Question About The 'Reality' of LTT in Rand's Head in Relation To Falme/Bk 2

[yoniy0]

With the way TAR seems to be the afterlife for souls, or at least Hero souls, it could be that going there in the flesh would bring you closer to your past lives, it may have made it easier to access those memories, in which caused him problems to differentiate once all the stress and taint kicked in.  *shrug*

Funny, if I read this correctly you seem to assume that the answer would be "yes, they were in TAR". I took the exact opposite from what BS said. It might be some weird SG location, or it might just be Moridin's dreams (no reason for saidin to pull Rand out of TAR, we've seen him channel there before. However, that is one of the characteristics of the Ishamael-dreams - that channeling seems to pull Rand out of them).

[morkhon]

Hmm, interesting. You're the first I've seen to contest that. Could you help me find the first instance, then?

Person I quoted had said that LTT's voice in Rand's head only emerged after Moraine was lost. I said that was an inaccurate statement; that he had heard it before then.

 

Ok, so I have the paperback of TFoH. For reference, Moraine falls into the ter'angreal Chapter 52 'Choices', page 893.

 

Chapter 2 'Rhuidean', page 98: 'Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. When she gave me the rough side of her tongue, it was because she...His mind froze for an instant. He had never met a woman named Ilyena in his life. But he could summon up a face for the name, dimly; a pretty face, skin like cream, golden hair exactly the shade of Elayne's. This had to be a madness. Remembering an imaginary woman. Perhaps one day he would find himself having conversations with people who were not there.'

 

-Think about that last line.-

 

Chapter 20 'Jangai Pass', page 372: 'Like Mar Ruois. He tried to shake the thought away, but in his head he could see the great city after it was retaken...'etc.

 

Chapter 44 'The Lesser Sadness', page 709: Are you still jealous of me, Tel Janin? When did I ever slight you, or give you one finger less than your due?

This is during the battle with the Shaido, when Rand gets attacked by Sammael. As he's thinking about Sammael he thinks about balefire and...

 

Mustn't use that. Threatens the fabric of the Pattern. Not even for Ilyena? I would burn the world and use my soul for tinder to hear her laugh again.

 

Page 714: Only a battle lost is sadder than a battle won. He seemed to remember saying that before, long ago.

 

But how many faces will I know, like Jolien's? I will never forget Ilyena, not if all the world burns!

 

Chapter 46 'Other Battles, Other Weapons', page 740: Trust no one, he thought bleakly. For an instant he did not know whether it was his thought or Lews Therin's, but in the end he decided it did not matter.

 

Chapter 51 'News Comes to Cairhein', page865: (Rand is thinking about Sammael): He likes to come from behind, or at your flanks.

 

Chapter 52 'Choices', page 889: The thought was suddenly there in the emptiness. Spirit woven so, with Fire and Earth. There.

 

"I was never yours, Mieren. I will always belong to Ilyena." The Void quivered with sorrow and loss. And with desparation, as he fought something besides the scouring of saidin. For a moment he hung balanced. I am Rand al'Thor. And, Ilyena, ever and always my heart. Balanced on a razor edge. I am Rand al'Thor! Other thoughts tried to well up, a fountain of them, of Ilyena, of Mierin, of what he could do to defeat her. He forced them down, even the last.

 

Page 892: I killed her. A golden-haired woman lying in a ruined hallway, where, it seemed, the very walls had melted and flowed. Ilyena, forgive me! It was a despairing cry.

 

 

[morkhon]

I probably missed some, but a quick look through and I noticed those references.

 

I see several things in TFoH that have a severe impact on Rand: relationship with Aviendha. Dealing with Asmodean. Lanfear harassing him and trying to use him. Sammael attacking him. The battle with the Shaido. Etc.. I think the most significant was developing feelings for Aviendha. Sleeping with her. Discovering that kind of love for the first time. Bringing back the regret and sorrow over what he (The Dragon's soul) did to those he loved. Awakening that past regret. Awakening it in the form of...you know  ;)

 

[yoniy0]

I probably missed some, but a quick look through and I noticed those references.

It was me saying the voice came after Moiraine died. Mind you, I'm only talking about the voice, not the memories.

The thing is, the instances you noted here all seem to me like he had memories pop into his head, and they seemed foreign enough for him to deduce they are Lews Therin's memories. It isn't like there was this voice in his head which talks to him. So, for now I'll stand behind my original opinion, that the voice didn't precede Moiraines supposed 'death'.

[Durinax]

also in tFoH when rand is walking around in rhuiden prior to the darkhound attack in order for mat to get his attention mat says "Lews Therin" and Rand turns to him right away after ignoring several attempts to get his attention

[yoniy0]

Guys, and in the Stone of Tear he blurted out something when he spoke with Lanfear. There's no question, the memories were surfacing. But did he hear a separate voice talking to him in his head?

[The Fisher King]

Can anyone seriously argue with Morkhon on this one??? I mean, Reeeaally? He just cited and listed like 25 Zillion examples of LTT directly speaking to Rand, in Rand's head, BEFORE Moiraine Sedai's 'death' in FOH.

 

They weren't 'memories', they were instances of LTT directly *speaking* to Rand BEFORE Moiraine's sad finale in Book 5.

 

And it needs to be firmly understood that these were not 'memories' and they were not 'coping mechanisms' used by Rand; they were literal conversations between LTT and Rand AL Thor. No two ways about it.

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

Thanks Fish, I now FIRMLY understand the error of my ways. I'm ready to be baptized, would you do me the honor?

No, seriously, I must not be doing a good job arguing, if you're still not sure that someone can. Let me try to correct this.

The Draghkar's shriek challenged the night. Stout Bela ran with neck outstretched and tail and mane streaming in the wind of her running, matching the larger horses' every stride. The Aes Sedai must have done something more than simply ridding her of fatigue.

Look here, everybody, I think I found the first time LTT spoke to Rand in his head, explaining what Moiraine must have done :) . Oh, wait a minute, could it be that Rand just thought that one to himself? Remarkable. Well, surely, that's the last time before TFoH, right?

"And none you will," Elyas said, chuckling. "The way you're going, you can travel all the way to the Spine of the World without seeing another human. Of course, if you managed to climb the Spine-it can be done, some places-you could find people in the Aiel Waste, but you wouldn't like it there. You'd broil by day, and freeze by night, and die of thirst anytime. It takes an Aielman to find water in the Waste, and they don't like strangers much. No, not much, I'd say." He set off into another, more furious, burst of laughter, this time actually rolling on the ground. "Not much at all," he managed.

 

Perrin shifted uneasily. Are we eating with a madman?

Guess now LTT made an appearance in Perrin's head. Well, he is dead, after all. What is there to keep him from visiting whoever he chooses to?

 

See my point? At times, RJ included the thoughts of whomever we're reading about at the moment. He didn't always added "blank thought". It was just implied. And he marked those thoughts with an italic script.

[The Fisher King]

LOL Yoniyo!!! :)

 

I understand your point about everytime we see italics in a Rand POV doesn't always mean it is LTT, but...ok:

 

Above, in Morkhon's list, he gives TWO examples of LTT specifically referring to himself in the First-Person and referring to himself as ''I' and also referring to people from his past life, like Iyllenia.

 

Come on, you really gonna say thats not any different from Perrin thinking to himself about Elyas sitting around a campfire?

 

Remember, when you're given a Pair of Twos, the most likely outcome is always Four ;)

 

 

Fish

[mossman87]

Yoniy the thing with Fisher King is he already has his beliefs and nothing ever changes those beliefs even when others try to point out errors in it.

 

Basically, don't bother.

[bronnt]

Can anyone seriously argue with Morkhon on this one??? I mean, Reeeaally? He just cited and listed like 25 Zillion examples of LTT directly speaking to Rand, in Rand's head, BEFORE Moiraine Sedai's 'death' in FOH.

 

They weren't 'memories', they were instances of LTT directly *speaking* to Rand BEFORE Moiraine's sad finale in Book 5.

 

And it needs to be firmly understood that these were not 'memories' and they were not 'coping mechanisms' used by Rand; they were literal conversations between LTT and Rand AL Thor. No two ways about it.

 

Fish

 

The issue of whether the voice was a coping mechanism is irrelevant to its timing (except yoniy0 seems determined that it matters).  He's being driven insane by the taint and the voice appears, and it's attached to the memories which are leaking through his mind.  At first it's just memories, but even that is a symptom of the insanity.  You're not meant to remember past lives, only insane people do, and only insane people have crazy voices in their heads.  Rand's mind fractures so that a part of him remains mostly sane while the insane elements are thrust into the "LTT" aspect of his mind.

[KaptainKaos]

Yeah, Lews Therin and Rand are really one core person.  Simplified, them talking to one another is like me going insane, killing everyone that I care about, losing my memory because of the tragic experience and then years later having conversations with myself as I was prior to losing my memory.  Pretty insane stuff...

[The Fisher King]

I agree with KK. He nailed it.

 

 

Fish

[Calderis]

I mean, I still agree with Yoniy0, the quotes Fisher listed except for the last one aren't instances of LTT speaking, put them in context in the book and you'll see that they were rands thoughts and the foreign nature of those thoughts disturbed him. they were all before he'd fragmented the LTT voice aside and had the thoughts coming in that way. In my mind, the quotes listed actually reinforce the oppinion of LTT as a mental split and not as a real person, because those portions, and his reaction to them, show that he didn't know how to deal with his situation and that he was fighting being the reborn soul of another man. There were times that he was Angry with LTT, but after the voice emerged he was able to be angry at the voice, at "someone else" rather than be frightened of what was happening to himself.

 

Once Cadsuane brings up hearing voices he's terrified and won't leave his rooms in Cairhien for days, and then continually tries to convince himself the voice is real. He's so scared of going insane it's easier to believe that there's another man trapped in his head, then that memories from another life could just appear in his mind(logically, I think the voice would scare me more, but not Rand by his reactions).

 

You can take anything out of context and try and use it to support your view. Look at how people use the bible. quotes out of context are pretty worthless.

[mossman87]

The fact that we can even have this discussion and still be divided is why I love RJ.

[The Fisher King]

Calderis...Cadsuane wasn't even introduced until Books 7-8 lol.

 

 

Fish.

[Calderis]

You obviously didn't read what I said, or don't understand it, I know when Cadsuane came in, and I know LTT was well established by then. Either your trollin for the sake of trollin, or you don't understand what I'm saying. not my problem.

[thewalrus777]

So was Lews Therin/Rand just spun out the once since the war of power,the once being him now. Could he had been spun out others times and just not as the dragon reborn. Didn't someone mention fighting agaisnt him?

 

Hawkwing did in tGH. He told him that when explaining how their souls were bound to the Horn. And it really shows how long the horn had been around.

[KaptainKaos]

The fact that we can even have this discussion and still be divided is why I love RJ.

 

I can't think of any argument for this.  :D

 

 

[The Fisher King]

Calderis...HuH???

 

Maybe you are doing that?

 

Its weird to use Cadusane as a Toushstone for your argument when she is a character that doesn't even appear in the books until several volumes *after* LTT appears in the series and begins to clearly and inarguably communicate directly with Rand. You may indeed know very well when Cadsuane entered the series as you claim, but that doesn't stop from lessening the validity of Cadsuane being in your argument. Maybe a reread of Books 5 - 7/8 might be helpful?

 

 

Fish

[Calderis]

Calderis...HuH???

 

Maybe you are doing that?

 

Its weird to use Cadusane as a Toushstone for your argument when she is a character that doesn't even appear in the books until several volumes *after* LTT appears in the series and begins to clearly and inarguably communicate directly with Rand. You may indeed know very well when Cadsuane entered the series as you claim, but that doesn't stop from lessening the validity of Cadsuane being in your argument. Maybe a reread of Books 5 - 7/8 might be helpful?

 

 

Fish

 

The first time Cadsuane arrives she asks Rand if he's begun hearing voices yet. He becomes reclusive and starts questioning the validity of LTT in his head, and immediately after/i] as a result of this the voice dissappears for a decent portion of time. his own questions on if LTT exists cause the voice to dissappear. That's why I brought it up. it's Valid.

[The Fisher King]

I remember that. The Disapearance of The Voice, I mean - you're right.

However, I have not ever really been arguing that...merely just maintaining that it is inaguable that in FOH, before Moiraine goes into Melty Door, that LTT is clearly and directly speaking to - and with - Rand.

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

Basically, don't bother.

Oh, but I enjoy this.

 

The issue of whether the voice was a coping mechanism is irrelevant to its timing (except yoniy0 seems determined that it matters).

You're right, on both counts. The reason I'm so insistent on that one is that it fits nicely with my theory, that Moiraine kept Rand sane (or rather, her 'death' pushed him over the edge). I feel that helps my argument about LTT's voice not being 'real', in the sense that it's not a separate consciousness in his head. So, while I don't really need to be right about this one in order to keep believing the voice wasn't anything more than Rand going nuts, I'll keep trying to convince you.

 

Above, in Morkhon's list, he gives TWO examples of LTT specifically referring to himself in the First-Person and referring to himself as ''I' and also referring to people from his past life, like Iyllenia.

 

Come on, you really gonna say thats not any different from Perrin thinking to himself about Elyas sitting around a campfire?

Well, bronnt basically said it already, but I want a go at the wording, so I might repeat a little of what was already said. Yes, LTT's memories in Rand's head are different than Perrin's thoughts. The reason is, they are SOMEBODY ELSE'S memories. That's why they feel foreign to Rand. Now, what's the distinction between having somebody else's memories (I'm not sure I'm with bronnt on this one. Mat got them without going insane, so that by itself, while unnatural, isn't necessarily a symptom of madness) and having a voice talking in your head? Interaction. Like the famous saying goes, once you start having conversations with yourself, you know something's wrong.

Thoughts don't always follow a language. Sometimes, though, you think in coherent sentences. So, the first stage Rand goes through is having thoughts influenced by LTT's personality and experience. The second, thinking like he is LTT (since he's captive in his memories of being LTT, he uses 'I'  when referring to stuff that happened to LTT). But, once he holds conversations in his head between his 'Rand' voice and his 'LTT' voice, that's what I call having a voice in his head. THAT is what I don't believe happened before Moiraine died. And That IS a symptom of madness, in my opinion.

[Calderis]

Again, I agree Yoniy0. There's a big difference between interraction with a voice that is marked in rand's voice as someone else, and him having his own thoughts that stem from LTT's memory's. I posted previously on the what I see as the difference, and how the turmoil and inner conflict created by those LTT influenced thoughts helped to create the fragmentation that cause the "voice." The memories were all there,but the voice was not.

 

The Death of moiraine pushed him farther down the path, and the voice became much more distinct and personified. Then Dumai's Wells happened and Rand accepted the voice as not just a foreign voice, but as somethin he could have a relationship with. From that point forward Rand accepted the voice as fully legitimate, albeit insane. A sometimes ally, sometimes Rival.

[KaptainKaos]

Doesn't TGS end any speculation as to what Lews Therin is inside of Rand's head?  Rand was and is Lews Therin Telamon reborn, the voice in general anyway, was an imbalance dictated by the Pattern itself, most likely to suit its immediate as well as ultimate purposes.