Shielding???

[ErikTheBald]

So at the end of KoD, Furyk Karede shows up at Mat's camp with one Sul'dam, Melitene and one Damane, Mylen formerly the Aes Sedai Sheraine.

 

The three Aes Sedai with Mat, Joline, Edesina and Teslyn recognize her and demand she be freed. 

 

At that time, Joline gasps and all three are apparently shielded. 

 

One channeler being able to singlehandedly shield three opposing channelers seems to go against what we know about and have seen regarding shielding.  Nynaeve and Moghedien are about equal in strength (at that time) and duel for several minutes attempting to shield one another.

 

I checked the Encyclopeadia WOT to check my facts on that chapter but the incident is largely ignored so I am wondering if this is a mistake in the text.

 

Surely, three channelers, Joline, Edesina and Teslyn, would be enough to break the shield woven by one single Damane and then shield her in turn, enabling them to free her?  I know Teslyn and Edesina think Sheraine is too far gone to be freed, but would that be true if the collar actually came off whist she was surrounded by more Aes Sedai than Sul'dam? 

 

Could it be possible that as a Sul'dam grows more familiar with the power, she is actually adding her strength to that of the Damane? 

 

That's the only logical explanation I can come up with for Mylen being able to shield and hold Edesina, Joline and Teslyn.

 

[Mr. Dragon]

Nynaeve and Moghedien are about equal in strength (at that time) and duel for several minutes attempting to shield one another.

This is an attempt to sheild another which is significantly different to battling to be released from a sheild.

 

 

Surely, three channelers, Joline, Edesina and Teslyn, would be enough to break the shield woven by one single Damane and then shield her in turn, enabling them to free her? 

 

Not necessarily, The person/s within said sheild needs to be alot stronger than the sheilder, Rand for instance can breck out of a sheild of 5-6 normal AS. The AS we are talking about here are not particarly strong, either the ones being shielded or the one doing the sheilding, but IMO it is reasonable for Mylen to be able to hold 3 not very strong AS. If one of 3 was someone strong like Lanfear of Nyn then she probably wouldn't be able to hold it.

 

Could it be possible that as a Sul'dam grows more familiar with the power, she is actually adding her strength to that of the Damane? 

I believe Aviendha in TDR said that the Sul'dam's talent was as if it had never been used, or something to the same effect, so it seems contridictory to what we already know.

[ErikTheBald]

"The Aes Sedai we are talking about are not particularly strong"

 

Incorrect.

 

ACoS,Ch17 - Joline and Teslyn are the same strength and are stronger than Merilille.  Merilille is strong enough to make a Gateway for Traveling when she was acting as messenger between Elayne and the Borderlander Army.  By contrast, Vandene and Adelas are not considered weak in the power, but neither are strong enough to make a gateway. LoC, Ch44.  They are strong enough to pick up two women, (linked perhaps) and stuff them through a second story window when they are alomst mugged in the Rahad LoC, Ch52.

 

I know that strength in the power is something that is generally left rather vague in the story but I would think that this would certainly put Joline and Teslyn in the top half amongst Aes Sedai.  We don't see anything like that in the rest of the series.

 

I don't believe there is any way one Aes Sedai, which we know Mylen to have been prior to her capture, could shield two others, both strong enough to create a gateway, to say nothing of three. 

 

As for the strength of the person already shielded, if it were one person, what you say would be true.  But in this case, Mylen is weaving and holding three shields.  I think I recall a POV of Egwene's in the Stone of Tear stating that doing two things simultaneously with the power is a lot more than twice as hard as doing one.  So weaving three shields would be an order of magnitude more difficult.

 

I'm just not buying it.  It's a error or there is something about the Damane/Sul'dam link about which we have not yet been told.

 

Aviendha's statement actually makes my point.  The Sul'dam HAVE the ability, they just don't know how to use it.  They would not need to use it if the a'dam was ading it to the link for them.

[Elgee]

Merilille isn't strong enough to form a gateway - the Kinswoman (can't recall her name now) did that for her.

[Luckers]

Indeed, Teslyn, Joline and Edesina are probably only around midling. Sheraine may have stood much higher, and thus been able to hold even all three.

 

Additionally RJ commented that some people have a Talent for shielding (in reference to Ispan and whatsherface holding Nynaeve, so we know that some Aes Sedai have this Talent, despite the fact that they don't mention it). We see this in Berowin of the Kin also.

[ErikTheBald]

Prior to their assignment to Ebou Dar, Teslyn and Joline were Sitters for the Red and Green in the Hall of the Tower. 

 

I doubt that they were of middling strength as the Tower hierarchy leans toward strength in the Power.

 

[Luckers]

Not so, there are no requirements for strength in being a sitter--and whilst the day to day hierarchy revolves around strength, the Sitter hierarchy revolves around age.

 

Of course I'm not missing your point, that the strength of a sister lends her respectability, and that may well skiew the voting for Sitterhood--I would point out however that they need 21 sitters of above a hundred years of age, (likely selected from the 400 Tower bound Aes Sedai--those that make their business the Tower are the most likely for Sitter candiditure)...

 

So yes, whilst I agree it'd be unlikely to see too many in the lower bracket, there will be sitters who are only middling.

 

Incidentally I found this earlier today, and thought you'd like it.

 

I asked why Elayne thought even a Forsaken couldn't break the shield Adeleas and Vandene were holding on Ispan, expecting the answer that Elayne is clue-impaired.  The correct answer is that holding a shield on someone depends not only on relative strength and fatigue, but also on whether the shield is held by channelers of the same sex as the victim.  Thus two women (Adeleas and Vandene on Ispan, or Ispan and Falion on Nynaeve in A Crown of Swords) can hold another woman, but three women just get severed if they try to shield Rand.  As a curiosity, it is also possible for multiple people to hold a shield without linking, but this is less strong and less precise, producing basically a layered shield.

 

I'd not heard that before. The layered shield thing would explain what was going on with Rand in LoC too (why he could feel places were distinct Aes Sedai were holding the weave, when in a link it should have felt simply like one person channeling at him).

[Nightstrike]

Maybe they dissolved the circle when 3 out of 6 left it? Or maybe it still feels like 3 separate soft spots for those that know what to look for?

 

It's interesting that 6 women shielded both Rand & Logain (Salidar as well), even though only 1 man shielded each Aes Sedai after freeing Rand.

 

Teslyn & Joline were stronger than Adeleas & Vandene. Adeleas & Vandene were of average Aes Sedai strength. Teslyn & Joline are stronger, but I don't know exactly how much stronger.

 

[Luckers]

What's your basis for saying they were average? By all indications Adeleas and Vandene were quite weak. Certainly they couldn't make gateways--or many of the other new weaves.

 

Oh, and here's the quote I originally referenced.

 

Q: Ask what the deal is with Nynaeve being able to hold half the Power as ten sisters with a sa'angreal but not being able to handle two pussy little Black Ajah by herself. 

RJ: Some people have shielding Talents.

[Nightstrike]

What's your basis for saying they were average? By all indications Adeleas and Vandene were quite weak. Certainly they couldn't make gateways--or many of the other new weaves.

Only a handful Aes Sedai can make a Gateway big enough to put their arm through, and most not even that( LoC, 39).

 

Adeleas & Vandene were of average strength. Look into 13:th depository's article, for instance.

 

Adeleas could lift two women in Ebou Dar, and stuff them through a window a couple of floors up. Siuan used to be able to lift 3 times her weight, now she is able to lift somewhere between 1 and 1.5 times her weight (lost more than 1/2 her strength, but probably not more than 2/3 of her strength).

 

Siuan is weaker than average. We know that most Aes Sedai would be as strong as her even if she was Healed up to 2/3 her original strength. That's equal to lifting 2 Siuan. Assuming Siuan is of roughly average weight, it would place Adeleas & Vandene exactly at median Aes Sedai strength.

 

(Their extremely high ages would also have been speaking against the idea that they are much below median strength.)

 

(Could be compared to Egwene lifting 4 women high in the Air, whilst shielding a Windfinder.)

 

 

[Luckers]

When does Adeleas lift two women?

 

Also please don't go throwing around 'what we know' about Siuan and Leane. You are fully aware that your claims in reguards to them are subject to debate.

 

 

Now, I don't mind them being around average Aes Sedai strength, I certainly really don't have anything to disagree except for the way Adeleas and Vandene talked about themselves in Salidar, which as you point out may not mean much. Either way the same-gender shielding thing solves the issue of Elayne's comment.

 

Also--I'm confused--whilst yes, I don't believe that Linda and Dominic's strength strata should be taken as an official source (they've put a great deal of energy and thought into it, and its an amazing piece of work, but for all that still very, very subjective) I don't understand why you would suggest it to me in the matter of Adeleas and Vandene.

 

Linda and Dominic place Adeleas and Vandene on Level 6. They run the Aes Sedai strength range between Level 4 and Level 12 (ignoring Caddy as an outlier). That puts Vandene and and Adeleas on the third of a nine tier strength dispersal--and not anywhere near the middle (I'll not talk about averages, we a) don't know how skewed the Aes Sedai strength dispersion is, and b) its irrelevent to what we are discussing).

 

 

[Nightstrike]

When does Adeleas lift two women?

It's mentioned in LoC, 52.

 

Also please don't go throwing around 'what we know' about Siuan and Leane. You are fully aware that your claims in reguards to them are subject to debate.

No, it's not up to debate. It's written in stone.

 

Either way the same-gender shielding thing solves the issue of Elayne's comment.

That, by itself, offers a possibly complete explanation that solves everything neatly for us. But we know more than Elayne's comment.

 

Linda and Dominic place Adeleas and Vandene on Level 6. They run the Aes Sedai strength range between Level 4 and Level 12 (ignoring Caddy as an outlier). That puts Vandene and and Adeleas on the third of a nine tier strength dispersal--and not anywhere near the middle (I'll not talk about averages, we a) don't know how skewed the Aes Sedai strength dispersion is, and b) its irrelevent to what we are discussing).

To Shielding, yes, it's irrelevant. But it's not irrelevant to your comment about Teslyn & Joline being middling. Linda & Dominic at "13:th Depository" place the ancient sisters at "average strength". They are around the median strength. Which is close to average of all Aes Sedai.  

 

Lifting (more than?) 4 women means that you are (at least) 1.333 the strength of the one lifting 3 women, and lifting 3 women means that you're 1.5 times the strength of the one lifting 2 women. Egwene is at least twice the strength of Adeleas & Vandene. They are of roughly median Aes Sedai strength.

 

From 13:th Depository:

This level also includes the Healed strengths of Siuan and Leane:

 

Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way.

- Lord of Chaos, To Heal Again

That's "Healed up to two thirds of what they were", not "regaining two thirds of what they lost".

 

Also, Luckers, have you forgotten that if you'd been right about "regaining two thirds of what they lost", then they would actually have lost more than 2/3 of their original strength? That's assuming we have a symmetric distribution, just like you've claimed. I've posted the proof before.

 

Had you been right, then median strength gives female AS (like Adeleas) an ability to lift roughly 2.16 Siuan.

 

 

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on February 25, 2010, 10:09:11 PM

When does Adeleas lift two women?

 

It's mentioned in LoC, 52.

 

Cool.

 

Quote

Also please don't go throwing around 'what we know' about Siuan and Leane. You are fully aware that your claims in reguards to them are subject to debate.

 

No, it's not up to debate. It's written in stone.

 

That reads amusingly close to "Na Ni Na Ni Na--I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!".

 

Quote

Linda and Dominic place Adeleas and Vandene on Level 6. They run the Aes Sedai strength range between Level 4 and Level 12 (ignoring Caddy as an outlier). That puts Vandene and and Adeleas on the third of a nine tier strength dispersal--and not anywhere near the middle (I'll not talk about averages, we a) don't know how skewed the Aes Sedai strength dispersion is, and b) its irrelevent to what we are discussing).

 

 

To Shielding, yes, it's irrelevant. But it's not irrelevant to your comment about Teslyn & Joline being middling. Linda & Dominic at "13:th Depository" place the ancient sisters at "average strength". They are around the median strength. Which is close to average of all Aes Sedai. 

 

I'm not talking about average strength--we know aes Sedai strength is skewed, though not to what extent; establishing an average or median is impossible. I'm talking about middling strength. Linda and Dominic place Adeleas and Vandene on the third level of a nine level strata. Joline and Teslyn, being stronger than those two, could easily stand at the middle of the Aes Sedai strength distribution.

 

I really don't see the worth in that toward your suggestion--nor do I see your basis that them being on level 6 makes them 'average' strength. How, precisely, do you know the average strength of Aes Sedai?

 

From 13:th Depository:

 

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This level also includes the Healed strengths of Siuan and Leane:

 

Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way.

- Lord of Chaos, To Heal Again

That's "Healed up to two thirds of what they were", not "regaining two thirds of what they lost".

 

Also, Luckers, have you forgotten that if you'd been right about "regaining two thirds of what they lost", then they would actually have lost more than 2/3 of their original strength? That's assuming we have a symmetric distribution, just like you've claimed. I've posted the proof before.

 

Had you been right, then median strength gives female AS (like Adeleas) an ability to lift roughly 2.16 Siuan.

 

Forgotten? Nightstrike, that you said it did not make it true. I recall your arguments. I agree with them now no more than I did then.

 

Additionally--I am once again confused--if I was right then Adeleas would be able to do precisely what she did in LoC? Lift two women?

 

That being said I have problems with your assumptions about how strength in the power exactly equates to weight lifted--again, as you well know.

 

[Nightstrike]

That reads amusingly close to "Na Ni Na Ni Na--I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!".

:D Heh, I could say the same thing.

 

I'm not talking about average strength--we know aes Sedai strength is skewed, though not to what extent; establishing an average or median is impossible. I'm talking about middling strength. Linda and Dominic place Adeleas and Vandene on the third level of a nine level strata. Joline and Teslyn, being stronger than those two, could easily stand at the middle of the Aes Sedai strength distribution.

What? I can't believe it! After all this time, have you finally realized that the curves aren't symmetrical?  Oh, and as I said in my previous post, they placed them as average strength Aes Sedai.

 

I really don't see the worth in that toward your suggestion--nor do I see your basis that them being on level 6 makes them 'average' strength. How, precisely, do you know the average strength of Aes Sedai?

Have you realized that the mean isn't 50 percent of Lanfear's strength?

 

From 13:th Depository:

Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way.

- Lord of Chaos, To Heal Again

That's "Healed up to two thirds of what they were", not "regaining two thirds of what they lost".

 

Also, Luckers, have you forgotten that if you'd been right about "regaining two thirds of what they lost", then they would actually have lost more than 2/3 of their original strength? That's assuming we have a symmetric distribution, just like you've claimed. I've posted the proof before.

Had you been right, then median strength gives female AS (like Adeleas) an ability to lift roughly 2.16 Siuan.

Forgotten? Nightstrike, that you said it did not make it true. I recall your arguments. I agree with them now no more than I did then.

It's not a matter of whether I said it or not. It was your incorrect ideas and my correct math. I started with disregarding all evidence to the contrary, and used your ideas. Whether you disagree or not does not make my math any less correct. You were proven wrong. I could repost it, if you want.

 

Additionally--I am once again confused--if I was right then Adeleas would be able to do precisely what she did in LoC? Lift two women?

No, of course that's not what I was talking about. I talked about your ideas that I used, and proved wrong - with math that time (not the quote from LoC, To Heal Again). You meant that it was "regaining two thirds of what they lost", and not "Healed up to two thirds of what they were". That, combined with your claim that Siuan wasn't less than half her original strength. That was what I talked about.

 

That being said I have problems with your assumptions about how strength in the power exactly equates to weight lifted--again, as you well know.

Why do you have that problem? Any particular reason?

 

 

[Luckers]

Quote

I'm not talking about average strength--we know aes Sedai strength is skewed, though not to what extent; establishing an average or median is impossible. I'm talking about middling strength. Linda and Dominic place Adeleas and Vandene on the third level of a nine level strata. Joline and Teslyn, being stronger than those two, could easily stand at the middle of the Aes Sedai strength distribution.

 

What? I can't believe it! After all this time, have you finally realized that the curves aren't symmetrical?  Oh, and as I said in my previous post, they placed them as average strength Aes Sedai.

 

Nope. I still reckon based on RJ's comments that the distribution of strength amongst all channelers is symmetrical. I was talking here only about the strata of Aes Sedai strength, which due to their shoddy recruitment practices does not represent a reliable sample of the population.

 

And as I said, how the heck do you know the average Aes Sedai strength? You certainly arn't going off the middle. You state that the average Aes Sedai sits on the third level of a nine tier system--on what basis?

 

Quote

I really don't see the worth in that toward your suggestion--nor do I see your basis that them being on level 6 makes them 'average' strength. How, precisely, do you know the average strength of Aes Sedai?

 

Have you realized that the mean isn't 50 percent of Lanfear's strength?

 

Well, yeah, given the Aes Sedai only range between level 4 and level 12, its a safe bet that their mean has nothing to do with Lanfear's strength at level 21.

 

(note: I said that for the sake of argument. I still maintain that Dominic and Linda's system can't be taken as official).

 

It's not a matter of whether I said it or not. It was your incorrect ideas and my correct math. I started with disregarding all evidence to the contrary, and used your ideas. Whether you disagree or not does not make my math any less correct. You were proven wrong. I could repost it, if you want.

 

Firstly, your math was about the symmetricality of the distribution of strength amongst women who can channel (and deductions about channelers based on that)--which I maintain, as I did then, that RJ's comment proves wrong. His comment sustains an equal distribution. Your math was never wrong, your premise was. 2 + 2 may well equal 4, but how is that relevent when you have 4 and 7?

 

And save us a repost--if you didn't convince me after--what, 10, 15 pages?--you'll not do so here. Besides, its unnecessary--I can make the argument about Siuan and Leane's strength without reference to the distribution--remember, I did so in the Brandon's Confusions About Cyndane Strength thread on the tGS board. I can do so again if you wish?

 

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Additionally--I am once again confused--if I was right then Adeleas would be able to do precisely what she did in LoC? Lift two women?

 

 

No, of course that's not what I was talking about. I talked about your ideas that I used, and proved wrong - with math that time (not the quote from LoC, To Heal Again). You meant that it was "regaining two thirds of what they lost", and not "Healed up to two thirds of what they were". That, combined with your claim that Siuan wasn't less than half her original strength. That was what I talked about.

 

If you say so.

 

Quote

That being said I have problems with your assumptions about how strength in the power exactly equates to weight lifted--again, as you well know.

 

Why do you have that problem? Any particular reason?

 

Several, which I've explained in detail to you. But alright, within the context of this thread how bout incongruity with the whole strength in the power vs. weight liftable. You have Siuan on Level 5 and Adeleas on Level 6. Siuan's original strength was Level 12.

 

With that in mind, Siuan, on Level 12 can lift three women. Siuan on Level 5 can't lift one man (and a slight one). Adeleas, on Level 6 can lift two women. Begin to see the problem? Between Level 5 and Level 6 the ability to lift things nearly doubles, but then between Level 6 and Level 12 the ability to lift things only increases by a minor amount.

 

How is this viable if strength and the amount one can lift is so exactly matched, as you suggest?

 

 

 

Anyway Nightstrike I've pretty much done what I need to here. Have a good night.

[Nightstrike]

Nope. I still reckon based on RJ's comments that the distribution of strength amongst all channelers is symmetrical. I was talking here only about the strata of Aes Sedai strength, which due to their shoddy recruitment practices does not represent a reliable sample of the population.

I should have known.  :) The Aes Sedai strength is such that 37.5 percent of all channelers were too weak to qualify. Then there's sparkers versus learners, but you say there is no difference in strength between them. I, on the other hand, believe that sparkers often are stronger (still, no guarantee). Sparkers are extremely rare, so that won't have any impact that makes any difference. All gentled men during the past 300 years wouldn't be as many as there are Aes Sedai today. Then we have the female sparkers that either die, or become wilders. They didn't take in wilders older than 18 years old, remember? In short, the biggest impact is the 37.5 percent limit. I took that into account. Either way, Adeleas is at the median of Aes Sedai strength.

 

And as I said, how the heck do you know the average Aes Sedai strength? You certainly arn't going off the middle. You state that the average Aes Sedai sits on the third level of a nine tier system--on what basis?

It's not my levels. It was 13:th depository's. The number of the levels don't say much, it's the rest of the argument that does say something. Either way, Adeleas is at the median of Aes Sedai strength.

 

Well, yeah, given the Aes Sedai only range between level 4 and level 12, its a safe bet that their mean has nothing to do with Lanfear's strength at level 21.

I'm not into the "level" thing.

 

Firstly, your math was about the symmetricality of the distribution of strength amongst women who can channel--which I maintain, as I did then, that RJ's comment proves wrong. His comment sustains an equal distribution. Your math was never wrong, your premise was. 2 + 2 may well equal 4, but how is that relevent when you have 4 and 7?

What on earth are you talking about? I've discussed whether the curves were symmetrical, but that's not what I've talked about especially in this thread. I assumed the curves were symmetrical, just as you said. I also used several other of your ideas. Then I did the math, which gave the result that Siuan did indeed lose more than 2/3 of her original strength - completely according to your ideas. But you said that she didn't lose more than 1/2 of her strength. So you're wrong. Very, very wrong. (As it happens, about more than 1 thing.)

 

And save us a repost--if you didn't convince me after--what, 10, 15 pages?--you'll not do so here. Besides, its unnecessary--I can make the argument about Siuan and Leane's strength without reference to the distribution--remember, I did so in the Brandon's Confusions About Cyndane Strength thread on the tGS board. I can do so again if you wish?

:D

That reads amusingly close to "Na Ni Na Ni Na--I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!".

 

 

No, of course that's not what I was talking about. I talked about your ideas that I used, and proved wrong - with math that time (not the quote from LoC, To Heal Again). You meant that it was "regaining two thirds of what they lost", and not "Healed up to two thirds of what they were". That, combined with your claim that Siuan wasn't less than half her original strength. That was what I talked about.

If you say so.

Correct, and I do.  ;)

 

That being said I have problems with your assumptions about how strength in the power exactly equates to weight lifted--again, as you well know.

Why do you have that problem? Any particular reason?

Several, which I've explained in detail to you. But alright, within the context of this thread how bout incongruity with the whole strength in the power vs. weight liftable. You have Siuan on Level 5 and Adeleas on Level 6. Siuan's original strength was Level 12.

??? First of all, I'm not into the "level" part of the argument. I'm more interested in the real One Power strength. Secondly, what are you talking about? "How about incongruity with the whole strength in the power vs. weight liftable." What are you talking about?  ???

 

With that in mind, Siuan, on Level 12 can lift three women. Siuan on Level 5 can't lift one man (and a slight one). Adeleas, on Level 6 can lift two women. Begin to see the problem? Between Level 5 and Level 6 the ability to lift things nearly doubles, but then between Level 6 and Level 12 the ability to lift things only increases by a minor amount.

Forget the numbered levels. Strength is the important part.

 

How is this viable if strength and the amount one can lift is so exactly matched, as you suggest?

Of course it's matched! Twice the strength means they can lift twice as much. Egwene isn't 4 times the strength of Adeleas, she's roughly 2-2.5 times the strength of Adeleas. Since she can lift that much more.

 

You think the weakest Aes Sedai is 37.5 percent of Lanfear's strength, right? Let's pretend that Adeleas is 38 percent of Lanfear's strength (I'm just pretending, I don't believe in any of this). If Egwene is 4 times that, then Egwene is 1.52 times stronger than Lanfear!

 

 

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 04:41:30 AM

Nope. I still reckon based on RJ's comments that the distribution of strength amongst all channelers is symmetrical. I was talking here only about the strata of Aes Sedai strength, which due to their shoddy recruitment practices does not represent a reliable sample of the population.

 

I should have known.  The Aes Sedai strength is such that 37.5 percent of all channelers were too weak to qualify. Then there's sparkers versus learners, but you say there is no difference in strength between them. I, on the other hand, believe that sparkers often are stronger (still, no guarantee). Sparkers are extremely rare, so that won't have any impact that makes any difference. All gentled men during the past 300 years wouldn't be as many as there are Aes Sedai today. Then we have the female sparkers that either die, or become wilders. They didn't take in wilders older than 18 years old, remember? In short, the biggest impact is the 37.5 percent limit. I took that into account. Either way, Adeleas is at the median of Aes Sedai strength.

 

Lol, yes you should have. You've stated all the places where I disagree with you in that, so that's cool--but again I have to ask what is your basis of stating Adeleas is at the median strength? Do you have information about the distribution of Aes Sedai strengths that I do not?

 

By your direction, we are to believe that Adeleas is on Level 6. The Aes Sedai strata runs from Level 4 to Level 12. Why, precisely, do you suggest that the median is Level 6?

 

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And as I said, how the heck do you know the average Aes Sedai strength? You certainly arn't going off the middle. You state that the average Aes Sedai sits on the third level of a nine tier system--on what basis?

 

It's not my levels. It was 13:th depository's. The number of the levels don't say much, it's the rest of the argument that does say something. Either way, Adeleas is at the median of Aes Sedai strength.

 

The rest of what argument? And what does it say? I see nothing in what Linda and Dominic have put together that sustains that Level 6 is the median point of Aes Sedai strength.

 

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And save us a repost--if you didn't convince me after--what, 10, 15 pages?--you'll not do so here. Besides, its unnecessary--I can make the argument about Siuan and Leane's strength without reference to the distribution--remember, I did so in the Brandon's Confusions About Cyndane Strength thread on the tGS board. I can do so again if you wish?

 

Quote from: Nightstrike on today at 05:27:17 AM

 

:D

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 02:23:33 AM

That reads amusingly close to "Na Ni Na Ni Na--I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!".

 

 

Oh no, I heard you very well. I just disagreed--very different from you declaring the matter undebatable and set in stone.

 

One is honest disagreement, the other blind refusal to listen. You see?

 

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Well, yeah, given the Aes Sedai only range between level 4 and level 12, its a safe bet that their mean has nothing to do with Lanfear's strength at level 21.

 

I'm not into the "level" thing.

 

I did warn you. You shot yourself in the foot involve the 13th Depository.

 

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Firstly, your math was about the symmetricality of the distribution of strength amongst women who can channel--which I maintain, as I did then, that RJ's comment proves wrong. His comment sustains an equal distribution. Your math was never wrong, your premise was. 2 + 2 may well equal 4, but how is that relevent when you have 4 and 7?

 

 

What on earth are you talking about? I've discussed whether the curves were symmetrical, but that's not what I've talked about especially in this thread. I assumed the curves were symmetrical, just as you said. I also used several other of your ideas. Then I did the math, which gave the result that Siuan did indeed lose more than 2/3 of her original strength - completely according to your ideas. But you said that she didn't lose more than 1/2 of her strength. So you're wrong. Very, very wrong. (As it happens, about more than 1 thing.)

 

Shall I then repost the argument from the Brandon's Confusions about Cyndane's Strength thread, then? You can show us how your math addresses issues other than the distributions?

 

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That being said I have problems with your assumptions about how strength in the power exactly equates to weight lifted--again, as you well know.

Why do you have that problem? Any particular reason?

 

Several, which I've explained in detail to you. But alright, within the context of this thread how bout incongruity with the whole strength in the power vs. weight liftable. You have Siuan on Level 5 and Adeleas on Level 6. Siuan's original strength was Level 12.

 

First of all, I'm not into the "level" part of the argument. I'm more interested in the real One Power strength. Secondly, what are you talking about? "How about incongruity with the whole strength in the power vs. weight liftable." What are you talking about? 

 

The levels are based on strength in the One Power--you do realise that, right? That's what this is. A chart of comparative strengths in the One Power. The Levels are levels of strength in the One Power.

 

As for the second, you've implied through this whole thread that a certain level of strength results in a certain amount of weight one can lift. That idea is directly proved impossible by this list--which you brought out.

 

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With that in mind, Siuan, on Level 12 can lift three women. Siuan on Level 5 can't lift one man (and a slight one). Adeleas, on Level 6 can lift two women. Begin to see the problem? Between Level 5 and Level 6 the ability to lift things nearly doubles, but then between Level 6 and Level 12 the ability to lift things only increases by a minor amount.

 

Forget the numbered levels. Strength is the important part.

 

Umm... the numbered levels are numbering levels of strength.

 

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How is this viable if strength and the amount one can lift is so exactly matched, as you suggest?

 

Of course it's matched! Twice the strength means they can lift twice as much. Egwene isn't 4 times the strength of Adeleas, she's roughly 2-2.5 times the strength of Adeleas. Since she can lift that much more.

 

I direct you to the above. Siuan at strength level 5 can't lift Bryne, who is a small man. Adeleas at strength level 6 can lift two women. That's near to twice what Siuan can lift despite only a slight increase in strength. Yet Siuan at her old strength level of 12 can only lift three women. So--a dramatic increase from strength level five to six, followed by only a minor increase from there.

 

What was it you asked me? Any reason for my problems with the ideas about strength in the power equaling amounts that one can lift... yeah--served.

 

You think the weakest Aes Sedai is 37.5 percent of Lanfear's strength, right? Let's pretend that Adeleas is 38 percent of Lanfear's strength (I'm just pretending, I don't believe in any of this). If Egwene is 4 times that, then Egwene is 1.52 times stronger than Lanfear!

 

Haha. Nice bolding. Am I to take it then that you think this a particularily great point?

 

I reiterate, it is clear that strength in the power does not exactly (or even closely) relate to how much one can or cannot lift. That there was so great a difference between Adeleas and Siuan(new), and so minor a difference between Adeleas and Siuan(old) proves this. So indeed, whilst Egwene may lift twice what Adeleas can (not for four times... Adeleas lifted two, Egwene four) that doesn't mean Egwene is twice (or four times) Adeleas' strength.

 

Thought, that being said, it is likely that Egwene is indeed around twice Adeleas strength. Maybe slightly less.

[Nightstrike]

Lol, yes you should have. You've stated all the places where I disagree with you in that, so that's cool--but again I have to ask what is your basis of stating Adeleas is at the median strength? Do you have information about the distribution of Aes Sedai strengths that I do not?

I've given the quote, and done the math. Both your (incorrect) version, and my own. We have the same information. I'm the only one to have done any math.

 

By your direction, we are to believe that Adeleas is on Level 6. The Aes Sedai strata runs from Level 4 to Level 12. Why, precisely, do you suggest that the median is Level 6?

I don't want to repeat myself about these "levels". Their numbers are of no interest to me. I am talking about strength, not levels.

 

The rest of what argument? And what does it say? I see nothing in what Linda and Dominic have put together that sustains that Level 6 is the median point of Aes Sedai strength.

I've not said that they've claimed it was the median point. I said that they named it "average strength". I have, on the other hand, explained why it's roughly the median of Aes Sedai strength.

 

One is honest disagreement, the other blind refusal to listen. You see?

The extent of your criticism is "you're wrong". That seems like... "blind refusal". Btw, if there is any difference between expected strength and actual strength among the Aes Sedai, then it would be speaking against your arguments. Because any bad recruitment methods could only result in a slightly higher average than the "expected" one. (But you've also said that there's no difference between sparkers and learner, which I don't think).

 

 

I did warn you. You shot yourself in the foot involve the 13th Depository.

??? You say such peculiar things. I don't know what you're talking about.

 

Shall I then repost the argument from the Brandon's Confusions about Cyndane's Strength thread, then? You can show us how your math addresses issues other than the distributions?

I don't know what argument you're talking about, or what it has to do with anything I've said in this thread. Feel free to post whatever you wish.

 

First of all, I'm not into the "level" part of the argument. I'm more interested in the real One Power strength. Secondly, what are you talking about? "How about incongruity with the whole strength in the power vs. weight liftable." What are you talking about?

The levels are based on strength in the One Power--you do realise that, right? That's what this is. A chart of comparative strengths in the One Power. The Levels are levels of strength in the One Power.

One level is stronger than another, yes. They've named some levels "Average strength". I do not care about numbered levels. I just care about the strength. Don't get me wrong, their article is a good one, but I still don't care about numbers on any levels. I've said this many times before.

 

As for the second, you've implied through this whole thread that a certain level of strength results in a certain amount of weight one can lift. That idea is directly proved impossible by this list--which you brought out.

No, you've said that several times already. Where do you get such an idea? Numbers on any levels in any list/lists does not say anything about any strength. You have not proved anything with those numbered levels. The numbers aren't interesting at all. It's the listing that's interesting. The levels could mean anything, so they are meaningless. Strength is what matters, and that is what that article is about.

 

Forget the numbered levels. Strength is the important part.

 

Umm... the numbered levels are numbering levels of strength.

Quit talking about the levels already. We're talking about strength, not levels. The numbered levels are just an aid to the ones that wrote the article, and for those who read it. Nothing more than that.

 

Of course it's matched! Twice the strength means they can lift twice as much. Egwene isn't 4 times the strength of Adeleas, she's roughly 2-2.5 times the strength of Adeleas. Since she can lift that much more.

I direct you to the above. Siuan at strength level 5 can't lift Bryne, who is a small man. Adeleas at strength level 6 can lift two women. That's near to twice what Siuan can lift despite only a slight increase in strength. Yet Siuan at her old strength level of 12 can only lift three women. So--a dramatic increase from strength level five to six, followed by only a minor increase from there.

Quit talking about the levels already. We're talking about strength, not levels. The numbered levels are just an aid to the ones that wrote the article, and for those who read it. Nothing more than that.

 

 

What was it you asked me? Any reason for my problems with the ideas about strength in the power equaling amounts that one can lift... yeah--served.

???   ???   ???  Where? I've seen nothing yet!

 

 

You think the weakest Aes Sedai is 37.5 percent of Lanfear's strength, right? Let's pretend that Adeleas is 38 percent of Lanfear's strength (I'm just pretending, I don't believe in any of this). If Egwene is 4 times that, then Egwene is 1.52 times stronger than Lanfear!

 

Haha. Nice bolding. Am I to take it then that you think this a particularily great point?

 

I reiterate, it is clear that strength in the power does not exactly (or even closely) relate to how much one can or cannot lift. That there was so great a difference between Adeleas and Siuan(new), and so minor a difference between Adeleas and Siuan(old) proves this. So indeed, whilst Egwene may lift twice what Adeleas can (not for four times... Adeleas lifted two, Egwene four) that doesn't mean Egwene is twice (or four times) Adeleas' strength.

 

Thought, that being said, it is likely that Egwene is indeed around twice Adeleas strength. Maybe slightly less.

Yeah, it's one of the many good points. You've claimed that Adeleas is weaker than average, being able to lift 2 women while Siuan used to be a lot stronger than average. Very, very few are stronger nowadays among the female Aes Sedai - only 1 out of roughly 200 of all potential channelers, meaning 0.79 out of 1.00 in a symmetric curve such as the one you've argued for. Taking into account that there were at least 100 000 female Aes Sedai during AoL. Had there been 500 million female Aes Sedai, Siuan's strength would be 0.72 out of 1.00. Siuan could lift 3 times her own weight. So it takes a huge difference in strength for a woman to be able to lift 1.3333 times as much as Siuan used to be able to. Egwene can lift more than 1.3333 times as much as old Siuan. Exponential increase in strength for every extra weight lifted would definately land Egwene stronger than Lanfear, and that's absolutely not the real case. Another proof against your arguments.

 

 

[KaptainKaos]

Wow, crazy, I lean toward RJ/Brandon being correct with what is written no matter what simply because of the number of variables in these types of situations.  For instance I don't think anyone has mentioned that the ability to shield someone effectively is increased significantly when they haven't already embraced the Source.  Surprise is also something that could give even a very powerful channeler some trouble, even if they are holding onto the true source they have to be ready to defend against the shield.

 

Just some food for thought...

[Luckers]

Well no, Kaptain, we already have an answer to this. Breaking the shield held by someone of the same sex requires considerably more strength than breaking the shield of someone of the opposite sex.

[Nightstrike]

You're both right. Holding someone shielded takes less than shielding someone who already embraces the source. It's also true that different gender shielding is different from same gender shielding.

 

Shielding Talents as well as skill in actually shielding someone can also make a difference. Talaan was weaker than Nynaeve, but seemed more skilled at it. At least after she'd had some practice. (Nynaeve probably isn't one of those with much skill & dexterity.)

 

 

[KaptainKaos]

Also, Talaan had a much more disciplined training than Nynaeve and a bit of a higher potential I believe.  Besides Nynaeve might be good with the complex Healing weaves but the battle for shielding someone seems more akin to swordplay which I wouldn't imagine Nynaeve being particularly interested in. 

[You fool]

My thoughts are that it's an error on RJs part. The former aes sedai now damane's strength is never mentioned anywhere, but Joline and Teslyn are higher than average. Edesina is weaker than them both. However because Sheraine is never mentioned specifically as strong and is neither an Ajah head nor a sitter, I assume she was at most the same strenght as Joline and Teslyn. The only explain I can think of is the extreme skill and speed of the der suldam, Melitene. She is a master of her trade. Maybe she embraced the source through the above average strength damane, wove 3 shields, shielded the 3 aes sedai and knotted the shields before they could even embrace the source themselves. This could explain the look of surprise and lack of a struggle from the aes sedai. 

[Rhettles]

Remember it is much easier to shield a person who is not already embracing the power or is only drawing lightly on the source. If a weaker channeller catches a stronger by surprise they can still shield them and hold them.  If the shielder is particularly dexterous it is absolutely plausable she could weave 3 shields and hold them.   Breaking through a shield is no simple task, it is determined by a channellers strength, determination, talent and skill.   

I don't think Matt's Aes Sedai tried particularly hard. They were shocked and angry and surprised with their focus centred on Mylen not on their shields.  

I don't think the text was a mistake.