Ring of Tamyrlin still exists ? (spoilers)

[FarShainMael]

'He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.'

 

This is the prophecy that led Cadsuane to research Callandor, and her conclusion was the need for it to be used in a circle of three.

 

But what if she was wrong? It's been suggested elsewhere on these fora that the phrase 'three shall be one' may instead refer to the three ta'veren joining up in some way. The 'blade of light' may not be Callandor at all, but may be a blade of (the) Light. (We haven't seen this prophecy written down , only heard Min quote it.)

 

Could it be that Callandor is a red herring?  :o  :o

 

Perhaps it will be taken by Taim, who tries to use it.. and zaps himself!

 

[wipe]

He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more power, feeling as he had only twice before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain.

Then he drew in more.

He knew that much power would destroy him. He had stopped caring.

 

I don't beleive he held on to the source through an angreal but this statement is strange. Either it is a fault by Jordan or he's holding on through an sa'angreal or something is very strange in the Rand world:

 

Rand is drawing all he can through Callandor in this scene and is referring to two previous events. One with a sa'angreal; and that makes sense (CK vere more powerful and would let him tap much more without burning out). The other is very strange; he's supposed to have been able to draw as much unaided when he created Dragonmount. I find that highly unlikely actually. Every time burning yourself out it is described as pulling a little more than you are able to do at your maximum.

 

Sa'angreal is described as multiplying your ability many times (100??). Even if this number is two, that would mean 100% increase in strength. I find it strange that LTT would be able to increase his strenght to this level unaided just because he is despairing. I know people can do increadable feats when under extreme circumstances, but this is just to far fetched. How can one explain an exponentially enhanced ability to channel by emotion. When he channels through the CK he even thinks he might have channeled all of the male half during that session. It's not beleivable tha LTT could do anything close to that feat unaided.

 

If we accept the theory that he did it unaided we must also accept the possibility that a man that can lift 300 kg under normal circumstanses would be able to lift 600kg in dispair (and that is just doubeling, if it enhances a hundred times (as I think is stated in the text), he would be able to lift 30000kg; which seems a little unlikely. Maybe with some sort of hydraulic jack (sa'angreal) he would be able to).

 

Personally I think the statement is wrong. Would be strange tto make a world where you can draw a hundred times your natural ability if rightly motivated, and that is on top of allready beeing at the top of what is regarded as the maximum level a person can draw (as LTT was)

[FarShainMael]

At this point, Rand is channelling through the Choedan Kal with the access key (NOT Callandor), so he's certainly not unaided. He used the CK to cleanse saidin. When (as LTT) he crated Dragonmount, he wasn't using an s/t'a - unless he was wearing the Ring, and we don't know much about that.

 

As for the weightlifting point, there is such a thing as 'hysterical strength' where a person can indeed exceed their normal physical limitations in a situation in which their life, or the life of a child or a loved one, is endangered:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strength

 

Physical injury is likely to result, as what seems to be happening is that the physiological mechanisms which prevent damage are temporarily suspended.

 

[Luckers]

Strength in the power is not muscular strength. There are some analogies that can be made, but that is it. The two states are not directly comprable. Channeling is like being a hose, you can force more water through even if it bursts, but it is the water doing the thing, not the hose--it is merely the channel. With lifting weights it is the muscles which are doing the thing, not the weights, and thus there are limits. The hose can burst and the water still flows, whereas if the muscles fail the weight drops. End of game.

 

Personally I think the statement is wrong. Would be strange tto make a world where you can draw a hundred times your natural ability if rightly motivated, and that is on top of allready beeing at the top of what is regarded as the maximum level a person can draw (as LTT was)

 

You would be wrong, this is states as possible in the series many times. The one with Rand aside, there is Ellisande, and not to mention Lews Therin himself.

 

He drew on the True Source deeply, and still more deeply, like a man dying of thirst. Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided; his skin felt as if it were aflame. Straining, he forced himself to draw more, tried to draw it all.

 

He reaches his limit, and then forces himself to continue to draw more. This shows clearly that you can exceed your own strength limit. Reaching beyond it will kill you, but that is not a limit--you do not die immediately upon doing so and can reach far beyond your own strength before you pay the final price.

[Nightstrike]

I think the "more than he could unaided" part could mean that he had an angeal or sa'angreal.

 

[insane_ashaman]

I think the "more than he could unaided" part could mean that he had an angeal or sa'angreal.

 

 

So he had an angreal or sa'angreal that didn't have the buffer to prevent overdrawing? Did it get vaporized when the bar of light struck LTT?

[Nightstrike]

I forgot about that... Flaws apparently happened, but he probably didn't have such a flawed one to work with(?).

[Luckers]

Mmm. He was the First Amongst Servants--if anyone could have quality products, he would--especially going into a 'be all and end all' strike on Shayol Ghould (from which he returned to slay his family.

[yoniy0]

So you guys think he was burned out? And that made the bolt of energy? Do you have any other example to go on, or is it just the phrase 'burning out' seem to suggest that if you really push it, you mihgt actually burn? I mean, we have no other indication that if you draw more of the Power than you can safely manage anything at all would happen except you might die or lose your ability. Actual fire is not mentioned anywhere, except at that case.

And yes, I agree that the phrasing doesn't necessarily imply he wasn't using an angreal. I mean, that's certainly hinted, but only that.

[Luckers]

To reiterate, its uncertain if he was burned out--certainly he was on the point of being so, due to his drawing too much--but whether he burned himself out before he died or whether he died a split second before he burned himself out remains unknown.

[Hadilmir]

1. Lews Therin had the second most powerful Sa'Angreal

2. Lews Therin shattered the buffer on an Angreal or weak Sa'Angreal

3. Lews Therin had a flawed Sa'Angreal

4. Odd Hysterical-Strength parallel exists for the One Power

5. Rand is mistaken

 

I think 2 or 4 are most likely. Especially not 1 and 3 since Lews Therin distrusted the extreme power of the Choedan Kal, unless he found it when he got back home. 5 doesn't seem likely either, but destroying a planet and creating a mountain are different magnitudes of power. Unless Lews Therin created two mountains, and the bar of liquid light was infinite in both directions. A house sized hole burned completely through the planet could create two massive volcanoes, yes? Unlikely though.

 

As for 4, are there any threads on how channelers access the OP that have found a good theory or has no one ever discussed it with enough detail? (Which I highly doubt)

[Luckers]

Once again, it is 4, though it is not odd.

 

Strength in the power is not muscular strength. There are some analogies that can be made, but that is it. The two states are not directly comprable. Channeling is like being a hose, you can force more water through even if it bursts, but it is the water doing the thing, not the hose--it is merely the channel. With lifting weights it is the muscles which are doing the thing, not the weights, and thus there are limits. The hose can burst and the water still flows, whereas if the muscles fail the weight drops. End of game.

[insane_ashaman]

So you guys think he was burned out? And that made the bolt of energy? Do you have any other example to go on, or is it just the phrase 'burning out' seem to suggest that if you really push it, you mihgt actually burn? I mean, we have no other indication that if you draw more of the Power than you can safely manage anything at all would happen except you might die or lose your ability. Actual fire is not mentioned anywhere, except at that case.

And yes, I agree that the phrasing doesn't necessarily imply he wasn't using an angreal. I mean, that's certainly hinted, but only that.

 

Why couldn't the bar of light/fire be him being burned out. I'm reiterating what Luckers said on pg 1 of this thread, the Aes Sedai Queen from Manetheren (name escapes me) is the example that quickly comes to mind as far as drawing too much and eventually exploding. She knew the only way to stop the Trolloc horde was self destruction through OP overdose. If LTT was that strong in the OP, then creating dragonmount from an overdose is plausible. Yes, the wording is odd, but what else would have happened, did Elan suddenly decide to kill him and leave him with a really cool tombstone? Did the creator step in and actually do everything?  

 

 

[yoniy0]

What I'm trying to say the last few posts, Luckers and insane_ashaman, is that you seem to assume the effects we've seen when LTT and Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan died are an extreme version of someone burning themselves out. I'm suggesting that perhaps it's not the fact that they're holding more Power than they can safely manage that's responsible, but the objective AMOUNT of Power they're holding. It's unlikely, I know, but possible nonetheless. And if so, we have no conclusive indication that LTT wasn't using an angreal when he died.

[Grimtone]

I think the "more than he could unaided" part could mean that he had an angeal or sa'angreal.

 

 

Actually the quote is more than he could CHANNEL unaided. I think that perhaps is a stumbling block in some peoples reasoning. The act of drawing the OP vs Channeling. I think that the ability to draw on the OP and the limits of the amount you can draw and hold are seperate from what one can actually channel into a weave. So he didn't need an angreal or sa'angreal to draw that much. He would have needed one to Channel that much though.

 

As for the physics involved in the bolt of light and his actual death... I'm just as stumped as a lot of the rest of you. And as someone else said... I don't really think it'll be material. Sometimes you don't have to know the mechanics behind it... long as it looks cool and reads well.

[Random Man]

"More than he could channel unaided" means more than he could channel safely without the aid of an angreal or sa'angreal.

 

If he'd had either of those and had been using them, he'd been buffered against drawing too much anyway. It's an inherent feature in those devices.

 

How much a person can draw safely depends on an individual's strength. Past that, once you draw too much, you can't control it -- and it will destroy you. Kind of like slamming bottle after bottle of tequila. After a certain point, you've had too much to handle, but you can still physically keep on drinking. And just as with a person who can drink a little too much -- or WAY too much -- the same can happen with the One Power.

[Hadilmir]

If he'd had either of those and had been using them, he'd been buffered against drawing too much anyway. It's an inherent feature in those devices.

 

Do we know that though? Has any Aes Sedai mentioned burning out causing anything but the severing or falling over dead? Perhaps Ellisande and Lews Therin shattered the buffers on normal angreal and that caused the major damage we see caused by their deaths. I'm fairly certain that since both were important channelers during times of war an angreal would be on their person at all times, logically. Both were apparently very strong channelers, perhaps you must be on a certain magnitude of strength to break an angreal's buffer.

 

There's no proof against or for it, so live with it. We probably won't ever figure out which is right anywho.

[MikeRiley]

Didn't Aginor draw more of the Power than he could handle and simply burned himself to ash for it? In the other examples given in this thread there was some major destruction going on. Whenever I read about these events in the books I always assumed with their last breath they directed the power - much the same way Rand did at the beginning of The Dragon Reborn when he caused the earthquake - and did what they did as a last act. Ellisande destroyed a trolloc army and in doing so destroyed herself and her city. Lews Therin drew a suicidal amount of the power and killed himself directing a lightning bolt for that purpose. The wonder girls are told repeatedly throughout the beginning of the series of the dangers of drawing too much of the power. They are told as if it actually happens to initiates of the Tower, and the Tower itself still stands, so either these people that burned themselves out could barely channel the power in the first place or there's something more going on with the listed events and the flows actually are being directed.

 

To clarify the earthquake bit, I don't have the book handy and can't remember the exact quote, but Rand said he had so much of the power in him and he had to direct it somewhere or be burned. Come to think of it, that might have been during the trolloc attack later that night when he set the trees on fire.

[Random Man]

Yes, we do know. angreal and sa'angreal are designed to buffer the user against drawing too much of the One Power -- much like a person who enters a link is buffered against drawing too much. This has been well established. Callandor is an exception because it is a flawed sa'angreal. That is, in fact, one of its flaws, as pointed out by Cadsuane in PoD -- it lacks the buffer.

 

Unless Ellisande and Lews Therin were also using flawed angreal (and why in the Light would powerful individuals be using knowingly flawed objects of the Power?) they would have been buffered against drawing too much; therefore, they were not using them.

 

Additionally, the phrase "more than he could channel unaided" precisely means more than he could channel without the aid of such an object. The definition of "unaided" in this context is: without the aid of an object of power that allows one to draw more than he could "unaided."

 

There's no need to make this more complicated. Blowing up yourself and several additional square miles is a potential consequence of drawing too much power.

 

[Hadilmir]

Didn't Aginor draw more of the Power than he could handle and simply burned himself to ash for it?

What? Rand destroyed him... Poof

 

What I'm saying, Random Man, is that the flawless female Choedan Kal melted from overuse. What if there are limits to the buffer formed by an angreal. If you can strain your own link to Saidin then it shouldn't come as a surprise that you can strain a link through an object. If there's a breaking point well beyond what most channelers can strain the buffer to, then it's not flawed, since it can't reach this strain unless the channeler is incredibly strong and straining themselves as well.

 

You have a point on the unaided part though, but I don't think it rules anything out specifically. It depends on how you interpret 'unaided'.

 

*I'm not going to press the point unless you make an argument though, since I have a hard time convincing myself on the weird things I come up with...

[Random Man]

 

 

What I'm saying, Random Man, is that the flawless female Choedan Kal melted from overuse. What if there are limits to the buffer formed by an angreal.

 

You have a point on the unaided part though, but I don't think it rules anything out specifically. It depends on how you interpret 'unaided'.

 

While the female Choden Kal melted from oversue, it was a greater worry to Cadsuane that Nynaeve would die from sheer exhaustion from channeling than from wielding more than she could safely. Overuse is a different problem. I can't tell you I'm certain that the inherent buffers can't be broken, but if you consider that Nynaeve wasn't burnt out or worse when her Choden Kal melted upon itself, obviously these buffers are pretty strong. It's making it too complicated to try to assume that those who blew up large areas after losing control both happened to also be using angreals that both happened to be flawed or able to break.

 

When one is talking about channeling unaided, that specifically means without an object of Power that enhances the amount one can wield. That is the definition of "unaided" when talking about channeling the One Power.

[Hadilmir]

When one is talking about channeling unaided, that specifically means without an object of Power that enhances the amount one can wield. That is the definition of "unaided" when talking about channeling the One Power.

Fine, I'll go pout in a corner.  ;)

[Random Man]

I hope it's a comfy corner, Light knows I've been there before.

[bronnt]

 

 

What I'm saying, Random Man, is that the flawless female Choedan Kal melted from overuse. What if there are limits to the buffer formed by an angreal.

 

You have a point on the unaided part though, but I don't think it rules anything out specifically. It depends on how you interpret 'unaided'.

 

While the female Choden Kal melted from oversue, it was a greater worry to Cadsuane that Nynaeve would die from sheer exhaustion from channeling than from wielding more than she could safely. Overuse is a different problem. I can't tell you I'm certain that the inherent buffers can't be broken, but if you consider that Nynaeve wasn't burnt out or worse when her Choden Kal melted upon itself, obviously these buffers are pretty strong. It's making it too complicated to try to assume that those who blew up large areas after losing control both happened to also be using angreals that both happened to be flawed or able to break.

 

When one is talking about channeling unaided, that specifically means without an object of Power that enhances the amount one can wield. That is the definition of "unaided" when talking about channeling the One Power.

 

Who's to say that the female CK melted solely from overuse?  It had been buried halfway into a mountain for over 3000 years.  There's no way of knowing what might adversely affect something like the Choeden Kal. It could have been damaged sometime through the long years it lay there, and upon being used, it began to destroy itself as a consequence, even though the buffers protecting Nynaeve remained intact.  At least, I interpret it that way-there's no reason the female half should have been destroyed from overuse while the male survived, considering that the amount of saidin used was much, much greater than saidar.  Plus, saidin was tainted-if anything should have destroyed a CK, it should have been channeling that much tainted saidin.

 

Not that I'm sure this is relevant, but you did mention a theory about why the CK was destroyed.

[Hadilmir]

Who's to say that the female CK melted solely from overuse?  It had been buried halfway into a mountain for over 3000 years.  There's no way of knowing what might adversely affect something like the Choeden Kal. It could have been damaged sometime through the long years it lay there, and upon being used, it began to destroy itself as a consequence, even though the buffers protecting Nynaeve remained intact.  At least, I interpret it that way-there's no reason the female half should have been destroyed from overuse while the male survived, considering that the amount of saidin used was much, much greater than saidar.  Plus, saidin was tainted-if anything should have destroyed a CK, it should have been channeling that much tainted saidin.

 

Not that I'm sure this is relevant, but you did mention a theory about why the CK was destroyed.

...Umm, the Male CK was also buried? It was only moving Saidin, while the Female CK was being used as a press. The Female CK may not have used close to as much of the power, but it's function produced a magnitude higher level of stress on the Female CK.

 

So, one of us is wrong. We have no proof either way, so... now what?