Lord of Chaos

[Guest cwestervelt]

Saidar appears to provide little or no protection against Compulsion. We've seen several examples of that already. Moghedien turned Liandrin into a snivelling toady using Compulsion while Liandrin was channelling at Moghedien. Liandrin actually struck first and failed. It was part of her "lesson" on who was boss when they were in Tanchico.

 

I suspect holding Saidin works because men already appear less subject to Compulsion. Saidin just enhances that natural ability. It was one of the quirks about Compulsion that Verin mused on. She found it interesting that it wasn't very effective against men even though it was pieced together from Novises and Accepted that generally used it to get gifts from daddy or kisses from the boys. She contributed it to an inate distrust of Aes Sedai among men, but maybe it's something more than that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Saidar appears to provide little or no protection against Compulsion. We've seen several examples of that already. Moghedien turned Liandrin into a snivelling toady using Compulsion while Liandrin was channelling at Moghedien. Liandrin actually struck first and failed. It was part of her "lesson" on who was boss when they were in Tanchico.

 

Yes, yes, I've already acknowledged the facts as they exist in the text.

 

I suspect holding Saidin works because men already appear less subject to Compulsion. Saidin just enhances that natural ability. It was one of the quirks about Compulsion that Verin mused on. She found it interesting that it wasn't very effective against men even though it was pieced together from Novises and Accepted that generally used it to get gifts from daddy or kisses from the boys. She contributed it to an inate distrust of Aes Sedai among men, but maybe it's something more than that.

 

The VAST majority of the men Verin was musing on could not channel. That's why it seems to me that the protection is in the person, not the Source, unless the Source is being actively woven, not just held. Strong wills can shake off Compulsion, given time and opportunity (case in point, Morgase Trakand). But then ... Warders are pretty strong willed, on the whole, so that doesn't make much sense either, unless their trust of their Aes Sedai renders their strength of will immaterial ... yeah, this whole thing just doesn't seem internally logical to me. (Which doesn't mean that I'm denying the fact that Jordan wrote the books that way, I realize this is "factual" in Randland, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to be a rational system to me.)

[Guest cwestervelt]

That is why the Aes Sedai needs to be so delicate. If the Warder suspects, the games over.

[demonspawn]

I'm sorry but I can't recall any time throughout the WoT series that there has been any insunuation that any Aes Sedai has used "Compulsion" on a Warder.

My feelings are that it is more of an emotional "Link" rather than compulsion.

 

This stems from the fact that all Aes Sedai find Comulsion repulsive.

[Rumor]

I believe it is not exactly the same thing, but we have direct confirmation that either the Aes Sedai-Warder bond allows for at least some minor form of compulsion or that Alanna's bonding of Rand was different and "should" have allowed her to compel him (this I doubt given the feel of the quotes involved...as in, it seemed normal for her to be able to compel him and abnormal that she could not).

 

The bonding between and Aes Sedai and a Warder has not been fully explained, but I believe for the most part that it is more what you are thinking of. But it does appear to create an increased chance that an Aes Sedai can compel her warder, which is likely not used much because of the Aes Sedai aversion to the concept of compulsion.

[drakhon]

Maybe I'm being over-sensitive to semantics, but I can't recall another instance of anyone, Forsaken or "modern", referring to simply seizing saidin as being "wrapped in" it.

 

Throwing back its head, the Draghkar bellowed, a shriek that seemed to pierce Moiraine's head with needles. Even wrapped in saidar she could feel it. Like a tree falling, the Draghkar toppled, one wing knocking Jaem to his knees. Lan sagged as if exhausted.

 

The Great Hunt, Chapter 22: Watchers

 

Not saidin, but that's ok for this purpose. At this point, all Moiraine had done was open herself to the Source.

[Luckers]

I suspect holding Saidin works because men already appear less subject to Compulsion. Saidin just enhances that natural ability. It was one of the quirks about Compulsion that Verin mused on. She found it interesting that it wasn't very effective against men even though it was pieced together from Novises and Accepted that generally used it to get gifts from daddy or kisses from the boys. She contributed it to an inate distrust of Aes Sedai among men, but maybe it's something more than that.

 

Yet the fact that its something she pieced together indicates to me that its more of a personal quirk resulting from her trying to adapt those weaves. We've seen Graendal compel men just fine, and with no indication of difference, Moghedian refers to compelling the cook in tSR with just the same casualness so again we know its not just that Graendal can do because she is so talented at Compulsion. The other forsaken would have needed to compel men to get their way in different nations as well.

 

Yeah, I know fellas. Its just that we're talking about holding saidin as protection, so the nature of the two sides of the Source becomes involved, at least in my mind. I mean, if its simply the state of the person that offers protection or not, then it shouldn't matter if he/she is holding the Source or not.

 

It certainly does, but again its not trying to control the source, so its not the differences in CHANNELING that is importing, but the difference in holding it. That is the significance of the word 'wrapped'. It indicates that it is something about simply holding saidin that grants the protection. The most likely thing is that its chaotic. Trying to reach into a mind wrapped in saidin would be like reaching into a tempest, whereas trying to reach into a mind wrapped in saidar would be like reaching into a tranquil pool... if you tried to influence the saidar it would become problamatic, but since your not, its not an issue.