The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Ashaman Kovan]

And he's had tutoring from Asmo

 

 

And memories from LTT.

[Netizen]

This probably isn't it, but what about Berelain and the Aiel?

 

Berelain & Faile fell out over Perrin almost as soon as they met, then they had a fight in the Stone which Rhuarc broke up. Then Rhuarc & Berelain are told to look after Carhein for Rand.

 

Subsequently, we find that Berelain is treated almost as a daughter by the Wise Ones & Rhuarc (Egwene's POV). What's that all about?

[bronnt]

This probably isn't it, but what about Berelain and the Aiel?

 

Berelain & Faile fell out over Perrin almost as soon as they met, then they had a fight in the Stone which Rhuarc broke up. Then Rhuarc & Berelain are told to look after Carhein for Rand.

 

Subsequently, we find that Berelain is treated almost as a daughter by the Wise Ones & Rhuarc (Egwene's POV). What's that all about?

 

While we don't know what that's really about, I don't see how it could be the BUT.  It's certainly something that's been overlooked...but I can't see if having any significance for the story, either. 

 

I think it's just one of those peculiar Aiel relationships, where she's taking council from the Aiel and they give her some amount of respect since she's a "woman-chief" and willing to listen to their advice.  Maybe sort of an apprentice Wise One, but they don't make her go through the whole deal because she doesn't practice their customs.

[papertiger]

Hey, just chiming in. Haven't been to the forum in a while and was looking over this thread. In the early 200's there's a discussion about the siswai'aman who have abandoned clan and sept to follow Rand, and that this new society may be the BUT. Didn't read it all the way through, but it gave me an idea.

 

What if Aiel Darkfriends are using the siswai'aman to gather as an army? It's the perfect excuse to get close to Rand and also to set the stage for the Last Battle.

 

I'm not saying all the siswai'aman are darkfriends, just that it presents an opportunity for darkfriends across various clans to join forces.

[Luckers]

Well. I've been compiling the list of the viable Big Thing ideas (it's not done yet, but hopefully soon) and I think I've decided on what I think it is. Originally I thought I wouldn't fall behind one thing or another and just wait for ToM to come out--it's such a open field that Brandon left us that I didn't think it was possible to actually wade one particular one out of the squillions--but my recent idea stands out to me [i'm slow by the way, others already caught this  ;D].

 

Besides, what fun is it if no one backs a thing? This way, when I'm wrong, you can laugh at me for being so arrogant as to think I'd figured it out.

 

So. I'm calling it. The Big Unnoticed Thing With Future Epic Importance is...

 

The Unseen Watchers of Tel’aran’rhiod

 

The first citing of the girls feeling eyes on them in Tel'aran'rhiod occurs in book four...

 

Studying the columns herself, Egwene shrugged uncomfortably. It did feel as if, they were being watched. No doubt it was just because they were the only people in the Stone. No one who had access to Tel'aran'rhiod could expect to find anyone to watch, here. [tSR;35, Sharp Lessons]

 

First mentioned in book 4, with heavy mention in through books four and five, slows down a bit in book 6, and then has one mention each in books 7, 9 &10(which fits what Brandon said about it continuing on quietly after book six in the background). Here are some of the quotes.

 

"...She had the sensation of being watched from the dimnesses between the columns..."

"...The emptiness of the vast chamber oppressed her, all those great polished columns and that sense of being watched from the dimness between..."

”... there was often a feel of unseen eyes in the World of Dreams…”

"...that sensation of being watched that was so common in Tel’aran ‘rhiod. It was all Nynaeve could do not to flee..."

“…Suddenly very much aware of feeling unseen eyes…”

“…She had almost grown accustomed to the feel of unseen eyes in this vast chamber…”

“…Even the feel of unseen eyes could not touch her through her anger this morning…”

“…often she had the feeling of eyes watching…”

"...calling [Egwene] did nothing except increase that uneasy feeling of being watched..."

"...she became aware of being watched by unseen eyes. That sensation was always present in Tel'aran'rhiod, and not even the Wise Ones knew why..."

"...The ever-present sensation of unseen eyes watching was not dreamlike..."

"...That no longer seemed any odder to her than the feel of unseen eyes watching..."

 

So, first mentioned in book four, they are then mentioned nearly every time the girls enter the Dreamworld in book five, but then it slows down again (but still continues on). This has never been discussed in detail that I recall, and whilst I can’t see the specific result, it has a distinct foreboding about it. I have no problem, looking at that group of quotes, thinking that something dire is going to come from this. Something big.

 

Furthermore, and most significantly, Brandon said we'd slap ourselves for not having thought about this issue when we found out what it was. And in hindsight the Unseen Eyes stand out from all the other theories because it was an oddity that we should have noticed and discussed long since.

 

 

 

 

So that's my call. I'm on record now, and look forward to being laughed at for my hubris at thinking I've figured this out.  ;D

[Paerish Swar]

Luckers!

 

Interesting theory - don't yet know how I feel about it. I'm still digesting.

 

Some questions.

 

I'm curious about one of the quotes:  "...she became aware of being watched by unseen eyes.  That sensation was always present in Tel'aran'rhiod, and not even the Wise Ones knew why..."

 

Is this something the Wise Ones have always known about but could never explain?  Is this something that has occurred recently in T'a'r and the Wise Ones have noticed it too, but again have no explanation for?  Would an AoL Dreamwalker from before the opening of the Bore have noticed "unseen eyes" as well?

 

I think you know where I'm going with this.

 

Is the feeling of being watched just a normal part of T'a'r, which may or may not have any consequence in the development of the story, or is it indicative of something more sinister?  Something that could be very important?  Something having to do with the nature of how the Bore was sealed and the DO's ability to influence or observe the world?

 

In what other way could it be important?

 

I don't know how I feel about the theory just yet, but as you can see it has opened up a whole set of new questions for me.

 

Good show!

 

Can't wait to see your complete list. 

[Entretamis]

so im 1/3 through LoC and i came across something that is also in tSR.

 

i mentioned on a previous post on this thread that when lanfear is in the waste she is the fat lady, keille i think is spelled. well she pinches mat and she does not lose her disguise.

 

in LoC Grendal takes the form of the old sickly lady and then takes the arm of a minor lordling while she goes and meets with antoher lord retaining the same form.

 

i think this is important becuase the both mainting a much different look than they actually are, and can be touched with out disrupting the wave.

 

i have not gotten to the part when Moghedin tell Nyn and Elayne about the MoM wave..but i think this shoudl be taken into consideration.

 

is one of the few things (if not the only one so far) that is mentioned in 4 and 6.

 

The importance. Im thinking maybe can hint who really Massana is. Yea i know we think is Danelle, but maybe thinking of this it coudl be the Mistress of Novice, and not Keeper S something.

 

Or maybe, i read it here somewhere....Faile is really Demandred.

[Luckers]

I'm curious about one of the quotes:  "...she became aware of being watched by unseen eyes.  That sensation was always present in Tel'aran'rhiod, and not even the Wise Ones knew why..."

 

Is this something the Wise Ones have always known about but could never explain?  Is this something that has occurred recently in T'a'r and the Wise Ones have noticed it too, but again have no explanation for?  Would an AoL Dreamwalker from before the opening of the Bore have noticed "unseen eyes" as well?

 

I was wondering that myself. It is curious that Egwene makes no mention of it in tDR, though that could simply be a lack of experience.

 

In what other way could it be important?

 

I have some ideas on what the Unseen Eyes may mean, but I want them to percolate a while longer before posting about it--consider though the similarity to the unseen eyes in Shadar Logoth, and the sensation of unseen eyes that Rand and Liandrin feel at the beginning of tGH--possibly Fain? It is noted, for instance, that Fain was staring right at where the Amyrlin's quarters where (which also means at Liandrin's quarters).

 

:). In any case, whatever the significance or result may be, I'm putting my money on this being the BUT--it fits Brandon's comments very comfortably. Besides, I figure casual discussion has gone on long enough, that's why I compiled a structured list of all the BUT viables that I've found on the various forums in a couple of days--there are about thirty in my shortlist so far. Then people can start picking sides--it's always fun once clear sides form, lol. :)

 

 

i mentioned on a previous post on this thread that when lanfear is in the waste she is the fat lady, keille i think is spelled. well she pinches mat and she does not lose her disguise.

 

in LoC Grendal takes the form of the old sickly lady and then takes the arm of a minor lordling while she goes and meets with antoher lord retaining the same form.

 

It takes touching or movement of the Illusion itself to break it--Keile's finger and Graendal's arm wouldn't bother the main parts of the illusion.

 

With Graendal, Sammael clearly thinks the Illusion will break, and it probably would have--we never see it stressed. Lanfear though... I've always wondered how hers lasted so well. Maybe people can have Talents with Illusion? Mesaana can't even keep the colour of her dress right, but Semirhage can hide a full foot or more of height.

[JenLenaMom]

Interesting Luckers. I had always sort of figured that the unseen eyes were the Heroes waiting to be reborn. That's where we first meet Birgite and it's clear she's been watching Nyn and Perrin before she ever appears to them. Or maybe TAR is where ALL souls wait to be reborn, just not in as much consciousness as the Heroes?

 

Not saying that it's not the BUT just that's why I never thought much about it.

[Luckers]

Interesting Luckers. I had always sort of figured that the unseen eyes were the Heroes waiting to be reborn. That's where we first meet Birgite and it's clear she's been watching Nyn and Perrin before she ever appears to them.

 

Except Nynaeve infers that she asked Birgitte about them, and she has no knowledge of what they are (and she would be aware of the Heroes).

 

The emptiness of the vast chamber oppressed her, all those great polished columns and that sense of being watched from the dimness between. If there really was anybody there, Birgitte would have known.

 

Of course its possible that Nynaeve presumed Birgitte would have spoken up, but I dunno...

 

Additionally, though, there's the simple fact that there is a sinister feel to these eyes, and it just doesn't feel like it matches with what the Heroes are capable of--making themselves completely unknown, and so on.

 

But yes, I suppose it could be the Heroes. Maybe the BUT is a darkfriend realises this and figures out someone to kill them all in the Dream? Birgitte broke the Precepts, after all, and that may have exposed the others to danger. I really, really doubt this is the case, but I suppose it's possible.

 

 

Or maybe TAR is where ALL souls wait to be reborn, just not in as much consciousness as the Heroes?

 

Nah, RJ said there was a seperate place where normal souls awaited rebirth.

[JenLenaMom]

Interesting Luckers. I had always sort of figured that the unseen eyes were the Heroes waiting to be reborn. That's where we first meet Birgite and it's clear she's been watching Nyn and Perrin before she ever appears to them.

 

Except Nynaeve infers that she asked Birgitte about them, and she has no knowledge of what they are (and she would be aware of the Heroes).

 

I had forgotten about that.

Or maybe TAR is where ALL souls wait to be reborn, just not in as much consciousness as the Heroes?

 

Nah, RJ said there was a seperate place where normal souls awaited rebirth.

 

and that.

 

I bow to your superior memory, lol. :D

[Packar]

Concerning the TAR precepts...where did they come from? Were they handed down from one particular...thing/entity? Or is it more a "general consensus" of the Heroes awaiting the call/rebirth?

[Netizen]

Well. I've been compiling the list of the viable Big Thing ideas (it's not done yet, but hopefully soon) and I think I've decided on what I think it is. Originally I thought I wouldn't fall behind one thing or another and just wait for ToM to come out--it's such a open field that Brandon left us that I didn't think it was possible to actually wade one particular one out of the squillions--but my recent idea stands out to me.

 

Besides, what fun is it if no one backs a thing? This way, when I'm wrong, you can laugh at me for being so arrogant as to think I'd figured it out.

 

So. I'm calling it. The Big Unnoticed Thing With Future Epic Importance is...

 

The Unseen Watchers of Tel’aran’rhiod

 

[...]

 

So that's my call. I'm on record now, and look forward to being laughed at for my hubris at thinking I've figured this out.  ;D

 

Yay - I suggested this on p193!

Do I get a prize? :)

[insane_ashaman]

I have to agree with you Luckers, good position to take. I've been pretty convinced the BUT had to be something involving TAR, just couldn't decide on what because there are so many options within TAR. I used to think it involved being in TAR in the flesh, but through a re-read of TDR I noticed that both Rand and Perrin make trips to TAR in the flesh, so that doesn't fit the time frame. Waiting for TOM....

[Luckers]

Yay - I suggested this on p193!

Do I get a prize?

 

Sure. You get to be laughed at with me when we're wrong.  ;D

[Owayn The Traveller]

An crapola I can't remember what mine stab in the dark was and I was certsin of it. Guess I'm going to have to wade through the thread to find it again. It was something.

 

BTW that could very much be it Luckers. It just feels right. Im behind thta if cant remember my own. :P

[Druugan]

I know I was leaning towards the headbands, but I had completely forgotten about the unknown watchers in TAR.  I think I'll support both ideas so I can be doubly wrong when ToM comes out.  :)

[Netizen]

Yay - I suggested this on p193!

Do I get a prize?

 

Sure. You get to be laughed at with me when we're wrong.  ;D

 

:D

 

 

[bronnt]

I like it Luckers.  Though when you capitalize "Unseen Eyes," I picture a big, fiery, disembodied eye-it's tough to get beyond LotR parallels.

 

Demandred comments that he's shocked by things the DO knows.  And what he doesn't know.  Is it possible that the DO is more accessible to events that happen in T'A'R?  He knows Rahvin died by BF, which occurs in T'a'R.  That's the only quick reference I can come up to support the DO idea, but I'm sure there are more. 

 

The fact that Sammael knows that Nynaeve and Elayne are searching for a storehouse of OP objects in Ebou Dar is also suspect-how would he have known about it?  We do know some Forsaken can spy in T'a'R, but Sammael isn't listed as one with significant abilities there.  I've always assumed he made some sort of visit to Shayol Ghul sometime in the LoC-ACoS timeline.  It's in ACoS that he gives his directions to Carridin.

 

It's possible, but very unsupported.

[Great Lord of the Dark]

I think the only thing that fits is Verin's secret, but that's been discussed before...and I didn't feel like reading 2000 pages of chatter

[Luckers]

An crapola I can't remember what mine stab in the dark was and I was certsin of it. Guess I'm going to have to wade through the thread to find it again. It was something.

 

I dunno if it helps, I've spent the past week going through them pulling out the good ideas--god knows I'll have missed some, I don't know if my eyes will ever be able to properly focus again--but if you wanna wait a few more days before wading in and I'll throw up my shortlist, maybe it'll save you the pain I just went through.  :)

 

I like it Luckers.  Though when you capitalize "Unseen Eyes," I picture a big, fiery, disembodied eye-it's tough to get beyond LotR parallels.

 

Lol, that didn't occurr to me... there are worse parallels I suppose--I just liked the sound of it. The Unseen Eyes of Tel'aran'rhiod--it sounds dire--like TAR is a cave for some terrible monster. Say it aloud.

 

Yes. I really am this geeky.  ;D

 

Demandred comments that he's shocked by things the DO knows.  And what he doesn't know.  Is it possible that the DO is more accessible to events that happen in T'A'R?  He knows Rahvin died by BF, which occurs in T'a'R.  That's the only quick reference I can come up to support the DO idea, but I'm sure there are more.

 

That didn't occur to me either, but its a good idea--I've been looking at the Fain, Shadar Logoth, Machin Shin angles--unrelated evils. But the Dark One could be it.

 

The fact that Sammael knows that Nynaeve and Elayne are searching for a storehouse of OP objects in Ebou Dar is also suspect-how would he have known about it?  We do know some Forsaken can spy in T'a'R, but Sammael isn't listed as one with significant abilities there.  I've always assumed he made some sort of visit to Shayol Ghul sometime in the LoC-ACoS timeline.  It's in ACoS that he gives his directions to Carridin.

 

Amongst others they told Sheriam, and she was Black. She or any other Black Rebel who heard the girls talking about it could have passed it on to Sammael.

 

I think the only thing that fits is Verin's secret, but that's been discussed before...and I didn't feel like reading 2000 pages of chatter

 

I havn't encountered the Verin secret idea yet, could you give a quick hash of it from what you remember?

[Knobs Mahoney]

The Dreaded Beast of Aaaaaaaaaaargh...

[Luckers]

The Dreaded Beast of Aaaaaaaaaaargh...

 

Slayer of Asmodean?

[shinerfan]

Concerning the TAR precepts...where did they come from? Were they handed down from one particular...thing/entity? Or is it more a "general consensus" of the Heroes awaiting the call/rebirth?

 

 

 

After seeing Luckers' collection of references to the unseen eyes, I've gotta say its a pretty compelling theory. Sort of the shotgun on the wall kinda deal. Which makes Packers question about the precepts all the more interesting. If the Creator will take no part who else is there to set the precepts? The other Heroes of the Horn are an obvious answer but if they oppose the Shadow in turning after turning of the wheel why would they restrict themselves to only fighting the Shadow in the flesh?

[shinerfan]

Another thought, the Horn of Valere doesn't seem to be connected to the One Power. So who made it? The Creator? DO? The Pattern itself? Deus ex machina?