The power of values and what are YOUR values?

[yankee]

Hi @ll,

 

there are plenty of darkfriends in Randland. I always wondered why you would want to become a darkfriend. After all those people were not born as darkfriends. And I think that there is a good reason not to become one: Friendship. It is unlikely that you encounter friendship along darkfriends. They are more likely to kill each othe due to the competition between them. No one to trust, no friends. This sounds awfully frustrating.

Of course beeing a darkfriend opens up better opportunities to humiliate and torture other people. Or have other questionable kinds of power over them. I can see that for a sadist it's quite a good idea to swear to the dark one. But all the rest?

 

Additionally I thought about the White Towers struggle with "the blacks". I think it is a major mistake of the Aes Sedai that they don't seem to have values. Most of the Aes Sedai don't even seem to know the meaning of the very term they use to name themselves: /servents of all/. It does imply that the Aes Sedai once HAD values. What happend to those? What is there now (or say just before the dragon kicked into action)? Let me think:

- Men who can channel suck and must be gentled

- Wilders suck

- The White Tower MUST be the only institution that teaches the one power. Everyone who has a different opinion sucks.

That sounds pretty negative to me, does it not? What positive thing is there for Aes Sedai to give an orientation for choosing action? I can't blame anyone for thinking that the Aes Sedai just want to be something special and everything they do, they do just to prove to themselves and everyone else that they actually are special. And they don't give a damn about the rest of the world. Actually I have the impression that's at least how most Aes Sedai behave.

I recently learned that IBM has values. And thinking about it, there are many companies out there that have at least a link called "philosophy" on their web page that explains something that can remotely be understood as values. I think the white Tower should make a jam, just like IBM did it and involve each and every Aes Sedai in building common values for all Aes Sedai.

 

I would not want to become a darkfriend and I came to the conclusion that this is because friendship is a very important value to me. And I believe that the White Tower (as a showcase for the rest of the world for that matter) would be much better off in its fight against the blacks (not to mention the raise of appreciation by the rest of the world and the speed up of the process of decision making) if they would have values to build a stronger community. Values to believe in. Values that its members don't want to betray by becoming a darkfriend.

 

Anyway: Values for me are especially friendship, trust, craftsmanship (I hope I got the right word for it. I mean building something that I can look upon an be proud of what I have build (does not need to be a tangible good; Can be piece of software that I coded, or even less touchable: A relation or a team that I brought together).

Three good reasons not to become a darkfriend by the way ;-).

 

What do you think about this? And what are your values?

 

EDIT: 2xspelling mistakes

[dokfeelg00d]

If I am not mistaken, I believe most Darkfriends do not "choose" their path.  They are threatened or tricked or coerced into declaring for the DO.  Regardless of values when your family and life are threatened and the escape is something that doesn't seem so major at the time... It is tricky to tell what is going on.  You also have some of the Forsaken who are masters of compulsion that can turn anyone to the dark one without any effort and make them think that they made the best choice ever.

 

[Durinax]

whoo darkfriends! They have awesome keg parties

[scion9]

We don't actually know that much about Darkfriends really.  Given Paitr from EotW, who has his nose broken by Mat, and is later hung in Amadicia by Whitecloaks along side a man he claims is his Uncle it's very possible that being a Darkfriend is indeed something that can run in a family; and that makes a certain amount of sense.  Then we have Jaichim Carridin though, who hopes that his favorite sister didn't learn that he was a Darkfriend before she was killed by Fades.

 

We know that the penalties for being a Darkfriend are very stiff pretty much everywhere though, so anyone propositioned into joining that society and refuses is going to wind up dead, and watched very closely for a long time even if they accept; lest the expose fellow Darkfriends to the authorities.

 

We know that the Forsaken have been sealed away for a long time, and the Dark One has had little influence on the world except for the handful of years Ishamael was free over the past three thousand years.  Most people don't believe in Trollocs or Fades.  Being a Darkfriend is likely something that isn't terribly serious for a lot of people.  Of course it got serious real quick in the events of the books, and you have inept Darkfriend peasants like Paitr who don't seem all that thrilled about their oaths to the Great Lord once he gets Fades knocking on his door in the night.

 

I imagine that for very long stretches of time becoming a Darkfriend functioned a lot like various other real life "secret" societies, command was probably very decentralized, and local groups had their own rituals and rites required of members.  Being a member probably involved helping each other out much more than it did backbiting, or even promises of supernatural goodies from the Dark One.  I mean, a lot of Darkfriends get into some very prominent positions for their to be little cooperation.  We see the backbiting at the heights of power where leaders are being constantly shifted by the Forsaken, but the command structure seems to still be fairly stable otherwise.  Jaichim Carridin bows before Old Cully due to the latter's standing among Darkfriends, even though Carridin is being directly ordered Forsaken and Fades.  

 

I agree about the Aes Sedai though.  Their underlying philosophy is one that dictates superiority over others based on being trained, and sealed to the White Tower.  Being trained by the White Tower and raised to the Shawl means being born with the ability channel, of a specific gender, and ranking within their society is based on strength in the Power to top it off.  At it's root that means they believe in supremacy by birthright, which smacks at the sensibilities of modern audiences.

[Shadow Rider]

>>>>>>>>>>> Darkfriends Wanted <<<<<<<<<<<

 

Sick of those meddlesome Aes Sedai?

Had enough of being passed up for that Promotion?

Sick of the Rich & Powerful using you for a rug?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Want Power & Riches for yourself?

But don't want to work for it?

Have you always known you're better than everyone else?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Join Darkfriends....

Become a minion of The Great Lord

& get that Promotion tomorrow!

Use others to do your bidding...

Kill those who've mistreated you.

Gain Wealth & Power...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Requirements

Greedy...

Scheming minded...

Arrogant...

Advantages

Sinister looks

Two faced

Cowardice

Applications must be in writing and sent to....

shadow_rider@thakandar.com  

or.....

Shadow Rider

666 Shayol Ghul ave

The Blight

c/o The Great lord

 

"Be on the team that will eventually win"

 

Note* Failure could mean being thrown in a Trolloc cook pot.

 

 

 

[yankee]

If I am not mistaken, I believe most darkfriends do not "choose" their path.  They are threatened or tricked or coerced into declaring for the DO.  Regardless of values when your family and life are threatened and the escape is something that doesn't seem so major at the time...

That is an interesting theory. I want to believe it since it would mean that there are waaaay fewer people who would join the shadow by their own will. But I don't think that it is that easy. Unfortunately I don't know of any evidence either way.

 

We don't actually know that much about Darkfriends really.  Given Paitr from EotW, who has his nose broken by Mat, and is later hung in Amadicia by Whitecloaks along side a man he claims is his Uncle it's very possible that being a Darkfriend is indeed something that can run in a family;

Yes, there are darkfriend families. But what are they like? Would they kill each other if need be?

We know that the penalties for being a Darkfriend are very stiff pretty much everywhere though, so anyone propositioned into joining that society and refuses is going to wind up dead, and watched very closely for a long time even if they accept; lest the expose fellow Darkfriends to the authorities.

Wich I think is a problem. It might be better to treat darkfriends like a drug adict. Build up institutions that study them, that study the effects on a person and that try to help them to return to the light. Next to the help this could be in fighting darkfriends this would finally to something about the complete lack of intelligence along those lines. The fight against darkfriends is against an enemy that hardly anybody knows very much about.

 

We know that the Forsaken have been sealed away for a long time, and the Dark One has had little influence on the world except for the handful of years Ishamael was free over the past three thousand years.  Most people don't believe in Trollocs or Fades.  Being a Darkfriend is likely something that isn't terribly serious for a lot of people.  Of course it got serious real quick in the events of the books, and you have inept Darkfriend peasants like Paitr who don't seem all that thrilled about their oaths to the Great Lord once he gets Fades knocking on his door in the night.

Another logical consequence of the lack of intelligence and thus knowledge about darkfriends? Paitr might not be a darkfriend if he knew beforehand what he was getting himself into... Yes, you may be right that being a darkfriend was likely not much of a deal in recent times before the time when the books start to tell the story, but I guess that there are still people joining on a daily basis. Perhaps even more than before??

 

I imagine that for very long stretches of time becoming a Darkfriend functioned a lot like various other real life "secret" societies, command was probably very decentralized, and local groups had their own rituals and rites required of members.  Being a member probably involved helping each other out much more than it did backbiting, or even promises of supernatural goodies from the Dark One.

At least the helping each other out-part should be something to find among people of the light. Some of the people seem to have forgotten and that's why I think they should finally think about their values and life them. If the shadow has finally become better at helping each other than the light, where do we end up then? In the wold of the wheel of time it is easily defined who is a darkfriend and who is not since we have this neat thing with sai'tan. But projecting this in the real world I would start thinking about how to find who actually are the "good guys"· And if it come to this, I think that the good guys made a serious mistake in demonstrating that they are the good guys.

 

@Shadow Rider:

Thank you that made me laugh :-). Very creative *thumbs up*.

 

By the way there is one thing I forgot to include here. I think that's a problem that Rand has: He forgot about his values. I can't remember that anybody talked to him about it. I would actually like to write some more about that. Why isn't there a spoiler tag?

 

And I am still interested in what YOUR values are :-)

 

 

Edit: Still not allowed to post TGS spoilers.

[Majsju]

Who would want to become a darkfriend? People whose greed is strong enough for them to view all kinds of nasty actions acceptable means when it comes to getting what they want. People who believe that by becoming darkfriends, they will get power once the DO breaks free.

 

Just look at our world. Greed and egoism trumps values for most people.

[White_star]

Minor clarification  :),

...Given Paitr from EotW, who has his nose broken by Mat,, ...

Actually Rand did that, Mat still had vision problems.

[Shadow Rider]

@Shadow Rider:

Thank you that made me laugh :-). Very creative *thumbs up*.

 

Your welcome...

 

Being a Darkfriend is all about greed for power & wealth, vanity doing as little as possible.... basically The Seven Deadly Sins....Greed,Sloth,Lust,Gluttony,Pride,Envy & Roth.

Darkfriends don't want Glory, coz that usually involves sacrifice.

 

 

 

 

As for me.... My values are my Family & Friends.....then my car.....then work...then my Cat....then work.

 

[scion9]

Actually Rand did that, Mat still had vision problems.

 

Ah, too true.  Thanks for the clarification.