Mistake in TFoH?

[bjclinton]

My brother is reading the series for the first time (its about time!) and he brought to my attention what he thought was an error in The Shadow Rising. I havent read it in awhile, but i dont think he left anythign out, which leads me to believe he may have found an error. Here's what he came up with- i'd be interested in hearing any explanations since i cuoldn't come up with a viable one other than "maybe you missed something":

 

Chapter 6: At the end of the chapter, Rand is informed that the Shaido have begun moving towards Jangai Pass, and Rand announces that they will follow.

 

Chapter 20: Rand and the Aiel enter Jangai pass, and have been traveling from Rhuidean for half a month. They approach the first town, Taien. The town has had been attacked by Couladin and the Shaido, who came through ONLY SIX days ago.

 

Chapter 23: After 4 days, they reach the western end of the pass and are entering Cairhien.

 

Chapter 24: Egwene tells Elayne in Tel'aran'rhiod that they are in Cairhien, and are still days behind Couladin and the Shaido.

 

Chapter 29: Kadere is in his wagon about a quarter of a mile from the town of Eianrod. In his wagon, he thinks about Keille disappearing about 2 months ago (making them only 2 months from the end of The Shadow Rising, and therefore much less than 2 months since they left Rhuidean).

 

Chapter 30: Rand stands on a bridge in Eianrod. A escort of men on horses arrive under Aiel escort. they are Tairens and Cairhienin from the city of Cairhien. They say that Couladin and the Shaido have attacked Cairhien and laid siege. This group escaped to seek help. Rhuarc says they can be in Cairhien in 7 days. The Cairhien refugees scoff at the concept of seven days, saying it took them about as long to get to Eianrod from Cairhien on horseback.

 

This indicates, that the Shaido and Couladin have already been at the city of Cairhien for AT LEAST 7 days, and Rand is still 7 days behind them. That means that when Couladin arrived at Cairhien, Rand was AT LEAST 14 days behind him (assuming the group on horseback left the day Couladin arrived in Cairhien, which seems unlikely based on the accounts of brutal stories describing what Couladin and the Shaido have been doing).

 

His point was that he couldn't figure out how Rand went from being 6 days behind Couladin, traveling from sun up to sun down and actually gaining a day by the Jengai pass, to losing 14 days.

 

His follow up email, in math terms:

 

For the math nerds:

 

According to that data

 

Rhuidean->Taien takes 14 days

Taien->Cairhien side of Jangai Pass takes 4 days

Jangai Pass->Eianrod takes X days

Eianrod->Cairhien City takes 7 days

 

So

 

Rhuidean->Cairhien City = 25+X

Taien->Cairhien City = 11+X

 

11 days plus the trip from Western edge of Jangai Pass to Eianrod is how long it takes Rand to get from Taien to Cairhien.

 

so in X+4 days, Rand went from being 6 days behind to being 14+ days behind, even though AFTER X Egwene's reference to Elayne indicated that they had not lost any time as they were still only days behind.

 

When doing your research, keep one other important thing in mind. If there is a way to explain how the Shaido gained so much time, Rand and crew should be surprised that they are so far behind. If it was an error, they would seem to not think anything of it much like they in fact did. I'm guessing he just f'd up his math and the whole time figured they were about 7 days behind, so stuck with the 7 day thing forgetting that he would have to include the travel time of the guys that fled.

 

 

 

 

[WWWwombat]

You included more info than needed but your brother's logic seems impeccable.  Either they lost some serious time or RJ made a booboo.

[mb]

The scenes mentioned, those are in Fires of Heaven; not in Shadow Rising.

 

How did the Shaido gain time?

One or more of these may have been a factor:

-starting times (Shaido started before Rand's camp)

-distance from the starting points (Shaido's starting location was closer to the pass)

-number of things both groups carried (Shaido carried less things)

-average speed of both groups (Shaido was all Aiel [which are faster than most people], Rand's camp had a number of non-Aiel)

-number and/or length of breaks of both groups (Rand's camp had to have a number of breaks)

 

The mentioned scenes only tell the progress of Rand's camp, not the Shaido's progress.

 

[Talmanes]

This may be a flaw but there are a few things that you must take into account though:

1. The only reason that Rand's Aiel ever got as close as they did Taien is because the Shaido had stopped there.

2. Rand's Aiel have to scout and track the Shaido, while the Shaido know where they  are going and therefore we can assume that they are moving somewhat faster.

3. Rand and his Aiel did not move constantly. They stopped at certain places longer than the Shaido would have.

4. The whole entire group of Aiel probably was not present when they took Carhien. Most of them probably stayed behind at first considering the huge amount of them there were. Also there wer tons of Shaido that wouldn't be a part of the fight such as children, Wise Ones,blacksmiths/craftsmen, women that aren't Maidens, etc. So the whole group most likely entered Carhien later than the whole attack party.

5. Since the Shaido knew they were being followed they most likely traveled with more speed than Rand's Aiel. They could have example traveled through the night instead of always making a camp like Rand's Aiel.

Overall it may be a flaw but there is a lot to take into account that makes it make sense as not being a flaw.

[bjclinton]

The scenes mentioned, those are in Fires of Heaven; not in Shadow Rising.

 

How did the Shaido gain time?

One or more of these may have been a factor:

-starting times (Shaido started before Rand's camp)

-distance from the starting points (Shaido's starting location was closer to the pass)

-number of things both groups carried (Shaido carried less things)

-average speed of both groups (Shaido was all Aiel [which are faster than most people], Rand's camp had a number of non-Aiel)

-number and/or length of breaks of both groups (Rand's camp had to have a number of breaks)

 

The mentioned scenes only tell the progress of Rand's camp, not the Shaido's progress.

 

 

-starting times (Shaido started before Rand's camp)

 

True, but i addressed that already- they started 7 days before Rand, yet gained more than 2 weeks.

 

-distance from the starting points (Shaido's starting location was closer to the pass)

 

This theory takes place from the Jengai pass referencing a 6 day differential, so it is irrelevant where they started from

 

-number of things both groups carried (Shaido carried less things)

 

At what point is that referrenced, or are you just assuming? If anything, they carried more. We know for fact that they took a number of Gaishan from that Village and the village was also looted.

 

-average speed of both groups (Shaido was all Aiel [which are faster than most people], Rand's camp had a number of non-Aiel)

 

Non-Aiel were on horse. Shaido's group also had non Aiel (see prior answer). Wouldn't account for a 2 week differencial. Still doesn't address the fact that they were gaining on the according to Egwene.

 

-number and/or length of breaks of both groups (Rand's camp had to have a number of breaks)

 

Which ones, other than the ones that i referenced that have timelines? On the contrary, they traveled all day long without stopping according to all descriptions. At MOST, they spend a half a day in that small town and there's a specific time reference there.

 

The mentioned scenes only tell the progress of Rand's camp, not the Shaido's progress.

 

Not true- We see a Shaido time line 3x in the mentioned scenes. Jengai Pass, The raided town, and the Tairen soldiers on Horse.

[bjclinton]

This may be a flaw but there are a few things that you must take into account though:

1. The only reason that Rand's Aiel ever got as close as they did Taien is because the Shaido had stopped there.

2. Rand's Aiel have to scout and track the Shaido, while the Shaido know where they  are going and therefore we can assume that they are moving somewhat faster.

3. Rand and his Aiel did not move constantly. They stopped at certain places longer than the Shaido would have.

4. The whole entire group of Aiel probably was not present when they took Carhien. Most of them probably stayed behind at first considering the huge amount of them there were. Also there wer tons of Shaido that wouldn't be a part of the fight such as children, Wise Ones,blacksmiths/craftsmen, women that aren't Maidens, etc. So the whole group most likely entered Carhien later than the whole attack party.

5. Since the Shaido knew they were being followed they most likely traveled with more speed than Rand's Aiel. They could have example traveled through the night instead of always making a camp like Rand's Aiel.

Overall it may be a flaw but there is a lot to take into account that makes it make sense as not being a flaw.

 

1. The only reason that Rand's Aiel ever got as close as they did Taien is because the Shaido had stopped there.

 

But we dont know how long, and the village is small. Considering the Aiel were large enough to attack Cairhien, they could have swept over that village in less than a day. Also, Couladin's departure with his Aiel is referenced in the timeline above and they lost no ground based on the "message" that he had for Rand.

 

2. Rand's Aiel have to scout and track the Shaido, while the Shaido know where they  are going and therefore we can assume that they are moving somewhat faster.

 

We have no accounting for any lost time due to tracking. Also, the Aiel as we know from other parts of this story can track as quickly and efficiently as anyone....i think Elayne, blindfolded, could follow and entire Army over the course of a week without losing more than a few hours.

 

3. Rand and his Aiel did not move constantly. They stopped at certain places longer than the Shaido would have.

 

Which places would they have stopped at? I mentioned all documented stops.

 

4. The whole entire group of Aiel probably was not present when they took Carhien. Most of them probably stayed behind at first considering the huge amount of them there were. Also there wer tons of Shaido that wouldn't be a part of the fight such as children, Wise Ones,blacksmiths/craftsmen, women that aren't Maidens, etc. So the whole group most likely entered Carhien later than the whole attack party.

 

This is something that i considered as well, but unfortunately, it requires the use of the word "probably" and therefore doesn't really hold much water. Also, the attacking parting was there long enough to lay seige to an entire city (one of the largest in the book)- for 7 days by the time those soldiers reached Rand. That means they were established and large enough to be there en force.

 

5. Since the Shaido knew they were being followed they most likely traveled with more speed than Rand's Aiel. They could have example traveled through the night instead of always making a camp like Rand's Aiel.

 

Rand, Rhuarc and company would have fallen off their horses upon hearing that they went from gaining 1 day on them, halfway through their chase, to losing a week. Even the Shaido need rest. Rand and company pressed as hard as they could to get there from that town adn it took them 6 days. It wouldn't be possible for hte Shaido to do it in much less time.

 

Overall it may be a flaw but there is a lot to take into account that makes it make sense as not being a flaw.

 

i have yet to be convinced otherwise :)

[bjclinton]

The Shaido had begun moving towards Jangai Pass 7 days prior to Rand (TFoH ch6/ch20). Rand arrived at Taien 2 weeks later, only 6 days after the Shaido (TFoH ch20). This means that the Shaido were in Taien only 8 days after Rand left Rhuidean. That means that it took the Shaido 15 days to get to Taien from wherever they were in the Aiel Waste, though we don't know how much distance they had to cover in that 15 days.

 

Rand was pushing to catch them as quickly as possible. At the end of chapter 6, Rand is told that they won't be able to catch Couladin, but Rand says he means to be right behind him.

 

The Shaido were ALSO not traveling with JUST Aiel. All along the way, they were taking men, women, and children as gaishein from the villages they were raiding. These slaves were not Aiel, and if anything would have slowed the Shaido down even more than Rand's group was traveling. In Rand's group, the humans were on horses, so they could travel as fast as the Aiel on foot. Quote from Chapter 20, Rand

POV:

 

'Half a month since he had left Rhuidean. Half a month, though the Aiel had set a pace afoot from sunup to sundown that wearied the horses. But Couladin had been moving this way a week before he learned of it. If they had not managed to close any ground, he would have that long to ravage Cairhien before Rand could reach it.'

 

Rand and all of his many Aiel advisors are very smart, and the Aiel Chiefs are aware of the situation and land. They believed they were traveling at least as fast as the Shaido, if not faster. And wherever Couladin was traveling FROM, Rand says that if they don't make up any ground, the Shaido will have a week to ravage Cairhien before Rand arrives.

 

Rand and crew get to the other side of Jangai Pass 4 days later near a town called Selean (ch23). Quote: 'Couladin had left another message, men and women impaled across their path, standing there seven days dead'. After 4 days of travel, they had lost maybe 1 day and are still only 7 days behind Couladin/Shaido and are now in Cairhien land.

 

The only gap in time is from Selean to Eianrod. In Eianrod, Rand speaks to horseback riders who say they left Cairhien on horseback, and it was undear seige by the Shaido (ch30). One of the lords says that Couladin called upon Cairhien to surrender to 'He Who Comes With The Dawn' [Couladin] on the 2nd day (meaning Couladin had been there already for at least 2 days). Rhuarc told Rand it would take 7 days to get to Cairhien from Eianrod, and Estean scoffed at the thought, saying that it took them 7 days to arrive FROM Cairhien on horseback.

 

This means at the scene in Eianrod, Couladin had been at Cairhien City for at least 9 days already, and therefore were in Eianrod at least 16 days before Rand, but were in Selean only 7 days before Rand. The Shaido got from Selean to Eianrod in 9 days LESS time than Rand? The lowest possible number to reflect that is it took the Shaido 1 day, and Rand 10 days? Traveling from sun up to sun down, with their humans on horses, not stopping to attack villages along the way? there is ZERO accounting for that, and here's the proof. Rand, Rhuarc, and none of the others were even surprised that they were so far behind now...

and there's only one possible reason for that.... because this is a continuity/timeline error, and RJ didn't realize that the numbers he used didn't add up.

 

[humanraindelay]

Maybe the Shaido knew a short cut?

 

 

That was sarcasm by the way.  Maybe it could just be explained away that Rands group simply misscalculated how far ahead the Shaido were. Didn't Rands group have a group of merchant wagons with them? That had to slow them down a little atleast. Or maybe RJ just made a slight goof? One that I never would have caught onto if it wasn't pointed out to me.

[bjclinton]

I think it ultimately comes down to what a few of you have confirmed after offering some suggestions, which is that it was a mistake in timeline calcluation.

 

Its kind of hard, after so many years, to find a mistake in these books, which is why I wanted to see if anyone had a significant detail that I or he missed. I was kind of hoping that this post would fish that out, but nothing so far.

 

Maj...Luckers....Mr Ares....i'm hoping one of the heavy hitters that have this series memorized will come out with riviting evidence that would explain the missing time.

[Talmanes]

I just wanted to point out that in the WoT a week is ten days.

[WWWwombat]

I just wanted to point out that in the WoT a week is ten days.

 

After the early books, yes.

[Mr Ares]

I just wanted to point out that in the WoT a week is ten days.

From book 6 onwards.

 

From the WOTFAQ:

Rob Bauer points out that the length of a week for TEOTW and TGH does not match with that used in later books. Steven Cooper confirms the discrepancy:

 

Basically, what we know boils down to this:

 

  1. TEOTW and TGH are clearly written with our standard calendar of 7-day weeks and 30/31-day months in mind.

 

      The clearest indication of this is when Moiraine is talking to Nynaeve in [TEOTW: 21, Listen to the Wind, 264]: "You felt nothing special at the time, but a week or ten days later you had your first reaction to touching the True Source." The phrases 'a week' and 'ten days' must obviously refer to different lengths of time here.

 

      Also, Egwene and Nynaeve spend thirteen weeks training in the Tower before Liandrin lures them away [TGH: 38, Practice, 452]. Since they started training just after Sunday (the summer solstice), it makes sense for her to refer to "the first chill of approaching autumn" later in the chapter. If RJ was using a 10-day week in this book (i.e. 130 days of training compared to 91), they would be right in the middle of autumn here.

 

      There are plenty of other indicators in the first two books that RJ started the series using our standard calendar -- these are just the most obvious. It's impossible to construct a consistent timeline for these two books if the later 10-day week is assumed.

 

  2. LOC and books after it are equally clearly written with the 10-day week, 28-day month calendar being used.

 

      This calendar is specified explicitly in the Glossaries of LOC, ACOS and COT. All of the references to weeks and months from LOC onwards fit this new calendar -- for example, Myrelle's answer when Egwene asks her how many days she has had Lan: "Only two weeks," Myrelle replied. "Today is the twentieth." [ACOS: 12, A Morning of Victory, 237]

 

  3. Therefore, somewhere between writing TDR and LOC, RJ changed his mind about the calendar for some reason.

 

      TDR has so few indications of how much time elapses between events that even to construct a timeline at all is a very speculative exercise (it's by far the hardest book in the series to do this for).

 

      From Chapter 2 of TSR onwards there's enough information to construct an accurate timeline, but neither TSR nor TFOH enable us to tell whether RJ was using the old or the new calendar -- whenever "weeks" and "months" are mentioned, they're used in a vague rather than an exact sense.

 

      I'd say it's most likely that the notion of a different calendar for Randland occurred to RJ during the writing of LOC. Hence the sudden appearance of a glossary entry for the calendar in that book.