5(?).

[King_Killer0]

BTW, should I start with the prequel that's out, or should I start with the first book that came out? I'd usually go in chronological order if possible, but ever since I played MGS3 before any of the other ones, then went back to it, I've been paranoid that I'm always missing injokes and references of the series because I didn't read the first entries first.

[ravenfier]

start with eye of the world

 

recomended that you dont read the prequel first, thats more back ground info on three important secondaries.

[somathus]

It was published 11th in order (I think).

[mb]

If you read the Lord of Rings series by Tolkien and liked it, you might also like this series since parts of this series seem similar to it.

Or if you have not read Lord of Rings but read other books from Tolkien and liked those, there might be a chance of liking this series also since Tolkien's works tended to have things in common with each other.

 

The things you mentioned in the opening post, those are accurate.

Wikipedia might be able to tell you more without revealing too much. Here is the main page about the series:: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_of_Time

 

[alligator]

One of the best things about WoT is the intense world building. I'm a fan of aSoIaF as well, just btw  :) where Westeros has its developed cultures, it's pretty much just midieval Europe. Randland is a whole new mix of cultures and ideologies, and an incredibly sophisticated and well thought out magic system (though there are some confusing bits about magic in the first books... lol). It's not like other fantasy, where the magic isn't explained or doesn't have boundaries. And there are so many characters and sub-plots... it's really easy to get deeply involved in the world.  :)

 

so I would recommend it.

 

Rand, also, definitely has some deeper stuff going on-- he has major moral issues and does some questionable things. I'm not sure if that disqualifies him from being 'mary sue', but it makes for a good character  ;D

[Hadilmir]

To put it frankly, in any story other than WoT Rand would be considered a Gary Stu. He's tied for the strongest but everyone is better educated/more evil/more intelligent. There is no real Deus Ex Machina that many people are claiming either because in the first book Robert Jordan explains Ta'Veren. Ta'Veren are basically the most situation-ally lucky people that have a job to do, hence their uncommon luck. You see this save our three heroes' lives often enough, but it isn't Deus Ex Machina because you already been told about it.

 

tl;dr: Read it.

[scion9]

To put it frankly, in any story other than WoT Rand would be considered a Gary Stu.

 

I don't consider Rand a Gary Stu because he lacks the quality of being the best at any one thing, other than strength in the One Power.  He is multitalented and competent, but there are multiple examples of other characters that consistently beat him out in their niche areas and examples of other characters that are also polymathic like Rand.  

 

Rand is obviously the Messianic figure, the golden boy, Chosen One, et cetera of the story, so he's singularly important, but he's not the one always resolving conflicts and he isn't necessary to resolve them, which is the mark of the Mary Sue for me.  

 

Even two of the stories cast of supervillain 'sorcerors' that would logically be the domain of conflict for Rand get taken out by a character that could seen as a sidekick (for lack of a better term).  We see the same dynamic with Mat's glory in the Battle of Cairhien where Rand half kills himself trying to do what Mat did essentially by accident.  Or when Shadowspawn attack the Borderlander's camp in TDR and Perrin gets praised for taking down a Fade and Rand is castigating himself over only accomplishing lighting some trees on fire.  Even as Rand gains competency and power these themes continue, where teamwork is required for victory.  In fact, I can't think of a situation where Rand has gone off on his own that hasn't turned out bad.

 

I'd say if there is an author's pet in the series it is Egwene.  Of course, the story isn't done yet, so Egwene's faults may still have an impact on the story.  If her flaws don't come to the forfront of the story or hamper her in any way she is definitely going down as a massive Mary Sue.  Not even to say that I don't enjoy her story arch, because I do, and she was especially awesome in TGS, but she literally can do no wrong.  Anything bad that happens to her or under her purview is caused by external forces outside of her control, which isn't the same for Rand who gets in over his head because he is so cocksure and arrogant.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

[Hadilmir]

I said in any story other than WoT...  ::)

[Mr Ares]

I don't know how much of what I'm about to say is common knowledge

This is a Wheel of Time fansite. We do tend to pick up on things like the major events of the series.

 

First, I should say that I have absolutely no knowledge of the books except for what I gathered from the Suvudu contest. I know the main character is Rand, that he lost a hand, and that he is a prophesied warrior, and great sorcerer, and seems to have his own harem, special sword, and some wounds that never heal yet he can go on fine. Now, I heard ALOT of good things about this series, but this seems to be a HUGE mary sue from where I'm standing.

You forgot that other notable Mary Sue trait - insanity. Rand is powerful but that alone is not enough to make him a Mary Sue. He is also a profoundly damaged individual who has been scarred by his experiences.

 

Dark Rand.

Never really saw the point in that nickname.

 

1. IT IS THE EPIC STORY OF OUR TIME!!!- i got that one from a hardcore LOtR fan, yes wot out epics LOtR.

Malazan Book of the Fallen out-epics WoT. Silmarillion out-epics Malazan. I guess Tolkien is still king.

 

Rand, also, definitely has some deeper stuff going on-- he has major moral issues and does some questionable things. I'm not sure if that disqualifies him from being 'mary sue', but it makes for a good character  ;D

It does. Mary Sue was a term coined to describe overly idealised author self-insertions in fan fiction. No part of that really fits Rand.

[ravenfier]

with the out epic statment, the descussion was for the cor LOtR booksie the hobit pluss the six volumes of LOtR- the lord of the rings, the two towers and the return of the king.

 

should i qoute something that was in a verbal debate? points above. ps -i'm not a LOtR fan, it puts me to sleep along with anne rice and king, lol.

[King_Killer0]

I finished the book 2 nights ago. Since everyone was kind enough to recommend the books so, I thought I'd share my thoughts with all of you.  ;D

 

Overall, I thought it was a fun ride but, there are quite a few criticisms I must make.

 

First off, this isn't really a flaw as much as it is a personal preference, but I'm really tired of the whole "dark lord" thing. Besides being cliche, it paints the opposition as completely black and evil. And that's BOOOOORING. The light side (Pretty much everyone not allied with the Dark one) all have lots of shades of grey and variety and are really interesting characters. This book would be 1000x more interesting if instead of going against the dark one, the antagonists were portrayed with the same shades of grey morality that the protagonists have. It gets ridiculous how everything of the dark one is described with negative connotations, to the point that it makes no sense. How can wind that's been flapped under a draghkar (sp?) feel like it's slime crawling on your skin but normal feel like...normal wind. Similarly, how can heat at the blight feel evil (keep in mind that this is before it became intense. It was just a regular heat wave....except EEEEVUL). Even people who are virtually identical get a bad word assigned. Moraine is always 'expressionless' but the random Darkfriend girl who tried to kill them with a stoic face was 'cold'. It's ridiculous. But the real flaw comes in when I can actually predict whether someone is evul, not based on what they do or say, but just how they look. Padan Fain was described as having shifty eyes or something. Immediately I predicted, like 700 pages in advance, that he was a bad guy, just by the way he looked. That should NOT happen. The real world doesn't work that way. People are not evil just because they look it.

 

The second biggest issue I have with the story is that no one ****ing communicates. I really, really don't understand this. I mean, I get it. You don't blab things to a Aes Sedai when she just told you she was gonna kill you if you didn't come with her. However, that threat eventually disappears. Why is it that Moraine didn't ask for a full account after they met up again in Caimlyn? Even if they didn't want to tell her, it makes no sense that Moraine wouldn't want to see what they've been up to. ESPECIALLY after she just discovered they hid Mat's dagger from her. And Rand comments on Perrin's eyes like 15 times but never bothers to go and ask him, "Hey, wtf happened to you back there?" You'd think that he'd ask even if he didn't notice the eyes, out of concern for his friend and lover.

 

The last major issue I have is the romance. I heard this series has some misogyny going on, but so far, if there was some, I didn't notice. But I did notice something else. The book really takes time to develop strong characters, and everything seems to progress logically. However, romances seem to be a bit out of the blue. Nynaeve is the best example. She meets Lan and she obviously has a crush on him because he's very capable. She enjoys that he acknowledges her capability as well, and compliments her on it. Beyond that, there is no interaction between the two, and then near the end she's asking him to MARRY her?! I am admittedly no expect in romance, but it seems pretty sudden. I realize they had more offscreen time than most, but if anything significant happened in that time period that would make her fall in love with him, then it's never mentioned. I'm not saying anything COULDN'T have happened, but it's bad writing to leave significant bits of character development out like that. Egwene's and Rand's is more reasonable, but it also seems to lack a reason. They grew up together and fell in love. Again, this isn't unbelievable, but I feel absolutely no connection to the romance between Rand and Egwene. I don't care if they get together, I don't care if they don't. I don't dislike either of these characters, but I couldn't care less about what happens to their relationship. Honestly, I'm more of a Perrin-Egwene shipper here. After the separation, Perrin had to protect her, and that made him develop something towards her, especially when he thought he'd have to kill her that one time. As a reader, I have more reason to believe they should be together than Rand and Egwene. Besides those issues, I get a bit weary of every girl Rand meets (that's not already doing something with some other guy) getting a crush on him solely based on his looks.

 

As for the writing itself, I also heard horror stories about this. That Jordan was getting paid by the word and you can read every third paragraph and not miss anything. Well, I wouldn't go THAT far, but the lengthy descriptions did slow the pace down considerably and you could probably cut off a line here and a word there and really make it a deal shorter. Like that random guard outside the Caimlyn's innkeeper's door. He got this lengthy description about how he looks like he's never paying attention but he always is (How can Rand can tell this?) and...what? He never did anything important. There was this one time where he kicked a guy out, but that's like, basically what any guard should do. I don't get it. What was the point of giving him all this space in the book if he wasn't going to do anything important? Maybe he'll make an appearance in the later books.

 

As I said, overall I really enjoyed the books and it's the characters that made it stand out. Lan maintains the mysterious badass aura very well. I honestly felt sorry for Moraine in how the 3 ta'veren's constantly hide info from her when she has done nothing but saved their lives constantly so far. Near the beginning, I bought that they shouldn't tell Aes Sedai everything. After they reunited, not so much. Egwene is a bit bland. Rand, he's okay. I neither like him nor hate him currently, mostly because everything that's happened so far has been out of his control and he has just been trying to survive. I just get annoyed at how ever girl seems to fall for him all the time. Can someone PLEASE tell me that Questioners kill and torture Mat at some point? The kid is beyond stupid. The only time he isn't stupid is when he's incapable of acting (under the control of the dagger, unconscious, etc). I don't like Nynaeve either. I LOVE tough women who are in control, which she was.....until we get inside her head. Then we realize that she only gives off the appearance of being tough and in control, which I find pathetic. I don't mean that she should be a shebitch with no heart to her, but she's constantly doing stupid petty stuff like "I will not be in awe of this magnificent city if Moraine is not". It's just a very insecure and childish display that I find pathetic and it totally turned me off her character.

 

Lastly, Perrin. He is awesome. Maybe I'm a bit biased because his personality reflects my own to an extent, but he is by far the best character for me. His character and journey was by far the as interesting and intense as Rand and Mats. I thought his wolf powers seemed a bit random, but reading about his uncertainties through this ride, especially when he was horrified to realize he may have to kill Egwene if they get caught really connected me to his character more than any other. And I have immense respect how he conducts himself. He admitted to loving Egwene, not even as a brother but actually loving her, but he knows she loves Rand so he doesn't interfere ever. He is never mentioned to give Rand so much as a envious look(Remember, Rand has an evil detector in his head lol). Just a respect for Egwene's and Rand's desire to be with each other, rather than he and Egween. That is incredibly mature. I wish the book was mainly from his PoV.

 

Anyway, those are my general thoughts on the book. If you have any question on what I thought of a part you have particular interest in, go ahead, I'm always up for discussions. I'm not going to read the next one immediately, I have somewhat of a backlog to get through, but I will get to it when I can.

[Mr Ares]

Well, as for Dark Lords, Robert Jordan considered one of the reasons for fantasy's popularity was being able to have straight good and evil - not black and white, good people can still do bad things, and bad people do good, but there is still good and evil, and they are different. So being able to have a Dark lord, an ultimate evil, you're basically saying that there is a difference between the good guys and the bad. And let's face it, some of Martin's villains do rather struggle to be seen in shades of grey, so much as complete monsters. Also, it is just the first book, and the only POVs you get are from a small band of good guys. Later books introduce further POVs, including from those of the Shadow. You might consider some of that to redress the balance, or just explain why things are as they are. Plus, RJ is hardly the only person to make use of black and grey morality. As for things feeling evil, it could just be a trick of perception. The Blight is a very hostile ecosystem, and they know it's caused by an evil god. Might be the mind starts telling them that this heat is an evil heat, whereas they might feel it was just heat if they didn't know they were in the Blight. It makes far more sense than going into a place like that and feeling like everything is fine and dandy. And while people might not be evil because they look evil, it could be that they look evil because they are. You just got the cause and effect muddled. And that can happen in real life.

 

As for lack of communication, that might be more realistic than you give it credit for being. Even if Moiraine questions them, they have no desire to start blabbing more than they need to. In reality, people really do withhold information, even important information, for silly and petty reasons, more so than they sit down and tell people everything. And this is one of the themes RJ was interested in when he started writing the series, so be warned, it continues. It's right at the heart of what the series is about.

 

As for the romance, it seems that RJ was just not brilliant at portraying it. People just fall in love, seemingly because of authroial dictate. Then again, maybe that's just how he feels it happens in real life. By the way, whatever you may have heard about the series having "some misogyny thing going on" is incorrect. The series is not misogynistic, not by any reasonable measure.

 

As for descriptions, RJ is fond of them. He also likes to give characterisation even to very minor chracters, as you noticed with the guard (I'm guessing you mean Lamgwin?). Bear in mind that when we first meet him, Rand has already been at the Queen's Blessing for some time, so he already knows the man, and thus he presumably has experience of what he's like. You shouldn't need to be told this, it's quite clear in the text that they are not meeting for the first time. As for lengthy, it's what, one paragraph? Not a hugely long one at that. Why shouldn't an author show that there's more to someone than just they happen to be a random guard? He makes the random a guard a character.

 

You might be disappointed to learn that Mat does not get tortured and killed by Questioners. However, from book 3 onwards, he starts becoming many people's favourite chracter. As for Nynaeve, she is indeed insecure. And not without reason. She was given power at a young age, and looked even younger than her years. If she tried to rule by consensus, she'd just get shoved into the background, so she had to be bossy. Now, she's had all her authority stripped away, in the big, wide world beyond Emond's Field. Despite her insecurity, she is still awesome. And of course, it's not like insecure women don't exist in real life, is it? Do you consider all of them tobe pathetic as well? Despite that, she is still a very capable young woman.

[MikeRiley]

As you read through the series you'll notice that it's not always a war between the Light and Dark. The Dark side employs tactics that causes infighting among the Light, just general chaos where neither side is clear-cut shadowspawn. This isn't always the case, but there isn't going to be a clear evil side for each conflict.

 

You can sometimes tell a bad person from a good by their appearance. Where Moiraine would be described as expressionless and the darkfriend as cold could be a lot in part from their eyes. You can tell a lot about a person from their eyes, whether they are lying or faking a mood. "A smile that doesn't touch his eyes." It's used fairly often in the series.

 

It also helps to know that at times the books get very descriptive for a reason. There are a lot of hints throughout the books that foreshadow things to come somewhere farther in the series. When a room is described in more detail than you think should be allowed it (as in, a room somebody peers into then walks away from), then we will probably see more of it later. The same goes for the side-characters.

[Hadilmir]

King_Killer0, glad you're giving the series a chance. As MikeRiley and Mr Ares have already said, just wait.

 

-Everything makes sense/gets better with time. Later in the series you find out the Dark One is not everything the 'good' characters think he is. It actually gets really complex trying to figure out anything about the Dark One, he isn't just a cliche 'evil' god. Yes, the first book makes it seem that way, but you only get PoV's from 'good' characters throughout EotW.

 

-Wait until you meet the Forsaken.

 

-Perception is key throughout the series. If you know and trust someone you will always think of them in a more positive light than strangers. For all we know, Tam could have shifty eyes as well, but he is looked up at by all the Emond's Fielders and no one is likely to even think about them. Padan Fain is just a rat-like man, that's not just because he is 'evil', others who turn out to be 'good' are described this way too. Everyone has those first thoughts on people based on how they look, sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. You were right this once, but don't expect it to happen every time.

 

-Go into a cemetery a pick up some flowers laying on a grave and take them home. This will feel wrong to you because you know exactly where they came from, but if you give them to your girlfriend she'll love them. It's all about perception, I think RJ uses it perfectly.

 

-I don't know where I heard this, but studies show that an average man's conversation is only 15% based on another person. Whereas a woman's is 90% based on other people, think about those percentages for a second. This I also think RJ captured wonderfully. That's starting to change, but I remember hearing a friend was dating someone in high school and just accepting it on hearsay, never asking them or caring to find out. That's the average reaction for a guy, or atleast it used to be.

 

-Again, Rand, Perrin, and Mat are best friends, they trust each other and if one of them doesn't want to talk about something they leave it be. In the next few books it is extremely obvious from Perrin's PoV's that he really doesn't want ANYONE knowing about his eyes, not even someone of extreme importance to him whose name I won't mention for spoiler reasons.

 

-Rand is apparently just a hot 18-19 year old guy. Surely you saw stuff like this happen in high school, freshman/sophomore instantly girls falling for senior/junior boys. Also, these things play out over the course of the entire series, unimportant things become important and vice-versa.

 

-If RJ makes special note of a character, expect them to appear again later, Langwin included.

 

-Rand's storyline declines, then inclines, then declines and inclines again throughout the series, you'll have plenty of mixed emotions about him. Mat's storyline is on an ever-inclining streak, he get's cooler and cooler as the story progresses. Perrin's storyline remains the coolest until the second half of the series, then it drops sharply, unfortunately.

[King_Killer0]

Well, as for Dark Lords, Robert Jordan considered one of the reasons for fantasy's popularity was being able to have straight good and evil - not black and white, good people can still do bad things, and bad people do good, but there is still good and evil, and they are different. So being able to have a Dark lord, an ultimate evil, you're basically saying that there is a difference between the good guys and the bad. And let's face it, some of Martin's villains do rather struggle to be seen in shades of grey, so much as complete monsters. Also, it is just the first book, and the only POVs you get are from a small band of good guys. Later books introduce further POVs, including from those of the Shadow. You might consider some of that to redress the balance, or just explain why things are as they are. Plus, RJ is hardly the only person to make use of black and grey morality. As for things feeling evil, it could just be a trick of perception. The Blight is a very hostile ecosystem, and they know it's caused by an evil god. Might be the mind starts telling them that this heat is an evil heat, whereas they might feel it was just heat if they didn't know they were in the Blight. It makes far more sense than going into a place like that and feeling like everything is fine and dandy. And while people might not be evil because they look evil, it could be that they look evil because they are. You just got the cause and effect muddled. And that can happen in real life.

 

I look forward to reading some of the later stuff if it blurs the line, but concerning only EotW, the thick line between the good guys and bad guys was fairly annoying. It's not an objective flaw, but personally just find it cliche and dull to have it like that. And I disagree about people looking evil because they are. Some may look evil and happen to be evil, but it's never BECAUSE they are evil. Gollum, for examples looks fleshy and hairless because of all his time spent lying in the dark rather than because his morality went down. I'll address the perception problem later.

 

As for lack of communication, that might be more realistic than you give it credit for being. Even if Moiraine questions them, they have no desire to start blabbing more than they need to. In reality, people really do withhold information, even important information, for silly and petty reasons, more so than they sit down and tell people everything. And this is one of the themes RJ was interested in when he started writing the series, so be warned, it continues. It's right at the heart of what the series is about.

 

But they actually don't have reason to withhold information here. They were chased by a darkfriend and lightning randomly stuck them. Then they got sick. They think they just got lucky (or the Light was looking out for them on that day) and they think they got sick from being out in the rain too much. There is no logical reason why they wouldn't tell the truth about this. And it's one thing for something to simply slip a persons mind, but you don't just 'forget' that lightning struck the men that were about to kill you.

 

As for the romance, it seems that RJ was just not brilliant at portraying it. People just fall in love, seemingly because of authroial dictate. Then again, maybe that's just how he feels it happens in real life. By the way, whatever you may have heard about the series having "some misogyny thing going on" is incorrect. The series is not misogynistic, not by any reasonable measure.

 

As for descriptions, RJ is fond of them. He also likes to give characterisation even to very minor chracters, as you noticed with the guard (I'm guessing you mean Lamgwin?). Bear in mind that when we first meet him, Rand has already been at the Queen's Blessing for some time, so he already knows the man, and thus he presumably has experience of what he's like. You shouldn't need to be told this, it's quite clear in the text that they are not meeting for the first time. As for lengthy, it's what, one paragraph? Not a hugely long one at that. Why shouldn't an author show that there's more to someone than just they happen to be a random guard? He makes the random a guard a character.

 

I personally got the impression that he was only there for a day or two, most of that time spent with Mat, but that may have been my mistake. Either way, unless the character becomes important in the book, an author shouldn't waste time describing him. Some one else pointed out that he becomes important later on, so maybe it's forgivable(though I wonder what was so important about him being introduced in this book. Nothing important seems to have happened concerning him, so why couldn't he have been introduced in the book where he'd make an impact?), but it felt entirely random and pointless here.

 

You might be disappointed to learn that Mat does not get tortured and killed by Questioners. However, from book 3 onwards, he starts becoming many people's favourite chracter. As for Nynaeve, she is indeed insecure. And not without reason. She was given power at a young age, and looked even younger than her years. If she tried to rule by consensus, she'd just get shoved into the background, so she had to be bossy. Now, she's had all her authority stripped away, in the big, wide world beyond Emond's Field. Despite her insecurity, she is still awesome. And of course, it's not like insecure women don't exist in real life, is it? Do you consider all of them tobe pathetic as well? Despite that, she is still a very capable young woman.

 

So long as something happens that stops Mat from screwing up everything he touches, I'm good. And it's not so much the insecurity as much as the feeble attempts to appear not to be so. As a Wisdom, even if she had to be bossy to get her way, she should have learned that some things do not matter. Acting casual about seeing a grand city, even when your awed by it, is absolutely pointless. It gives you no power over Moiraine by acting so, it impresses no one. This is petty behavior expected from a child who thinks too much of him/herself. And I consider that to be pathetic.

 

You can sometimes tell a bad person from a good by their appearance. Where Moiraine would be described as expressionless and the darkfriend as cold could be a lot in part from their eyes. You can tell a lot about a person from their eyes, whether they are lying or faking a mood. "A smile that doesn't touch his eyes." It's used fairly often in the series.

 

I honestly don't believe that because different people have different ways of expressing themselves. To know when a person is faking, they have to be a VERY bad liar, or you have to know the person fairly well to understand their body language. There is no real reason that the girl, who had not attacked them at that point, has cold eyes while Moiraine's are expressionless.

 

-Everything makes sense/gets better with time. Later in the series you find out the Dark One is not everything the 'good' characters think he is. It actually gets really complex trying to figure out anything about the Dark One, he isn't just a cliche 'evil' god. Yes, the first book makes it seem that way, but you only get PoV's from 'good' characters throughout EotW.

 

This I like. Really looking forward to that.

 

-Perception is key throughout the series. If you know and trust someone you will always think of them in a more positive light than strangers. For all we know, Tam could have shifty eyes as well, but he is looked up at by all the Emond's Fielders and no one is likely to even think about them. Padan Fain is just a rat-like man, that's not just because he is 'evil', others who turn out to be 'good' are described this way too. Everyone has those first thoughts on people based on how they look, sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. You were right this once, but don't expect it to happen every time.

 

Maybe it's like that throughout the series, but it definitely wasn't like that throughout the first book. Every bad character was described with a negative attribute, before Rand knows they are bad guys, and neutral characters, just as much strangers as the bad guys, are described with neutrally. The sole exception I can think of was that noobish darkfriend that tried to talk to rand and mat into joining the dark side.

 

-Go into a cemetery a pick up some flowers laying on a grave and take them home. This will feel wrong to you because you know exactly where they came from, but if you give them to your girlfriend she'll love them. It's all about perception, I think RJ uses it perfectly.

 

They honestly wouldn't. Not to me. I'm not a very moral person. If I were to do that, I'd have a reason that justified to it to me, such as "I'm too lazy to go to the flower shop." and it wouldn't bother me. But, hypothetically speaking, when I do do things that bother me morally, I always think of my actions as bad, things I chose to do. Flowers are flowers, what they are isn't going to change depending on where I took them from. But the act of taking them from another person is what would feel wrong.

 

-I don't know where I heard this, but studies show that an average man's conversation is only 15% based on another person. Whereas a woman's is 90% based on other people, think about those percentages for a second. This I also think RJ captured wonderfully. That's starting to change, but I remember hearing a friend was dating someone in high school and just accepting it on hearsay, never asking them or caring to find out. That's the average reaction for a guy, or atleast it used to be.

 

Average talk and rumors? Sure, I'd buy that. But not mentioning things like the whole innkeep sequence where lightning just happened to strike the appropriate time and place is unbelievable to an extreme, especially when these aren't normal circumstances and the Moiraine would probably want to know all the details of what they've been up to. Especially when she finds out they have already been hiding something like the dagger from her. You need to understand that this isn't high school, it's pretty much a military extraction operation. I expect it to be run with some efficiency, and that includes detailed reports.

 

-Again, Rand, Perrin, and Mat are best friends, they trust each other and if one of them doesn't want to talk about something they leave it be. In the next few books it is extremely obvious from Perrin's PoV's that he really doesn't want ANYONE knowing about his eyes, not even someone of extreme importance to him whose name I won't mention for spoiler reasons.

 

We know Perrin doesn't want people to see, but Rand doens't really know that, or atleast never made it clear. It'd make more sense if Rand to ask about it, but Perrin deflected the question, then Rand left it alone. The way it is, Rand just comes off as annoying by constantly noticing his eyes but never asking about them. But I guess I'll accept that.

 

-Rand is apparently just a hot 18-19 year old guy. Surely you saw stuff like this happen in high school, freshman/sophomore instantly girls falling for senior/junior boys. Also, these things play out over the course of the entire series, unimportant things become important and vice-versa.

 

Don't mind this too much, it's just me being envious and bitter. :'(

 

-Rand's storyline declines, then inclines, then declines and inclines again throughout the series, you'll have plenty of mixed emotions about him. Mat's storyline is on an ever-inclining streak, he get's cooler and cooler as the story progresses. Perrin's storyline remains the coolest until the second half of the series, then it drops sharply, unfortunately.

 

This is worrying. I really like Perrin. Rand will probably annoy me, because I don't like characters who are inconsistent. Oh well, if nothing else then Mat should be good atleast. Actually, I heard that if you want to, you can stop reading the series at Book 6, and just leave the final battle to your imagination. Is this true?

 

[Hadilmir]

It's alright, you've got atleast four more books of Perrin being awesome. I hope you stick with the series that long atleast.  ;)

 

Really the first books sticks out in the series. I'm probably not alone in saying that it is ingeniously well-written in an odd way. On the first read-through instead of drawing you in with sheer epic-ness it draws you along into the series, it makes the characters seem human and gives you a feeling that you should atleast find out what happens to them later in the series. After you have read more of the series and you reread EotW your mind will be blown be the extreme foreshadowing of the entire series. There are hints about events throughout the entire series hidden throughout the book. Unimportant things become important and vice-versa.

 

One unimportant foreshadowing that doesn't spoil anything is in the fourth chapter of EotW. Thom juggles six colored balls, red, white, black, blue, green, and yellow. He starts with red, white, and black. These are Rand-Red, Perrin-White, and Mat-Black. They are joined by a blue ball, Moiraine and then a green one, Egwene. The final ball is yellow, Nynaeve. These colors become very important to each character later in the series though you already know how blue is important to Moiraine. Now, that is just two unimportant paragraphs of the fourth chapter of EotW and stuff like that is hidden everywhere. It really will blow your mind after reading farther into the series.

 

As for 'evil' characters being obviously evil, I'll say it again. You've been lucky so far, don't expect it to happen often. A good deal of 'evil' looking people aren't what they appear and vice-versa, The Great Hunt will make this all clear.  :D

 

Also, Nynaeve gets better too, but that takes a very long time... I think I'm getting your point, looking back every time I thought about a specific problem I had with the series it would persist for several more books and then stop abruptly. Everything in the series is 'just wait' because it's basically not telling a story, it's building up to a singular climax that is so vast it needs a full thirteen books as it's rising action.

 

If you stop at book six you will miss far too much. Books 7-9 are slow-paced, but the books 10-12 are epic because of them, you can't skip them and expect 10-12 to make much sense.

[King_Killer0]

I'm almost tempted to ask what happens to Perrin that he stops being awesome. Is it possible to explain it without spoilers?

 

And that bit of foreshadowing is muddied somewhat by the exclusion of a certain Warder.  :D

 

But, no, I kid. Yeah, that's pretty insane foreshadowing. I look forward to reading the rest of it and rereading to find all the foreshadowing.

 

Anyway, I probably will continue reading if the series ups the quality later on. But like I said, I have a backlog I need to take care of first, and then I will get back to this.