The Military Discussion Thread. (Full Spoilers)

[ajfurst]

We do have the previous and unexplained wipeout of a whole Tinker caravan that Mat came across long, long ago.

 

I had always assumed that had been done by the Shaido in an act of anger or provocation, given Rand's revelation at the end of TSR.

I always thought it was Carridin's work Niall set him to - the plague of 'Dragonsworn'. Doing atrocities and putting the blame on Rand.

[Davian93]

We do have the previous and unexplained wipeout of a whole Tinker caravan that Mat came across long, long ago.

 

I had always assumed that had been done by the Shaido in an act of anger or provocation, given Rand's revelation at the end of TSR.

I always thought it was Carridin's work Niall set him to - the plague of 'Dragonsworn'. Doing atrocities and putting the blame on Rand.

 

There's no evidence that Carridin was active that far to the East.  Carridin was working in Altara and Ghealdan, not between Cairhien and Tear.

[Ryamano]

Well, on the Shadow side we have:

 

150 Black Ajah.

Taim and an undisclosed number of Darkfriend Asha'man.

The uncounted monsters of the Blight.

A Trolloc army that has been focused on breeding and increasing their size for the last two years since the slap in the face the Shadow got in Eye of the World. This total is minus the sum total of all those Trollocs who were used in shadow attacks throughout the series. The questions are: How fast do Trollocs Reproduce? How long does it take, from birth, for a Trolloc to go from 'pup' to 'killmaimdestroy'?

We know about 1/100 of these births is a Myrdraal. Again, how long does it take for them to go from babies to adult? Does it kill the 'mother' in the process?

 

Are Trollocs, in fact, made from tanks in some lost facility in the Blight that Moridin has kept running all this time? They likely were made that way originally by Aginor, but is it normal breeding now or normal breeding augmented by these 'fresh' Trollocs?

 

Which leads us to exactly how Dragkar are made(born?). How many does he have? How are they breeding/being made? How many can he fill the skies with? I'd say over the course of the series about 20 Dragkar have been mentioned and/or killed. Just how many more lurk in the skies of the Blight? Do they nest on cliffs and make little horrifying soul kissing babies?

 

Another question:

How many Wyrms, Jumarra, and whatever other horrors in the Blight does the DO have to unleash? If a Wyrm can kill a Fade, well... what the heck /is/ it? They travel in packs and make fluting sounds. Giant serpent birds? Are they dune-like Sandworms?

 

And what the heck is a Jumarra and what else that Aginor has made is running loose?

 

We can assume that, on top of this, about 1/10th of all human population in Randland is a Darkfriend. Based on the fact that about 1/10th of all Aes Sedai were black.

 

We can assume how many humans in Randland? 2 billion? 3? Less? More?

 

And then you can assume a small percentage of those is willing to become Soulless. So perhaps 1/10th of 1/10th of all humanity running around as nasty assassins. We've had about... what? 30 Greymen mentioned/killed over the course of the series?

 

Then of course there are the Darkhounds. Didn't someone mention packs of a few hundred had been seen in the Blight?

 

And you have the Ravens. And the Rats.

 

The Shadow's army is pretty horrifying.

 

You forgot one Gholam and Slayer. The Gholam alone could kill scores of channelers. He seemed invulnerable to everything except Mat's medallion. And Slayer could make the Gholam more mobile, since his ability to step into Tel'aran'rhiod isn't Channeling (it worked in Far Madding).

[trusken]

I believe there's two points being missed in this discussion; supply lines and morale of the troops once engaged. These two factors (and the weather) dictate the outcome of any battle or war. When you have and army you need to feed it and equip it. The army mustalso have the will to fight the enemy and stay engaged once battle has commenced.

 

When it comes to the Randlanders' morale when fighting shadowspawn we have to break them up into different categories. The elite troops won't break from the fight, and these include the Aiel, the Borderlanders, Mat's troops, the AS and Asha'Man. The regulars

will hold against the Trollocs and MDs, but maybe not some of the nastier shadowspawn. These include your usual professional soldier that's served for about a decade and has seen some action. Then you have your conscripts. These are the new recruits hastily added and mercenary units, and are hardly reliable when the butcher's bill starts to seriously add up. And that's just against normal human opponents, not the hordes of shawdowspawn that the DO will send.

 

Food is going to be a major problem. The chapters with Mat, Gawyn, and Gareth Byrne show us some of the problems their having feeding their soldiers, and the weird weather hasn't helped at all. Even if Rand's mental healing gets the crops growing immediately there is still going to be shortages. How many of the mercenary and conscripts are going to stick around when the only food they have is the calvary's horses? Shadowspawn don't face the same food problems because most of them feed off the enemy dead.

 

All in all the forces of the Light are going to be hard pressed to squeek out a victory. I think there's going to be several huge battles, most of the action off screen, and it's going to be a slaughter on both sides, even with Lan doing his best impression of a

wood chipper running off nuclear power. Then Rand is going to take a small team into Shayol Gul and put a hurting on the DO.

[southwind505]

The shadows numbers might not count for a whole lot if Mat can get his cannons up and running before the last battle. I have a suspicion that Mat asking Aludra to have a look at inovating crosbows might turn up muskets, which would be a real bonus as they are far cheeper to produce than the larger cannons.

[wingedearth]

Why are cannons a big deal, when the One Power can be used as a weapon in battle? Remember the Asha'man blowing up groups of Shaido at Dumai's Well? Remember how the Seanchan Empire was founded? Channeling is the best weapon of war. Even the Aes Sedai can use the One Power as a weapon here, as the enemy is Shadowspawn.

 

As for weather and supply lines, the Light has the Bowl of Winds and Traveling. That should simplify the issues, no? Maybe they should get some Aes Sedai to help grow more food.

[Muad Cheade]

Why are cannons a big deal, when the One Power can be used as a weapon in battle? Remember the Asha'man blowing up groups of Shaido at Dumai's Well? Remember how the Seanchan Empire was founded? Channeling is the best weapon of war. Even the Aes Sedai can use the One Power as a weapon here, as the enemy is Shadowspawn.

It is because not only will Mat be fighting in the very near future but he is also expecting to fight humans (whether they be the Seanchan, Darkfriends, or the Borderlanders). Fighting against humans, Aes Sedai must know for a fact they are Darkfriends or they have to put themselves in danger. Asha'man are arrogant and before you know it, they will be deciding where, when, how and on what terms to fight (I paraphrased Mat's statement). By using cannons, he has the devastation of channeling, but he is fully in control of it's use, rather than having to deal with Aes Sedai or Asha'man.

 

As for weather and supply lines, the Light has the Bowl of Winds and Traveling. That should simplify the issues, no? Maybe they should get some Aes Sedai to help grow more food.

You can't grow crops instantly with the Bowl of Winds and Traveling has to be carefully planned and developed logistically. Even in the AoL, they did not simply Travel to each city because you still had to have a supply train.

 

The shadows numbers might not count for a whole lot if Mat can get his cannons up and running before the last battle. I have a suspicion that Mat asking Aludra to have a look at inovating crosbows might turn up muskets, which would be a real bonus as they are far cheeper to produce than the larger cannons.

It took centuries to go from crossbows to arquebus to muskets. It is unlikely Mat will be able to do so in a few months' time.

[Durinax]

The cannons will be best used in the chokeholds between the blight and randland. like at darwins gap, and other select areas. I would like to know if macha chin still exists though, that could be important in troop movements

[Denizan]

On the subject of morale, what can we expect from the forces of light?  How would their loyalties to their various commanders affect it.  We've seen the kind of loyalty that people like Mat, Iturlde, and Perrin can inspire.  Would their morale drop and their forces scatter in the face of overwhelming numbers and odds or fight on because their lord is there fighting with them?  Will the uncommon soldier, such as the farmer and blacksmith from the tGS prologue, fight on because they know or feel that this is a battle that must be faught?  Would the common soldier or mercenary run when things go bad?  It`s all well and good that the forces of light have cannons and the ability to Travel their armies strategically but if they don`t have the morale to fight, they can still lose.

[Sharaman]

The last time the Westlands were allied was against the Aiel where the C-in-C post was rotated between various Great Captains.

That system has been used in real life several times, usually with variable results - the Anglo-French campaigns of the Crimea and China showed the problems.

This time round, Rand is going to have a delicate task assigning command.

Will the Aiel fight under say, Angelmar Jagad or Rodel, since they fought against them? Ok, the Aiel have not had apparent problems with Bashere so theyll fight under a Shienarian or Domani commander if there's some level of mutual respect.

Will the Westlanders fight under Aiel command?

Can either Aiel or Westlanders handle their combined forces most efficiently?

One lot are contemptuous of cavalry, the other lot of infantry and "savages". 

None of them have much clue about integrating channelers into battles - there, Mat, Perrin and the Seanchan commanders in their own peculiar way are the best.

Will the Seanchan be willing to accept Westland commanders?

What's worse, is that free channelers fighting for the light owe allegiance to either Egwene or Taim or Logain or Rand.

They won't easily integrate with a non-channeler commander who knows much more about war.

Morale will depend on this, whether any unified commander (or every unified commander since there are likely to be several handling disaparate sets of combined forces) can evoke respect and loyalty from all his troops.

 

[BladeDancer]

Don't underestimate the importance of the Travelling ability in military conflicts. The increased mobility and communication enabled by Travelling gives HUGE advantages. If you consider that Trollocs cannot use Gateways then this means only Black Ajah and Dreadlords (plus any surviving Forsaken) can generate Gateways for the Shadow and only darkfriends among the regular troops can really use them to move around.

 

The Light side will be able to use Travelling to jump armies around and have dedicated Reserve forces of elite fighters/channellers in order to reinforce and surround the enemy armies or lay ambushes. Even on a local scale this ability would win many battles - even if you see your enemy cavalry forces going into a gateway but not see where they were emerging you would not know what direction(s) they might attack you from.

 

Using Travelling gateways to notify local or regional HQ's of troop dispositions would enable the light side to have a more complete picture of the disposition of forces and thus enable a more effective tactical response. The communication benefits are huge when the alternatives are communicating by flags or buglers. Also Gateways eliminate the problem of long supply chains being vulnerable to attack.

 

Channellers offer huge firepower advantages over conventional forces being able to move them around where they can be used effectively will be crucial. It's no good having lots of channellers in the wrong place. Travelling also makes the channellers the most mobile elements of the military. 100 channellers can destroy a massive amunt of Trollocs and Mydraal and then withdraw via a gateway if they look like they might be overrun. Indeed it is possible for Channellers to attack shadowspawn through open Gateways using something like fireballs and the Trollocs being unable to reach them or strike back except through using arrows.

 

Using Gateways the Light Forces could be based in Tear and fight a war in Saldea, attacking when they saw an opportunity before retreating back to Tear for some food and a rest!

 

The Ways are so much more limited as they have fixed exits. These could be closed/destroyed or guarded. The Ogiers would be fighting for the Light and so would be able to provide the location of all the Waygates. The Channellers on the side of the Shadow are the Primary Targets for the Light - Rand is rapidly reducing the number of Forsaken, the number of Dreadlords is unkown but is unlikely to be high. Once the number of Shadow Channelers has been reduced then the Trollocs are just fodder. They may gain ground but cannot prevail against Channellers who can Travel. As Darkfriends tend to be from all over the place, it would be tricky to incorporate them into cohesive military units unless they were mixed or small. Darkfriends would be the only effective troops the Shadow would be able to move via Gateways apart the Shadow Channellers. Darkfriends are best used as infiltrators, saboteurs, spys and to betray the Light forces from within at key moments.

[Durinax]

THe key for the dark would be to get df's into the channellers body guards (they will need them to go throuh a gate when first opened to clear the way) so that df's can just start slaying channellers. And although there is only one, the gholam is a key asset since so far only mat and (I am guessing) the seekers are able to hurt it and the seekers do not know they can (I am saying this cause I recall the seekers having a medallion similar to mats I believe)

[Sharaman]

THe key for the dark would be to get df's into the channellers body guards (they will need them to go throuh a gate when first opened to clear the way) so that df's can just start slaying channellers. And although there is only one, the gholam is a key asset since so far only mat and (I am guessing) the seekers are able to hurt it and the seekers do not know they can (I am saying this cause I recall the seekers having a medallion similar to mats I believe)

 

Only Cadsuane seems to have something similar to Mat. If the seekers had such a ter'angreal, if it was that common, the Seanchan damane and Tuon would not have been consistently surprised whenever Mat disrupted the flows. The only ter'angreal the Seanchan make is A'dam - even the bloodknife ter'angreals are from some old store.

Any battle with channellers on both sides will be very fluid. In one of his Q&As, RJ said there is a weave that prevents Gates being woven in specific places. This was used a lot in the AoL on both sides.

 

[Durinax]

THe key for the dark would be to get df's into the channellers body guards (they will need them to go throuh a gate when first opened to clear the way) so that df's can just start slaying channellers. And although there is only one, the gholam is a key asset since so far only mat and (I am guessing) the seekers are able to hurt it and the seekers do not know they can (I am saying this cause I recall the seekers having a medallion similar to mats I believe)

 

Only Cadsuane seems to have something similar to Mat. If the seekers had such a ter'angreal, if it was that common, the Seanchan damane and Tuon would not have been consistently surprised whenever Mat disrupted the flows. The only ter'angreal the Seanchan make is A'dam - even the bloodknife ter'angreals are from some old store.

Any battle with channellers on both sides will be very fluid. In one of his Q&As, RJ said there is a weave that prevents Gates being woven in specific places. This was used a lot in the AoL on both sides.

 

The seekers dont get channelled against, they are above the law and report directly to the empress I believe.

[Sharaman]

THe key for the dark would be to get df's into the channellers body guards (they will need them to go throuh a gate when first opened to clear the way) so that df's can just start slaying channellers. And although there is only one, the gholam is a key asset since so far only mat and (I am guessing) the seekers are able to hurt it and the seekers do not know they can (I am saying this cause I recall the seekers having a medallion similar to mats I believe)

 

Only Cadsuane seems to have something similar to Mat. If the seekers had such a ter'angreal, if it was that common, the Seanchan damane and Tuon would not have been consistently surprised whenever Mat disrupted the flows. The only ter'angreal the Seanchan make is A'dam - even the bloodknife ter'angreals are from some old store.

Any battle with channellers on both sides will be very fluid. In one of his Q&As, RJ said there is a weave that prevents Gates being woven in specific places. This was used a lot in the AoL on both sides.

 

The seekers dont get channelled against, they are above the law and report directly to the empress I believe.

 

Do you have a quote for either your belief about channelers carrying a medal that works like Mat's ter'angreal, or for your belief that seekers don't get channeled against?

I think you're wrong on both counts.

 

 

[thewalrus777]

THe key for the dark would be to get df's into the channellers body guards (they will need them to go throuh a gate when first opened to clear the way) so that df's can just start slaying channellers. And although there is only one, the gholam is a key asset since so far only mat and (I am guessing) the seekers are able to hurt it and the seekers do not know they can (I am saying this cause I recall the seekers having a medallion similar to mats I believe)

 

Only Cadsuane seems to have something similar to Mat. If the seekers had such a ter'angreal, if it was that common, the Seanchan damane and Tuon would not have been consistently surprised whenever Mat disrupted the flows. The only ter'angreal the Seanchan make is A'dam - even the bloodknife ter'angreals are from some old store.

Any battle with channellers on both sides will be very fluid. In one of his Q&As, RJ said there is a weave that prevents Gates being woven in specific places. This was used a lot in the AoL on both sides.

 

The seekers dont get channelled against, they are above the law and report directly to the empress I believe.

 

Do you have a quote for either your belief about channelers carrying a medal that works like Mat's ter'angreal, or for your belief that seekers don't get channeled against?

I think you're wrong on both counts.

 

 

 

No one carries a medal like Mat's. Cadsuane has a ter'angreal that disrupts masking weaves, such as mask of mirrors and hiding strenght in the OP. But we've seen nothing like Mat's medallion anywhere else in the series.

[Muad Cheade]

Don't underestimate the importance of the Travelling ability in military conflicts. The increased mobility and communication enabled by Travelling gives HUGE advantages. If you consider that Trollocs cannot use Gateways then this means only Black Ajah and Dreadlords (plus any surviving Forsaken) can generate Gateways for the Shadow and only darkfriends among the regular troops can really use them to move around.

 

The Light side will be able to use Travelling to jump armies around and have dedicated Reserve forces of elite fighters/channellers in order to reinforce and surround the enemy armies or lay ambushes. Even on a local scale this ability would win many battles - even if you see your enemy cavalry forces going into a gateway but not see where they were emerging you would not know what direction(s) they might attack you from.

 

Using Travelling gateways to notify local or regional HQ's of troop dispositions would enable the light side to have a more complete picture of the disposition of forces and thus enable a more effective tactical response. The communication benefits are huge when the alternatives are communicating by flags or buglers. Also Gateways eliminate the problem of long supply chains being vulnerable to attack.

 

Channellers offer huge firepower advantages over conventional forces being able to move them around where they can be used effectively will be crucial. It's no good having lots of channellers in the wrong place. Travelling also makes the channellers the most mobile elements of the military. 100 channellers can destroy a massive amunt of Trollocs and Mydraal and then withdraw via a gateway if they look like they might be overrun. Indeed it is possible for Channellers to attack shadowspawn through open Gateways using something like fireballs and the Trollocs being unable to reach them or strike back except through using arrows.

 

Using Gateways the Light Forces could be based in Tear and fight a war in Saldea, attacking when they saw an opportunity before retreating back to Tear for some food and a rest!

 

The Ways are so much more limited as they have fixed exits. These could be closed/destroyed or guarded. The Ogiers would be fighting for the Light and so would be able to provide the location of all the Waygates. The Channellers on the side of the Shadow are the Primary Targets for the Light - Rand is rapidly reducing the number of Forsaken, the number of Dreadlords is unkown but is unlikely to be high. Once the number of Shadow Channelers has been reduced then the Trollocs are just fodder. They may gain ground but cannot prevail against Channellers who can Travel. As Darkfriends tend to be from all over the place, it would be tricky to incorporate them into cohesive military units unless they were mixed or small. Darkfriends would be the only effective troops the Shadow would be able to move via Gateways apart the Shadow Channellers. Darkfriends are best used as infiltrators, saboteurs, spys and to betray the Light forces from within at key moments.

You are overestimating the Power of Gateways and Traveling.

 

This is what RJ had to say on the matter of using Traveling in warfare.

 

Week 14 Question: Military strategy in the War of Power must have been odd, indeed. How do the concepts of capturing and holding territory even make sense in a world where forces can Travel?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Good question, though not all of the forces involved could use gateways. (Rafo! Rafo!) Think of the ability to Travel in terms of moving troops via aircraft, and you will begin to get the picture. Even with the largest possible circles, there are limits to the size of gateways and thus limits to the front along which you can move troops out through it, the numbers you can commit simultaneously. Of course, you can use multiple gateways, but each is still only so large and can admit only so many soldiers at a time.

 

So-called front lines were very fluid, but you couldn't fling your forces in anywhere without regard to what would be surrounding them or how you were going to re-supply, reinforce or withdraw them. Although no one has shown it so far in the books, there are ways to interfere with the making of a gateway - and ways to defend against interference - so the battle would take place on many levels. Yes, any area you hold can be attacked by your enemy, and you can attack any area that he holds. (Part of the result was great destruction and a great fall-off in the ability to produce high tech items. By the time the Bore was sealed, soldiers were already much, much more likely to ride horses and carry swords than to ride armored vehicles or aircraft and carry shocklances, which had all become very rare.) But holding an area is not impossible so long as you can successfully disrupt your opponent's attempts to make gateways into it. Even if he manages to get those first soldiers in, if you can disrupt his ability to reinforce, re-supply or withdraw, it becomes another Dien Bien Phu for him. Of course, if you fail, then it becomes Gettysburg or Waterloo, a bloody fight that will be decisive for somebody. At least until the next "decisive" battle is fought. Remember, that designation is always given after the fact, by historians."

[Durinax]

No one carries a medal like Mat's. Cadsuane has a ter'angreal that disrupts masking weaves, such as mask of mirrors and hiding strenght in the OP. But we've seen nothing like Mat's medallion anywhere else in the series.

I thoguht seekers had a medallion like mats, and it is against the Seanchan law to kill an seeker or even to hinder his investigation, we saw this from a PoV (maybe egeanins not sure). Plus I think it would make sense if someone made medallions like mats in seanchan considering their fear of channelling and their ability to create ter'angreal

[BladeDancer]

Don't underestimate the importance of the Travelling ability in military conflicts. The increased mobility and communication enabled by Travelling gives HUGE advantages. If you consider that Trollocs cannot use Gateways then this means only Black Ajah and Dreadlords (plus any surviving Forsaken) can generate Gateways for the Shadow and only darkfriends among the regular troops can really use them to move around.

 

The Light side will be able to use Travelling to jump armies around and have dedicated Reserve forces of elite fighters/channellers in order to reinforce and surround the enemy armies or lay ambushes. Even on a local scale this ability would win many battles - even if you see your enemy cavalry forces going into a gateway but not see where they were emerging you would not know what direction(s) they might attack you from.

 

Using Travelling gateways to notify local or regional HQ's of troop dispositions would enable the light side to have a more complete picture of the disposition of forces and thus enable a more effective tactical response. The communication benefits are huge when the alternatives are communicating by flags or buglers. Also Gateways eliminate the problem of long supply chains being vulnerable to attack.

 

Channellers offer huge firepower advantages over conventional forces being able to move them around where they can be used effectively will be crucial. It's no good having lots of channellers in the wrong place. Travelling also makes the channellers the most mobile elements of the military. 100 channellers can destroy a massive amunt of Trollocs and Mydraal and then withdraw via a gateway if they look like they might be overrun. Indeed it is possible for Channellers to attack shadowspawn through open Gateways using something like fireballs and the Trollocs being unable to reach them or strike back except through using arrows.

 

Using Gateways the Light Forces could be based in Tear and fight a war in Saldea, attacking when they saw an opportunity before retreating back to Tear for some food and a rest!

 

The Ways are so much more limited as they have fixed exits. These could be closed/destroyed or guarded. The Ogiers would be fighting for the Light and so would be able to provide the location of all the Waygates. The Channellers on the side of the Shadow are the Primary Targets for the Light - Rand is rapidly reducing the number of Forsaken, the number of Dreadlords is unkown but is unlikely to be high. Once the number of Shadow Channelers has been reduced then the Trollocs are just fodder. They may gain ground but cannot prevail against Channellers who can Travel. As Darkfriends tend to be from all over the place, it would be tricky to incorporate them into cohesive military units unless they were mixed or small. Darkfriends would be the only effective troops the Shadow would be able to move via Gateways apart the Shadow Channellers. Darkfriends are best used as infiltrators, saboteurs, spys and to betray the Light forces from within at key moments.

You are overestimating the Power of Gateways and Traveling.

 

This is what RJ had to say on the matter of using Traveling in warfare.

 

Week 14 Question: Military strategy in the War of Power must have been odd, indeed. How do the concepts of capturing and holding territory even make sense in a world where forces can Travel?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Good question, though not all of the forces involved could use gateways. (Rafo! Rafo!) Think of the ability to Travel in terms of moving troops via aircraft, and you will begin to get the picture. Even with the largest possible circles, there are limits to the size of gateways and thus limits to the front along which you can move troops out through it, the numbers you can commit simultaneously. Of course, you can use multiple gateways, but each is still only so large and can admit only so many soldiers at a time.

 

So-called front lines were very fluid, but you couldn't fling your forces in anywhere without regard to what would be surrounding them or how you were going to re-supply, reinforce or withdraw them. Although no one has shown it so far in the books, there are ways to interfere with the making of a gateway - and ways to defend against interference - so the battle would take place on many levels. Yes, any area you hold can be attacked by your enemy, and you can attack any area that he holds. (Part of the result was great destruction and a great fall-off in the ability to produce high tech items. By the time the Bore was sealed, soldiers were already much, much more likely to ride horses and carry swords than to ride armored vehicles or aircraft and carry shocklances, which had all become very rare.) But holding an area is not impossible so long as you can successfully disrupt your opponent's attempts to make gateways into it. Even if he manages to get those first soldiers in, if you can disrupt his ability to reinforce, re-supply or withdraw, it becomes another Dien Bien Phu for him. Of course, if you fail, then it becomes Gettysburg or Waterloo, a bloody fight that will be decisive for somebody. At least until the next "decisive" battle is fought. Remember, that designation is always given after the fact, by historians."

 

I don't think I am. Even RJ writes about having to disrupt Gateways. Presumably this is done using Channelling.

 

I am not talking about jumping 50,000 troops through but much smaller elite forces for either ambushes, hit and run attacks or reinforcement. How long will it take to move 100 Channellers through a gateway? Not long at all - how many people can leave a building through a door in 2 minutes? You can get 60 people through a normal width doorway in a minute. 100 Asha'man could kill thousands of ShadowSpawn and then leave with no casualties. And then they could do this over and over again. Some of the Channelling group could concentrate on a shield above the group to protect from lightening strikes or opposition Channeling attacks, some would maintain the Gateways, some would be tasked with slowing down the approaching Shadowspawn (Moraine successfully created a mini-earthquake and flame-wall which held off ShadowSpawn for 10 minutes at least.) and the rest could be exploding the enemy like at Dumai Wells. It would be possible to  quickly fortify a position by using the OP to dig trenches/pits or raise walls. You could have 100 Aiel with you to act as bodyguards in case the Shadow also gates to your position.

 

The Trolloc Wars would have been over much quicker if the Aes Sedai of the time had Travelling. Manatheran would not have fallen for a start as Aemonds Army would have been there ahead of time plus reinforcements would have been at most hours away. We are talking about a time where folks can travel as far and as fast as horses can in a day. Gateways make a huge difference.

 

Rand has successfully invaded Caemlyn with only one Gateway and only using Skimming. Egwene easily could have invaded the White Tower using Gateways.

 

RJ uses an analogy about aircraft but he should have said that using Aircraft you can strike at the enemy and cause significant damage while remaining relatively secure. Gateways can be used in the same way.

 

The Shadows only hope are their own Channellers - and do they have enough?

[USURP888]

I believe Mat would become the overall commander of the entire alliance army. With the great captains, Aiel, Seanchan and the other factions commanding their own forces but taking orders themselves on where to deploy from Mat.

 

1. Mat has Rand's confidence, Rand knows that Mat got something out of the elfinn and aelfinn (sp).

2. Bashere was impressed by Mat's skill when they were planning the Illian campaign.

3. Egwene also knows Mat's battle skill, not to mention Moiraine. Gareth Bryne would be on board.

4. Lan definitely respects Mat's battle planning ability as shown in the battle with the shaido for cairhien.

5. Birgitte who likes and respects Mat alot would certainly tell Elayne (not to mention Rand) that Mat is the best leader.

6. Fortuona (tuon) has already seen Mat's skill in tactics, not to mention the fact that Gen. Loune and perhaps all the seanchan generals were really impressed and scared by how effective Mat's raids and ambushes on their camps were.

7. Rhuarc would be onboard too, Mat has a lot of honor among the Aiel for being the hornsounder and for killing couladin.

8. The windfinder that Mat helped escape from the seanchan would almost certainly mean He would have a standing Navy as well.

9. With 2 of the great captains on the team, I'm sure Agelmar Jagad would agree to be under Mat as well.

 

I really believe that Mat would be the compromise everyone can agree to on the alliance side to lead the humans against the trolloc army.

 

[wingedearth]

I believe Mat would become the overall commander of the entire alliance army. With the great captains, Aiel, Seanchan and the other factions commanding their own forces but taking orders themselves on where to deploy from Mat.

 

1. Mat has Rand's confidence, Rand knows that Mat got something out of the elfinn and aelfinn (sp).

2. Bashere was impressed by Mat's skill when they were planning the Illian campaign.

3. Egwene also knows Mat's battle skill, not to mention Moiraine. Gareth Bryne would be on board.

4. Lan definitely respects Mat's battle planning ability as shown in the battle with the shaido for cairhien.

5. Birgitte who likes and respects Mat alot would certainly tell Elayne (not to mention Rand) that Mat is the best leader.

6. Fortuona (tuon) has already seen Mat's skill in tactics, not to mention the fact that Gen. Loune and perhaps all the seanchan generals were really impressed and scared by how effective Mat's raids and ambushes on their camps were.

7. Rhuarc would be onboard too, Mat has a lot of honor among the Aiel for being the hornsounder and for killing couladin.

8. The windfinder that Mat helped escape from the seanchan would almost certainly mean He would have a standing Navy as well.

9. With 2 of the great captains on the team, I'm sure Agelmar Jagad would agree to be under Mat as well.

 

I really believe that Mat would be the compromise everyone can agree to on the alliance side to lead the humans against the trolloc army.

 

 

Mat would be a great general, but why not Rand as overall commander? Rand has the war knowledge and experience of Lews Therin Telamon, with experience as overall commander during the War of the Shadow. It's true that Mat has experience from the Trolloc Wars, which had about the same technology as Rand-times, as well as channelers on both sides, but Rand is the Dragon, after all.

[wingedearth]

Maybe Shadowspawn can't Travel, but they should at least be able to use Portal Stones to move armies, no?

 

As for the forces of Light, if I were Rand I'd work on finding a way to make moving gateways, to forcibly Travel enemy armies. Or otherwise, Rand and some Ashaman could create gateways and push enemy armies through them with weaves of Air.  At this point, a good tactic would be to engage Seanchan armies and forcibly Travel them into the Blasted Lands, where they have no choice but to fight Trolloc hordes. This would be a kill-two-birds-with-one-stone manuever.

 

As of the end of TGS, Rand's biggest strategic problem is having his forces sandwiches between Seanchan invaders and the Dark One's armies in the Blight. Am I right that getting them to fight each other is the best solution?

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I know I might get crucified for blasphemy here, but I don’t think RJ thought this one through too much…

Week 14 Question: Military strategy in the War of Power must have been odd, indeed. How do the concepts of capturing and holding territory even make sense in a world where forces can Travel?

Even with the largest possible circles, there are limits to the size of gateways and thus limits to the front along which you can move troops out through it, the numbers you can commit simultaneously. Of course, you can use multiple gateways, but each is still only so large and can admit only so many soldiers at a time.

Sure.

 

However, we’re also seeing unprecedented numbers of channelers in the world at the world at the moment. What are all those new Novices and Accepted going to do? One possible use is batteries for Circles for the express purpose of creating Gateways.

 

Plus, we’re not necessarily talking about huge numbers of combatants. We could easily be considering a strike force of Ashaman. You could get a group of guys on horseback to charge through a gateway in no time at all. We’ve seen the Saldeans do it. That wouldn’t necessitate a huge gateway.

So-called front lines were very fluid, but you couldn't fling your forces in anywhere without regard to what would be surrounding them or how you were going to re-supply, reinforce or withdraw them.

This one doesn’t make much sense to me.

1. Why is re-supply an issue if they hit their target and withdraw through the Gateway?

2. Why is reinforcement an issue if they’re doing the above? And, if everything goes wrong and they do need to be reinforced, why can’t more men be Gated to them?

3. Surely, withdrawal is merely a case of walking back through the Gateway? Or at worse, opening a new Gateway…

Although no one has shown it so far in the books, there are ways to interfere with the making of a gateway - and ways to defend against interference - so the battle would take place on many levels.

So, Gateways are not the be all and end all of combat.

 

Did anyone expect them to be?

Yes, any area you hold can be attacked by your enemy, and you can attack any area that he holds. …. But holding an area is not impossible so long as you can successfully disrupt your opponent's attempts to make gateways into it. Even if he manages to get those first soldiers in, if you can disrupt his ability to reinforce, re-supply or withdraw, it becomes another Dien Bien Phu for him. Of course, if you fail, then it becomes Gettysburg or Waterloo, a bloody fight that will be decisive for somebody. At least until the next "decisive" battle is fought. Remember, that designation is always given after the fact, by historians."

So, like any other military strategy, there are countermoves that can be made, and moves that, in turn, can be made to react to those moves.

 

At the end of the day, Rand has far more (documented) channelers than the DO. He also has Mat, Bashere and Ituralde onside as of right now. If those three can’t come up with a way to use channelers in an innovative way, then I’ll eat my hat.

 

Not saying that the various methods of moving men will dictate the outcome of the war, merely that RJ saying “there are ways to disrupt it” is a bit of a woolly response. At least not in my mind.

 

EDIT: Fixed wall of text

[Sharaman]

I don't think RJ worked out Travel with great attention to detail and he had to retcon as he went along.

Ok you must "know" the place you're travelling from or else skim, or Travel short distances in order to know the place, but it's never been entirely clear how you find a destination.

Consider

1) Avi randomly goes somewhere she doesn't know, when she's panicked - could she go back by saying "that place where Rand and I had it off?"

 

2) In multiple instances, people go to places they've never been. Do they just say " a few miles from Ebou Dar" or "The manor house in Tear" or "that place with the statue, which Perrin was camping around" or "Somewhere in Ghealdean"  or "random spot where we're supposed to rendezvous"? In certain cases, they have the name of the place, if that's important. In others, it's just a unnamed destination.

 

3)They can't find a place by saying "wherever Graendal is" because she's confident few people can find her. So people aren;t markers.

 

Given this lack of clarity, a lot of channeling battles would consist of trying to scout out the oppositions' forces and discover where exactly they were. Complicated.

 

 

[USURP888]

Mat would be a great general, but why not Rand as overall commander? Rand has the war knowledge and experience of Lews Therin Telamon, with experience as overall commander during the War of the Shadow. It's true that Mat has experience from the Trolloc Wars, which had about the same technology as Rand-times, as well as channelers on both sides, but Rand is the Dragon, after all.

 

I believe Mat is a better tactician than Rand. Lews Therin's experience is but one lifetime's worth of experience. Mat has hundreds of war experiences in his head, battles won and more importantly, battles lost and how he lost.

 

Another reason why I believe Rand would make Mat be the overall commander is that the Seanchan would never agree to be under the Dragon banner, at best they would agree on a temporary alliance with Rand. Remember the prophecy says the Great battle done but the world not done with battle. It makes me think that after the Last Battle with the DO, the uneasy alliance under the Light would break and they would fight amongst themselves again.

 

Lastly, Rand would have to go to Shayol Ghul and confront the DO there to seal the bore. He would not be able to re-assess and adjust strategies for the allied forces against the dark if he's focused on that mission with I suspect but a few companions along or even alone.