The One Power (Full Book Spoilers)--No Balefire!

[richnewton82]

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[Nightstrike]

The parts I was referring to are later in what I had quoted.  here are the parts i think relevant bolded.

Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same.  That will both attract one another and negate one another.

It doesn't say that he didn't have to channel saidin. The conduit was made of saidar. The two evils attracted each other for sure. But I think he needed to actually channel saidin. Otherwise they just needed to initiate the thing, and then leave it be.

[richnewton82]

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[Nightstrike]

I've just reread the chapter (the parts where Rand & Nynaeve figure). It doesn't say anything about them not actively channeling. The closest is "He had to hold on. He had to.". That's the nature of controlling saidin - and Choedan Kal amounts of it. The chapter also says that saidin was flooding through him. Saidar was flooding through Nynaeve as well. They were actively channeling. That's what I see happening.

 

 

 

[elec1cele]

I believe Rand had to be trying to channel saidin thru the saidar conduit.  After the connection was made and the 2 evils started attracting each other, I am not sure if at that point he was actively channeling or just letting the attraction pull what was needed but, IIRC it still all had to go thru him.

 

In my mind it had always seemed like he started out channeling a lot of saidin and it brought a little bit of the taint, but the longer he maintained the link the more taint their was and the less saidin.

[richnewton82]

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[Nightstrike]

OK, I take it that by "actively channeling" you mean that they could have stopped the flow? And that they just didn't "close" themselves off from the True Source? Maybe that's a possibility, but I've always thought they were consciously channeling for all what they were worth.

 

[richnewton82]

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[garion]

I think at a certain point Rand and Nyn kind of became angreal for the TS to go through.  They were channeling but only because it was being drawn through them.  They became the spring for the river of water so to speak.

[elec1cele]

I'm saying that Rand used Saidar (actually it was probably LTT since rand didn't know what he was doing at the time) to build the conduit, then started forcing Saidin through it, didn't feel much happen, but then Nyn said to "go on" and after awhile it was just a torrent rushing through them both. He and Nynaeve were just holding on. he couldn't even see and we know if you can't see then you can't weave. He wasn't weaving so much as allowing power to flow through him for 8 hours straight. Nyn was just a battery for the entire thing so she wasn't weaving for sure.

 

So maybe 'actively channeling' should just be replaced with 'weaving.'

 

 

And actually in CoT it even says that the amount of Saidin used is much much higher than the amount of Saidar. Which makes sense because the amount of water that can be forced through a hose is much greater than the hose itself. Nyn was used to create the conduit and sustain it. Through Rand every drop of Saidin in the universe flowed in 8 hours. I don't understand how he survived at all (see as how Nynaeve was near death herself) or why the female CK broke.

 

A couple of things you can weave if you can't see it is just harder.

 

Someone asked how difficult it is for a blind person to channel, but I didn’t make a note of who.  In any case, it is difficult but not impossible.  The different flows have different feels, though saying they have different flavors might be as accurate.  In the comic, we use colors, not because they actually have colors but because they also can be told apart by sight.  Someone who was blind and who tried to learn to channel would be able to differentiate between flows of the Five Powers.  The difficulty would be in learning to make the weaves.

 

I don't think Rand channeled all of saidin thru him.  Once the link was made I think he needed to keep pushing saidin thru the conduit although as time went on more and more taint went as well. 

 

I don't recall the book's saying they were near death. I just thought that all the channeling they did completely exhausted them.  Like Egwene after the Seanchan raid.

[Nightstrike]

I don't think Rand channeled all of saidin thru him.

Only things mentioned in that chapter is that saidin flowed through Rand & saidar flowed through Nynaeve. Only conclusion is that it flowed through them.

 

 

[draconian]

I don't think Rand channeled all of saidin thru him.

Only things mentioned in that chapter is that saidin flowed through Rand & saidar flowed through Nynaeve. Only conclusion is that it flowed through them.

i reread the chapter and rand made a bridge from saidin to shadar logoth so i dont think that it was following though him completely

[elec1cele]

I don't think Rand channeled all of saidin thru him.

Only things mentioned in that chapter is that saidin flowed through Rand & saidar flowed through Nynaeve. Only conclusion is that it flowed through them.

 

I think it likely that what was channeled at Shadar Logoth was channeled thru Rand although their is the possibility the conduit had a direct feed.  What I was trying to say is I don't think rand channeled every bit of saidin their is to be channeled or even that every bit of saidin went into Shadar Logoth.

 

I just don't see it as necessary to complete the cleansing.  Also I think if all of saidin had been funneled into Shadar Logoth it would have resulted in a lot more destruction.

[wumpus]

The taint was described as being like an oil slick on top of pure water. Every time Rand reached for Saidin he touched the taint in the process driving him closer to madness just like the other male channelers. The darkness of Shadar Logoth was evil, but it was not dark one evil and tries to destroy dark one evil - we learn this from the two wounds balancing each other out, fighting each other which is were Rand gets the idea. He creates a bridge using saidar from Shadar Logoth to Saidin then forces Saidin through the bridge until it touches Shadar Logoth, the evil of Shadar Logoth is then drawn up into Saidin and destroys the taint and itself in the process. It was like priming a siphon.

[elec1cele]

The taint was described as being like an oil slick on top of pure water. Every time Rand reached for Saidin he touched the taint in the process driving him closer to madness just like the other male channelers. The darkness of Shadar Logoth was evil, but it was not dark one evil and tries to destroy dark one evil - we learn this from the two wounds balancing each other out, fighting each other which is were Rand gets the idea. He creates a bridge using saidar from Shadar Logoth to Saidin then forces Saidin through the bridge until it touches Shadar Logoth, the evil of Shadar Logoth is then drawn up into Saidin and destroys the taint and itself in the process. It was like priming a siphon.

 

I had always assumed the taint was drawn into Shadar Logoth and the two evils fighting each other is what destoryed the city.  If they fought each other on top of saidin what destroyed the city?

 

Q: I was wondering: how did Rand stop the taint by channeling at Shadar Logoth? Because you said the taint and the evil at Shadar Logoth are different. Also, because Shadar Logoth came well after the taint, was there any way to stop it?

RJ: No, there was no way to stop it or make it weaker (the Shadar Logoth evil). But when Rand made the conduit, they were attracted to each other due to opposite polarities, and they were attracted to each other and destroyed each other because of those differences, and it created a huge explosion.

 

Seems to me the explosion happened at Shadar Logoth so that is where the evil's were mixing it up.

[richnewton82]

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[elec1cele]

To get all of the taint into SL he had to get all of Saidin to pass through SL. If there was any 'filtering' involved, SL was the filter and Saidin passed through it, leaving the taint behind to explode at the end.

 

I agree with most of what you are saying.  The taint is described as a film sitting on top of the ocean of saidin.  I don't see it being necessary to channel the whole ocean to clean the surface.  I agree that massive amounts of saidin were channeled.  I just don't think it was all of saidin.  instead I think it was just what was needed to clean the surface of the taint.

 

I am not sure it is possible to know the answer to this for sure.  This is just howI think it would work based on what we know of the WOT world.

[coteaz]

There is an RJ quote that says saidin is finite, but when you use your weave, the power to create said weave (saidin/saidar) returns to the source. So all rand did was pull a huge amount continuously so that the entire amount had been pulled through and the taint deposited in SL.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

RJ stated that Tar Valon has a population of around 500,000. Most of the other capitals are larger, but for the sake of argument lets stick to Tar Valon. That's around 8 million in the large cities. There must be at least twice that if not more (considerably more, in my opinion) in the other towns and villages.

 

So in effect yes we do know that the number of female channelers at the very least exceeds 100,000.

 

 

 

The other cities are smaller. Caemlyn and the like such as Tear and Tanchico have around 300,000. That still leaves the total capital population about 5 million, which means the population of the continent has to be 100 million plus if the rural population is in the same proportion as it was in medieval Europe.

 

This means there must be at the last hundreds of thousands of women with the potential to channel strongly enough to be Aes Sedai.

[elec1cele]

I understand saidin is finite if it was infinite then the taint would have been as well.  If the taint was mixed with saidin then it would make sense that you need to pull all of saidin thru the conduit to cleanse it.  

 

But the taint is separate from saidin it is described as a thin film you need to reach thru to draw saidin.  Now from various effects we can see that when you use saidin some of the taint comes with it to infect whatever you are doing with the taint.  For the most part these effects seem to not matter although sometimes they produce large corruption(e.g. the black wind).

 

Now as he channel's saidin thru the conduit some of the taint comes with it.  IIRC while Rand is channeling the longer he maintains the link the more of taint is going thru the conduit. this says to me that the amount of taint that is coming from saidin is not constant and by the end he is channeling more of the taint then he is of saidin.

 

Now sense we know that their is less taint then there is saidin.  It seems logical to me that if he is moving more taint then saidin thru the conduit he wouldn't need to channel all of saidin to get all of the taint into Shadar Logoth.

 

I am prolly over analyzing this but this is what makes sense to me.

[Nightstrike]

The other cities are smaller. Caemlyn and the like such as Tear and Tanchico have around 300,000. That still leaves the total capital population about 5 million, which means the population of the continent has to be 100 million plus if the rural population is in the same proportion as it was in medieval Europe.

 

This means there must be at the last hundreds of thousands of women with the potential to channel strongly enough to be Aes Sedai.

We don't know exactly how large the population is. I seriously doubt it is anywhere near 100 million. Even so, we don't know how many that even want to be Aes Sedai. Tear was shut off from any testing of women. Amadicia likewise.

[Charlz Guybon]

The continent's 7million sq miles and blanketed in rivers and fertile. Even half empty it should have that many people. There's no way that the massive armies quoted could exist and be supported elsewise. Medieval France had twenty million people before the Black Death hit.

[Nightstrike]

OK, Charlz Guybon (are you the reader that got his name in the book?), then how do you explain this:

 

RJ’s blog:

For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool.  They have been very efficient at this.  As a result, the “present day” sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

 

TGH, 40:

“…there are always many more sul'dam than damane…”

 

Damane live several times as long as any sul'dam, because they are channeling while sul'dam don’t.

 

 

TPoD, 30:  (concerning the “too old” novices in Egwene’s camp)

“Most by far would never wear the shawl.”

– ˃ Compare that to 62.5 percent of all being able to wear the shawl.

 

 

Example assuming all Aes Sedai are sparkers:

Lets assume, for sake of argument, that 10 percent of all were sparkers & all sparkers were strong enough to earn the shawl.

 

62.5 percent of all can become Aes Sedai.

 

Of the learners, ((62.5-10)/(100-10)=) 58 percent would be strong enough to earn the shawl. Far less than 50 percent of the new novices will ever wear the shawl. Meaning, there must have been testing &selection going on.

 

 

[coteaz]

The continent's 7million sq miles and blanketed in rivers and fertile. Even half empty it should have that many people. There's no way that the massive armies quoted could exist and be supported elsewise. Medieval France had twenty million people before the Black Death hit.

 

And is not randland about the size of Europe?

[Nightstrike]

We don't know how big the population is. I think many women don't wanna become Aes Sedai. And that several countries are more or less shut off from Aes Sedai testing. Many of the "too old" novices are women who always wanted to become Aes Sedai, but who were deemed unworthy before.