Lord of Chaos

[Luckers]

I got the impression that the male bond allowed the men to actually bend the women to their will.

 

It does. The extra bit part of it adds the requirement that the women obey any command. the Aes Sedai version is weaker, it seems to require active channeling, and that the person being compelled not be aware of it.

 

The Aes Sedai's Warder bond allows them to Compel their Warder. They just aren't supposed to use it that way. However, there are apparently some problems when you bond someone stronger than yourself, such as when Alanna tried to Compel Rand with the bond, and failed completely. I don't know if the Asha'man bond has similar problems, although it would stand to reason that it does.

 

That wasn't because Rand was stronger. Rand was holding saidin at the time. In LoC, Sammael travels to Graendal's palace and releases the gateway but not saidin. He thinks about Graendal's tricks with compulsion, and how such tricks do not work on a man filled with saidin.

 

The question then becomes, is what Alanna and the Aes Sedai do actually compulsion. Despite the Aes Sedai's disdain for the practise, it seems likely. Both are weaves that result in the person doing what they say. The only difference is that the bond seems to be required for the obedience weave to work.

 

Moreover if simple strength were required then it seems likely Merise or Daigan would have commented by now. Merise especially holds a tight reign, and we know Narishma is stronger then her, because at one stage Taim came to Rand specifically to tell him of Narishma, and at later dates Rand has compared Narishma's strength to certain others amongst the Asha'man and with the exception of Flinn found him stronger. Since we know that men are on average stronger then women, and that the average woman in the tower isn't especially strong for women.

 

Finally, it would not work in vice-versa. We have seen Moghedian succeed in compelling Nynaeve and Elayne whilst they held the source, and Graendal succeed in compelling Moghedian and Cyndane (who is, i remind you, stronger then Graendal). Saidar does not seem to offer the same protection.

 

Additionally if it did then the second any of the bound Aes Sedai channeled they would have been free of the compellings. And again we have proof that it is not strength in that surely, amongst the fifty one sisters bonded, one of them must be stronger then the man that bonded them.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That wasn't because Rand was stronger. Rand was holding saidin at the time. In LoC, Sammael travels to Graendal's palace and releases the gateway but not saidin. He thinks about Graendal's tricks with compulsion, and how such tricks do not work on a man filled with saidin.

 

Then why hasn't Alanna done it since then? It seems to me that Sammael knew those weaves would not work while he was holding saidin because he knew how to counter them with the Power, not just because of the fact that he was holding saidin. I couldn't find that POV right off when I flipped through it though, so help me out with a quote here, or a chapter reference.

 

Moreover if simple strength were required then it seems likely Merise or Daigan would have commented by now. Merise especially holds a tight reign, and we know Narishma is stronger then her, because at one stage Taim came to Rand specifically to tell him of Narishma, and at later dates Rand has compared Narishma's strength to certain others amongst the Asha'man and with the exception of Flinn found him stronger. Since we know that men are on average stronger then women, and that the average woman in the tower isn't especially strong for women.

 

I always had the impression that Merise and company kept a tight rein on those men through discipline, and maybe oaths they had extracted, not using the bond to Compel their young men. For all his strength, Narishma is a young man, and Aes Sedai can usually make young men dance as they wish.

 

And again we have proof that it is not strength in that surely, amongst the fifty one sisters bonded, one of them must be stronger then the man that bonded them.

 

Um ... why? I mean, maybe, but why does it HAVE to be that way?

[drakhon]

She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind’s path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who ever lived.

He let the gateway vanish but held on to saidin; those tricks did not work on someone wrapped in the Source.

 

LoC, Chapter 6: Threads Woven of Shadow

 

It doesn't mention him weaving anything, but that doesn't mean he didn't. It also doesn't say specifically that "holding saidin" is the protection or that "a man" is protected but rather "someone wrapped in the Source".

 

I think we can say that Moghedien hit Nyneave and Elayne with Compulsion like a hammer, but the Warder bond Compulsion certain seems a more delicate use in the few instances we've seen it.

 

Perhaps simply holding the Source deflects the subtle uses of Compulsion but a full onslaught would require active defense or an actual shield of some type.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that the "extra bit" is exactly Compulsion or related to the Warder bond. It seems to be functionally equivalent to an oath to obey the bonder in all things given on the Oath Rod. Perhaps it can't work without being part of the Asha'man bond, but it seems more akin to the oath than the direct Compulsion used by the Warder bond.

[Luckers]

Then why hasn't Alanna done it since then? It seems to me that Sammael knew those weaves would not work while he was holding saidin because he knew how to counter them with the Power, not just because of the fact that he was holding saidin. I couldn't find that POV right off when I flipped through it though, so help me out with a quote here, or a chapter reference.

 

Because she literally has not done it since. The Warder bond requires you weave a weave of spirit to compel them. She has never tried again since she failed that first time. Look at the way she explains it to Kiruna.

 

And no, Sammael specifically said 'those tricks did not work on someone who was wrapped in the source.'

[LOC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 132]. If he had meant to counteract a weave with his own, he would have been preparing weaves, like he did in Rhavin's POV.

 

I always had the impression that Merise and company kept a tight rein on those men through discipline, and maybe oaths they had extracted, not using the bond to Compel their young men. For all his strength, Narishma is a young man, and Aes Sedai can usually make young men dance as they wish

 

So Romanda thought too, but Narishma was not nervous with them any more then i suspect he is with Merise. Look to Cadsuane's conversation with Merise, and tell me it doesn't look like it took compulsion to get Narishma's dragon pin off him. I know it's not certain, but i see it happening.

 

Um ... why? I mean, maybe, but why does it HAVE to be that way?

 

I did not say HAVE to, i said surely... and besides its simple logic. All of the men involved in bonding except Logain were dedicated, new to channeling and not yet at their full power. Even Flinn, who has been forced as much as anyone, and been there as long as anyone, is not yet at his full strength, strong though he may be now. All of the women with Toveine were chosen to take place in a struggle against men who could channel. We know that Desandre and Lemai in particular are very strong. The liklyhood of all of those fifty sisters being weaker then their bondmates is very small indeed.

 

And besides, Graendal is weaker then Cyndane.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And besides, Graendal is weaker then Cyndane.

 

Actually, Graendal said she was stronger than Cyndane, which is why she thinks Cyndane isn't Lanfear.

 

I did not say HAVE to, i said surely... and besides its simple logic. All of the men involved in bonding except Logain were dedicated, new to channeling and not yet at their full power. Even Flinn, who has been forced as much as anyone, and been there as long as anyone, is not yet at his full strength, strong though he may be now. All of the women with Toveine were chosen to take place in a struggle against men who could channel. We know that Desandre and Lemai in particular are very strong. The liklyhood of all of those fifty sisters being weaker then their bondmates is very small indeed.

 

Logain had time to plan. He knew the sisters were coming and ambushed them. It seems as likely to me that he chose Dedicated with considerable strength. He's been teaching them on his own, so they could be at the same level as full Asha'man without being awarded the Dragon by Taim.

 

So Romanda thought too, but Narishma was not nervous with them any more then i suspect he is with Merise. Look to Cadsuane's conversation with Merise, and tell me it doesn't look like it took compulsion to get Narishma's dragon pin off him. I know it's not certain, but i see it happening.

 

I'm sorry, it just doesn't look that way to me. It looks like she gave him an ultimatum, called him out on an oath of obedience maybe, but not Compusion. I can't really see any of the Asha'man sitting still for Compulsion ... they would treat their Sisters the way Rand treats Alanna.

 

Because she literally has not done it since. The Warder bond requires you weave a weave of spirit to compel them. She has never tried again since she failed that first time. Look at the way she explains it to Kiruna.

 

And no, Sammael specifically said 'those tricks did not work on someone who was wrapped in the source.'

[LOC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 132]. If he had meant to counteract a weave with his own, he would have been preparing weaves, like he did in Rhavin's POV.

 

Now that is an entirely reasonable explanation. So, it probably isn't based on strength. It just seems odd to me that simply touching saidin would provide immunity ... we haven't seen anything else that simply being in contact with the Source provides immunity to have we? And only works for one half? Odd ....

[Luckers]

Actually, Graendal said she was stronger than Cyndane, which is why she thinks Cyndane isn't Lanfear.

 

Actually what Graendal said was that Cyndane was weaker then Lanfear, and thats why she doesn't think she's Lanfear, which we find out from Aran'gar. On the matter of how their own strengths compare, we know that Cyndane is stronger. When Graendal first meets Cyndane she thinks that Cyndane was stronger then herself, and that that had been rare even in tha Age of Legends.

 

 

Logain had time to plan. He knew the sisters were coming and ambushed them. It seems as likely to me that he chose Dedicated with considerable strength. He's been teaching them on his own, so they could be at the same level as full Asha'man without being awarded the Dragon by Taim.

 

Same level of knowledge, yes, but not strength. Even forced Flinn isn't at his full strength, and he's been there longer then any of the Asha'men with Logain, been through a lot more too. Even Egwene isn't at her full strength yet, or rather she wasn't as of her conversation with Nicola. And she was forced much sooner on then even Flinn.

 

I'm sorry, its simply too improbable that every Asha'man just happened to be stronger then the sister he bonded. There are fifty of them.

 

I'm sorry, it just doesn't look that way to me. It looks like she gave him an ultimatum, called him out on an oath of obedience maybe, but not Compusion. I can't really see any of the Asha'man sitting still for Compulsion ... they would treat their Sisters the way Rand treats Alanna.

 

From Myrelle's thoughts we know the Gaidin arn't aware of being compelled.

 

Now that is an entirely reasonable explanation. So, it probably isn't based on strength. It just seems odd to me that simply touching saidin would provide immunity ... we haven't seen anything else that simply being in contact with the Source provides immunity to have we? And only works for one half? Odd ....

 

My guess is that its in the nature of saidin. The turbulence of it. The destructiveness of it. Anything trying to manipulate someone wrapped in that chaos would be swept aside like flotsam in a flood. Saidars different... calm... it doesn't cause the casual destruction that saidin does.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually what Graendal said was that Cyndane was weaker then Lanfear, and thats why she doesn't think she's Lanfear, which we find out from Aran'gar. On the matter of how their own strengths compare, we know that Cyndane is stronger. When Graendal first meets Cyndane she thinks that Cyndane was stronger then herself, and that that had been rare even in tha Age of Legends.

 

Ah crap, I was wrong.

 

From Myrelle's thoughts we know the Gaidin arn't aware of being compelled.

 

Well .... Myrelle was being VERY careful, so the Aes Sedai can keep them from being aware if they are VERY good at it ...

 

My guess is that its in the nature of saidin. The turbulence of it. The destructiveness of it. Anything trying to manipulate someone wrapped in that chaos would be swept aside like flotsam in a flood. Saidars different... calm... it doesn't cause the casual destruction that saidin does.

 

Actually, given their natures, I would have suspected that saidar would be LESS susceptible to Compulsion. To control saidar you have to surrender to it. When you try to force it is when it can destroy you. Saidin is controlled by forcing it to bend to your will. I know what we've seen in the text shows differently, but it's very odd to me, as it seems to contradict everything else we know about the nature of the two halves of the Power.

[Gentled Ben]

From Myrelle's thoughts, we know that the Aes Sedai must be delicate with the weave of Spirit, or else the warder WILL know that he's being compelled, and according to Asmo, men are stronger than women in the power in roughly the same ratio that they're stronger than women physically. It isn't hard to randomly line up fifty men who are physically stronger than fifty random women. Even though these women were probably chosen, at least in part, for their strength, it still isn't unreasonable to assume that they aren't as strong as the men. Channelers like Graendal and Lanfear, who are STRONG, are emphasized as being rare, even during the AOL.

[Luckers]

On the other hand to make the analogy exact you would have a bunch of boychildren maybe 14 or 16 months old standing next to full grown women. They arn't at their full strength. And we know that Desandre and Lemai are strong for Aes Sedai.

 

Actually, given their natures, I would have suspected that saidar would be LESS susceptible to Compulsion. To control saidar you have to surrender to it. When you try to force it is when it can destroy you. Saidin is controlled by forcing it to bend to your will. I know what we've seen in the text shows differently, but it's very odd to me, as it seems to contradict everything else we know about the nature of the two halves of the Power.

 

But the weave isn't trying to effect Saidar, which is calm and quite around the weave. It goes through touches the weave and withdraws. In men the saidin is turblent like a ocean in a storm, trying to get through to the weaver becomes impossible. At least thats my theory.

[RobertAlexWillis]

But the weave isn't trying to effect Saidar, which is calm and quite around the weave. It goes through touches the weave and withdraws. In men the saidin is turblent like a ocean in a storm, trying to get through to the weaver becomes impossible. At least thats my theory.

 

That still seems odd to me ... its been made clear that saidin CAN be mastered, forced, where saidar cannot. But ... meh ...

[drakhon]

That still seems odd to me ... its been made clear that saidin CAN be mastered, forced, where saidar cannot. But ... meh ...

 

If you just mean that you're just trying to get your mind to accept it, think of saidar like a thin sheet of water surrounding you and saidin as a torrent. Which would provide better protection?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, yeah, but thats not how I think of them.

[Luckers]

Yeah thats exactly what i was trying to say. Thanks darkhon. Also, Robert keep in mind that the weaves are trying to control the channeler, not saidin or saidar.

[RobertAlexWillis]

But if holding saidin prevents control of the channeler, then obviously the Power is involved somehow, so it comes back to the difference between saidin and saidar. Yes, saidin is described as a wild torrent, but saidar is described as a deep and powerful river, peaceful and subject to guidance, but only if you surrender. If you are trying to force it, it becomes uncontrollably powerful.

[Luckers]

Remember he says wrapped in.

 

And yes, of course it lay in the difference between saidin and saidar, but not in the difference between weaving saidin and saidar.

 

Remember saidar does not grow problematic until you actually try and weave it. You can draw on it and just hold it and it will be tranquil. The person compelling is not trying to control the other persons saidar or saidin. They are trying to control their mind. In one channeler, they are reaching into something which is calm, still. They are not trying to effect that stillness, so it does not react. In the other they are reaching into a tempest. Again they arn't attempting to effect that tempest, but by its sheer nature it effects the weave.

 

There is the fact too that we HAVE seen women holding saidar compelled, whilst men holding saidin appear immune.

[RobertAlexWillis]

There is the fact too that we HAVE seen women holding saidar compelled, whilst men holding saidin appear immune.

 

 

Yeah, I know. I'm not contesting that as a fact, I'm just trying to reconcile it internally.

[drakhon]

Perhaps it is because to hold saidar you must be in a state of surrender while holding saidin requires you to be in a state of conflict.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That didn't help me .... sorry. That just makes it seem like saidar is less suceptible to force.

[demonspawn]

Hold on hold on! Now everyone seems to believe that the Aes Sedai-Warder bond seems to involve Compulsion! Are you sure it's not just the feeling that transfers between "Bonder and bondee" that "seems" like compulsion. If you look at Birgittes Bonding with Elayne (who didn't bond her correctly by the way!)there is never any suggestion of compulsion because it goes against the three codes?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Compulsion does not go against the Three Oaths. It is just a forbidden weave. Also, the books are quite clear that the bond can be used to Compel a Warder. Take the scene between Allana and Kiruna right after Rand fled Caemlyn comes to mind.

 

Lord of Chaos Chapter 49: The Mirror of Mists

"If you had to bond a man without asking him," Kiruna demanded in that commanding voice, "why, by the Light most holy, have you not used the bond to bend him to your will? Compared to the other, that is only slapping his wrist."

 

Alanna still had small control of her emotions. Color actually fooded her cheeks, partly in anger by the way her eyes flashed, and assuredly partly in shame. "Has no one told you?" she asked, too brightly. "I suppose no one wants to think of it. I certainly do not." Faeldrin and Seonid looked at the floor, and they were not the only ones. "]I tried to compel him moments after I bonded him," Alanna continued as if noticing none of it. "Have you ever attempted to uproot an oak tree with your bare hands, Kiruna? It was much the same."

[Luckers]

Also the transferal of feelings is something unique to a female/female bond. It's not present in a female/male bond.

 

Robert, you keep seeming to take the nature of controlling saidar as the point. The point of compulsion is to control the person. If the person is in a state of surrender because of saidar, it doesn't change that fact they they are in a state of surrender.

 

I don't actually buy this... it would imply that non-channeler should be immune to, if they were in a state of confrontation--which is true in weaker forms of compulsion, but of the type Graendal uses it seems unlikely.

[Cybertrolloc]

Luckers, I can't remember an example that is for sure a woman holding the power and being compelled (i.e. Mog didn't compel Ny and El until El released the power in tSR at the inn...but inverted/reversed weaves didn't exist then either). Not that it matters, the fact that Graendal tries it on Mog and Cyn while at least Mog held the power is good enough.

 

Just seems like something that we need to take at face value, even though it came out of the blue from Sammael (don't channelers get enough advantages already RJ ;)) or try to resolve it with an Adam for men.

[Luckers]

Nope, Moggy grasped the sources and wove and THEN Elayne released the true source.

 

Smiling she closed the door behind her. "Forgive me, but I thought you were - " The glow of saidar surrounded her and she....

Elayne released the True Source. There was something very commanding about those eyes.

 

Inversion and reversal did exist then too. It's existed since the Age of Legends, modern people just didn't know it. Moghedian hides her ability from Liandrin and the others in tSR with an inverted weave. Not that that has anything to do with this.

[drakhon]

That didn't help me .... sorry. That just makes it seem like saidar is less suceptible to force.

 

It is, but it's just a matter of different functionality. Saidin would kill you if you tried to surrender to it. This is not really the topic at hand, though.

 

The point is that a Compulsion weave acts upon the person, not the Source. The evidence suggests that holding the Source provides a barrier between the wielder and the Compulsion weave being used on them. The weave is "trying" to break through the barrier to be able to affect the mind of the target.

 

It is unclear whether saidin and saidar provide the same protection from Compulsion. However, if I had to say that one of them did while the other didn't I'd take the torrential barrier over the placid one.

 

Cybertrolloc:

Sammael's thoughts don't say whether Compulsion resistance is a benefit of only saidin, but they do seem to indicate that the resistance is only to delicate uses of the weave.

 

Based on what we've seen in practice, using a Compulsion hammer against someone holding saidar can work (Moghedien vs Nyneave/Elayne) and delicate Compulsion against someone holding saidin fails (Alanna vs Rand) though this could potentially be the result of other factors explored previously in this thread.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Robert, you keep seeming to take the nature of controlling saidar as the point. The point of compulsion is to control the person. If the person is in a state of surrender because of saidar, it doesn't change that fact they they are in a state of surrender.

 

and

 

The point is that a Compulsion weave acts upon the person, not the Source. The evidence suggests that holding the Source provides a barrier between the wielder and the Compulsion weave being used on them. The weave is "trying" to break through the barrier to be able to affect the mind of the target.

 

It is unclear whether saidin and saidar provide the same protection from Compulsion. However, if I had to say that one of them did while the other didn't I'd take the torrential barrier over the placid one.

 

Yeah, I know fellas. Its just that we're talking about holding saidin as protection, so the nature of the two sides of the Source becomes involved, at least in my mind. I mean, if its simply the state of the person that offers protection or not, then it shouldn't matter if he/she is holding the Source or not.

 

Interestingly, Sammael said Compulsion didn't work on someone "wrapped in" saidin. Maybe I'm being over-sensitive to semantics, but I can't recall another instance of anyone, Forsaken or "modern", referring to simply seizing saidin as being "wrapped in" it. Maybe Sammael is doing more than just holding the source? And maybe Rand did too ... it wouldn't be the first time he instinctively protected himself without knowing it. It just seems really strange that simply seizing the Source would offer complete, passive protection. (I mean passive in the sense of not having to weave anything, not passive as in the method of seizing saidin, obviously.)