The Metaphysics of the Wheel

[dapianoplay3r]

It has to be a natural rebirth though doesnt it? When the wheel gets back to their turning. Thats why the DO cant bring them back

[Luckers]

Yes it has to be a natural death. As for why the Dark One can't bring them back, I always assumed that it was because the Dark One had to secure their soul immediately upon their death, and that due to balefire it meant their soul had gone too far into death for him to grab.

[dapianoplay3r]

Rand should go dark so when he dies he can be reborn and then switch sides again

[Luckers]

I'm pretty sure that if the Dragon ever opened himself to the Shadow, the Dark One would snuff him out of existence.

[dapianoplay3r]

apparently the dragon has fought for shadow before

[Luckers]

apparently the dragon has fought for shadow before

 

No. Once again, Ishamael lied when he stated that. The Dragon has never fought for the Shadow.

[Durinax]

I think that rand has to turn to the shadow in order for the DO to have his final victory

[dapianoplay3r]

Ok that makes sense. A forsaken lying. Who would have guessed lol. Nevermind my theory then

[Ashaman Kovan]

What happens to someone's soul once they are balefired. Is the thread cut but the soul part undamaged and just recast into the big blob of stuff waiting to be sent out once more?

 

Their Thread (Including their Soul) is completely burned from the Pattern. They won't ever be reborn again. As far as we know.

 

Incorrect. Both RJ and Brandon comments on this at different times. People who are balefired can be reborn.

 

ORLY? I always thought that them not being reborn again I.E. not part of the Pattern anymore was what makes it so dangerous to use. Sortof...

[Nightstrike]

I believe it's the paradoxes that are dangerous. The Pattern can unravel.

[Diederichos]

Did RJ/BS confirm that Ishamael was lying?

[Nightstrike]

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

 

It was also mentioned that balefire does not mean that someone can’t be reborn into the Pattern. I was very surprised by this and hadn’t heard it before, but apparently Brandon has said it in previous Q&A sessions. Brandon said he was also surprised but that Maria was very insistent about this – so if the Dragon Reborn was balefired, he could still be reborn.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Chester County Books, Philadelphia 6 November 2009 - Paul Grow reporting

 

Brandon said someone killed by balefire could be reborn and woven back into the Pattern later, but the Dark One cannot resurrect that person.

 

 

[Luckers]

Indeed.

In addition.

 

Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.

 

[John Novak: post-TPOD book-signing [Northern Virginia - 21 November, 1998]: ]

 

Did RJ/BS confirm that Ishamael was lying?

 

IT was he that told us it.

[nategator]

About Ishy lying about facing the Dragon many times in the past...I think that tension is wrapped into why a lot of the Forsaken went Dark to begin with (as well as maybe Taim if he is minion Taim and not IshyTaim).  Many of the males went Dark because they were jealous of the Dragon.  Their inflated egos couldn't handle someone else being number 1, so they went to play for the other team.  Kinda like Kobe and Shaq, instead of Kobe having a Bulls dynasty he raped a white girl (allegedly) and got Shaq kicked off (allegedly).  But I digress..

 

 

Ok, so in Ishy's messed up view of the world, he is just as important as the Dragon.  So therefore of course he gets reincarnated every time, just like the dragon.  The guy is a philosopher, he can lie to himself just as well as he can lie to others.

 

Anyways, Ishy:

 

1. Could be telling the truth

2. Could be wrong cause his nilhistic pro-DO viewpoint is messed up

3. Could be lying.

 

That's the problem with citing what lying liars say when making an argument.

 

By the way, one of the things I wrote above was a lie.  The rest I believe are true.

[Diederichos]

What exactly are the Creator and the DO? I mean, if they're a two-sided God, does that not mean that essentially the Pattern, the One Power, everything is derived from them directly or indirectly? And is Lanfear's comment that she and Rand could challenge them the biggest arrogant thing ever? Or are they more like two very powerful beings but that are still within the PAttern itself and the Pattern is the big-dog? The latter would make Lanfear's comment possibly, remotely plausible but still.

[Durinax]

I see the creator and the DO as symbollic representations of order and chaos, and as such they are technically outside of the pattern and are ever prevellant. And Lanfear is very arrogent, mortals cannot challenge a ever prevellant attribute of the universe.

 

Also I believe that the war of power was so bad because they tried to suppress and eliminate chaos and it created too much pressure and all of a sudden it burst and all the 'suppressed' attributes came back in strength

[Nightstrike]

@Diederichos (quotes copied from Theoryland)

 

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man? Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things altogether?

RJ: Err, they are... Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real.

Kurafire: So threads and souls are the same thing?

RJ:  Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment. The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 1997

 

Brandon from Mission Viejo: Mr. Jordan, it's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each Age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off -- kick over the table and run for the window.

 

Compuserve chat June 1996 ("the latest CIS chat")

 

Martin Reznick asks: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?  

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books... it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

America On-Line chat #1 1996 ("The Two AOL chats after ACOS")

 

Rog in CT asks: Because the Wheel of Time contains the Dark One's prison, and the Ages repeat with each revolution, then isn't humanity itself also imprisoned....unable to truly evolve?  

RJ: No. :)