The Seanchan

[Dionysus]

One of the bigger mysteries in tWoT is the role the Seanchan are going to play in Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Rand has made it his mission to achieve an alliance with the Seanchan, moving out a large portion of his troops to Illian and Arad Doman to stop the Seanchan advances and perhaps force them into an alliance.

 

Egwene dreams of an attack against the White Tower by the Seanchan, and that one will save her. We see some evidence of this throughout the books as well.

 

Tuon and Mat get married, but Mat still expects to meet the Seanchan on the battlefield.

 

For A Memory of Light, what do you think will happen?

 

Will Rand get an alliance with the Seanchan? Will this be before or after the attack on the White Tower? Will Semirhage play any role? What will the nature of their alliance be if it is made? If an alliance isnt made, what does that mean for Rand? Who will be the Seanchan that saves Egwene?

 

EDIT: Also, if an alliance is made, what do you think will be the terms? Is it possible that Tuon could agree to help Rand for Tarmon Gai'don, if in return Rand will help her quell the chaos in Seandar which Semirhage sowed.

[algspkr]

I believe the first interaction we will see between the Seanchan and the Westlanders in AMoL will be the attack on the Tower. I do not know how that will play out but I expect the AS to win.

 

This fight will shock both the Seanchan (the AS too) and I believe that when she hears of it Tuon will be more ameniable to a truce and alliance of convience with Rand. She will probably think of it like Stalin and Hitler thought of their nonagression pact.

 

After that they will fight TG which will be increadably bloody and weaken all participating parties, but due to Tuon precarious position, three conquered countries behind her and her homeland in chaos she will accept an extended truce afterwards. The peace will be precarious, and we will probably not see more than that.

[Dionysus]

Was the plan to attack the White Tower produced before or after Tuon's disappearance?

 

Now that she is the Empress, may she live forever, it is reasonable to assume that she has become aware of the plan to attack the White Tower even if it was produced after Tuon's disappearance.

 

Maybe it is too late to call back the force.

 

Maybe she is still fond of the idea, but after meeting with Rand she changes her mind and tries to stop it.

 

Maybe she gets defeated at Tar Valon and makes an alliance with Rand to retain whatever she can.

[Rhetrus]

hmmm...

 

Would it be possible that the Seanchan who 'saves' Egwene (in her dream) is Tuon arriving to call a ceasefire after her truce with Rand?

[Dionysus]

hmmm...

 

Would it be possible that the Seanchan who 'saves' Egwene (in her dream) is Tuon arriving to call a ceasefire after her truce with Rand?

 

hehe, I am writing a theory right now and that is what I believe. They make the truce, but it is too late to stop the attack but she goes to try and stop it with a gateway while it is happening, and saving Egwene.

[ono-neko]

I don't know how the seanchan will attack WT. But what I want to see is having WT becoming a battle ground, and the WT itself crumble. Why? It has been their symbol of power and arrogance for thousands of years. They have been controlling the land by saying "it's for the good of the realm", but in fact twisted so that most of the time it's all for "the good of the WT".

 

Once WT crumbles, AS will start learn how to be humble, just as much as I think the AM will also learn humility, which a lot of people guessing probably from Cadsuane. When AS learns humility, they will again function as their name implies, "servant" to serve the realm, not "rule" the realm like chess-pieces.

 

Well, that's what I want anyway :)

[algspkr]

hmmm...

 

Would it be possible that the Seanchan who 'saves' Egwene (in her dream) is Tuon arriving to call a ceasefire after her truce with Rand?

 

hehe, I am writing a theory right now and that is what I believe. They make the truce, but it is too late to stop the attack but she goes to try and stop it with a gateway while it is happening, and saving Egwene.

I like this idea, but I think the Seanchan from Egwene's dream is Eganin/Lelwin

[Luckers]

I don't know how the seanchan will attack WT.

 

It seems, given the evidence, that the Seanchan will attack by air with a force moved from Tarabon to the White Tower by to'raken and raken (which, according to the rough idea of their numbers and ability to carry people its estimated the seanchan could land a force of around 12,000 in Tar Valon without having to stop between Tarabon and Tar Valon--there are roughly a thousand to'raken and raken in Randland, to'raken can carry between 6 and 12 people)

 

 

As for what i think will happen. My suspicion is that the battle will be fought to a stand still. Due to the new weaves and the Rebel presense i suspect the city will become a battleground with neither side winning out. I think at that stage a Trolloc force out of the borderlands will reach Tar Valon (having been delayed and held back by Lan) and that at the same time the Black Ajah will be forced into the open by Pevara and the others who i think will capture, or face Alviarin. The Aes Sedai will take the brunt of the Trolloc assault, and the Seanchan will stand back until Tuon arrives with Rand. the vision about a seanchan woman saving Egwene will be that Tuon will lead the Seanchan to attack the Trollocs, stopping the Aes Sedai from being overrun.

[Pevin]

I think I am missing something here, or severly underestimating Seanchan forces.

 

In the west (Tarabon, Almoth Plain, Arad Domon) they have a huge army trapped by Itulrade in Arad Domon, and their airsupport was just ordered to return to Amadica/Altara. I would presume Turan's force in Arad Domon would be the bulk of what they have in the west, and Itulrade raids should have caused a significant amount of damage/disruption. Maybe damane will save their hides, but it seems to me the west is in bad shape for the Seanchan.

 

In the South, They have at least three armies (I'm guessing). One was with Perrin in Altara. One very large army was on the southwest border of Andor, but is now well on its way marching back to Altara. And I would presume there would be quite the force in Ebou Dar with Tuon. Mat's forray in the south must also have cost the Seanchan dearly.

 

Am I missing any other large Seanchan forces?

 

All of this is to say that I don't think they are going to attack the White Tower.

 

Here's why.

 

1) The forces they do have seem to be in bad shape at the moment. It would take a lot of time to get ready for that major of an offensive, and surely Rand will have met with Tuon by then. I'm assuming that meeting will end successfully for the light--meaning some sort of armistice will be reached one way or another that precludes an attack on the WT.

 

2) Why would they attack the White Tower (which hasn't caused them any problems yet) when they have Ghealdin, Arad Domon, Illian, and Andor all close at hand? If they were to undertake another major offensive, wouldn't it make more strategic sense to go after one of them?

 

3) From a writer's perspective, RJ needs to turn a corner with the Seanchan. Either they need to start looking better and come onto the protagonist side of the fence, or they need to get firmly placed on the antagonist side and get wiped out (as all American stories have the antagonists losing :D ). My bet is that they come fully onto the protagonist side, which would meen forging a peace with Rand (at the beginning of AMOL), and then consolidating, organizing, and mobalizing the west and south for TG. And if RJ wants them to be successful protagonists, they are going to have to regain/bolster our respect as a military force (all they have done lately is get whooped). Another loss--to the WT--would not help us like/respect them. If RJ takes them down the road of antagonist, there will be no treaty with Rand and major battles will ensue against his forces (as he is the nearest enemy and is intent on eliminating them as a threat anyway). The Seanchan have to know that Rand is amassing HUGE armies right next to them. Why would they commit a large force against the WT (opening another front) when Rand is looming?

 

Sorry this post was so long :oops: Please tell me if I am missing something.

[algspkr]

I think at that stage a Trolloc force out of the borderlands will reach Tar Valon (having been delayed and held back by Lan) and that at the same time the Black Ajah will be forced into the open by Pevara and the others who i think will capture, or face Alviarin.

Now that I think of it in KoD and (maybe) CoT they seemed to be setting up for a showdown anyway

[Luckers]

Pevin... they do not need a massive army, they can only carry 12,000.

 

1) The forces they do have seem to be in bad shape at the moment. It would take a lot of time to get ready for that major of an offensive, and surely Rand will have met with Tuon by then. I'm assuming that meeting will end successfully for the light--meaning some sort of armistice will be reached one way or another that precludes an attack on the WT.

 

They have had a lot of time. Indications are that they have been planning this since shortly after taking Altara. By now they are likely just getting all the raken and to'raken together, and then they'll be off.

 

2) Why would they attack the White Tower (which hasn't caused them any problems yet) when they have Ghealdin, Arad Domon, Illian, and Andor all close at hand? If they were to undertake another major offensive, wouldn't it make more strategic sense to go after one of them?

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not. First of all when it comes to Seanchan and Aes Sedai it may not be strategy that is behind the decision. Secondly from the point of view of the Seanchan the Aes Sedai represent perhaps the most serious threat in Randland. They believe that the Aes Sedai possess a powerful weapon, and that they have infiltrated the Seanchan command structure... they thought that Tuon had been kidnapped by them, and the fact that she wasn't will be irrelevent since they already have their plans in place.

 

An attack against the White Tower makes a lot of strategic sense.

 

3) From a writer's perspective, RJ needs to turn a corner with the Seanchan. Either they need to start looking better and come onto the protagonist side of the fence, or they need to get firmly placed on the antagonist side and get wiped out (

 

i disagree completely. If he were to 'nicen' the Seanchan up he would have commited a horrible crime against literature. That they need to be liked, yes... and he's more then done that with Tuon and Perrin's little friend. That they need to become harmless puppies? It would go against their entire culture to suddenly ignore the Aes Sedai.

 

Another loss--to the WT--would not help us like/respect them. If RJ takes them down the road of antagonist, there will be no treaty with Rand and major battles will ensue against his forces (as he is the nearest enemy and is intent on eliminating them as a threat anyway). The Seanchan have to know that Rand is amassing HUGE armies right next to them. Why would they commit a large force against the WT (opening another front) when Rand is looming?

 

12,000 is hardly a large force... large enough, perhaps, to commit a successful military airial strike against the Tower... but not to enact a war. And they wont lose to the Tower either... my suspicion is that they will be fought to a stand still, and then forced to work together against a Trolloc attack by Tuon when she arrives after signing the treaty with Rand... as for the rest... no good writer actually obeys such protagonist/antagonist rules. The characters must rule themselves based on their own understanding and beliefs... RJ understands that.

 

 

Sorry this post was so long Please tell me if I am missing something.

 

It wasn't too long... but what about the prophecies, dreams and visions of the Seanchan attack? What of the POV of the Seanchan startying to plan the assault, or gathering forces in KoD to commit it? What of Egwene seeing raken in CoT?

[algspkr]

3) From a writer's perspective, RJ needs to turn a corner with the Seanchan. Either they need to start looking better and come onto the protagonist side of the fence, or they need to get firmly placed on the antagonist side and get wiped out (

 

i disagree completely. If he were to 'nicen' the Seanchan up he would have commited a horrible crime against literature. That they need to be liked, yes... and he's more then done that with Tuon and Perrin's little friend. That they need to become harmless puppies? It would go against their entire culture to suddenly ignore the Aes Sedai.

I am working on a reread right now, and I believe that we may see the Seanchan change their views on the Aes Sedie.

 

First we have Eganen, who after meeting with Elayne and Nynaeve in Tanchico comes to the conclusion that maybe only criminals and channellers (female anyway) who refuse to swear need to be collared.

 

Then we have Tuon who according to herself has developed all of her "weapons" to their fullest, horse training, intellegence, martial arts, fighting with "suitable weapons", training domanae is able to channell, we see her viewing this as a positive in her talks with Mat, she says that it is like refusing to steal or murder, but we have not seen a POV from Tuon on her ability to channell. We may see her slowly change her opinion of channellers.

 

We also have Egwene's dream of a Seanchan with a sword saying that they can reach the heights together. I believe that this may be Egeanan, working with Egwene and through Mat to come to some compromise allowing the existance of Seanchan, and Aes Sedie.

[Guest Harso]

I was reading a discussion similar to this where they thought the seanchan woman was Tuon. I agree that it's Egeanin though. In the other thread they didn't mention the sword, though I thought of it.

[Luckers]

I believe the woman in Egwene's dream stands for the fact that Tuon will arrive in Tar Valon and lead the army there to attack the Trollocs besieging the city.

 

As for a change of heart, i don't disagree... but its not something we are going to see. Ideological stands such as the Seanchan one on slavery and leashing dont just disapear when its illuminated to be wrong and hyppocritical...thats the begining of the end. This will be one of the things implied at the end of the books, one of those things RJ has said he wont finish, but leave open ended. I believe that in the course of Tarmon Gaidon, Tuon and Egwene will be forced to work together and come to have grudging respect for one another, and the book ending with the implication of continued change in the seanchan... but no, i dont see it changing before the end of the book.

[Pevin]

**the formatting was a bit confusing on this, so I bolded my responses to your responses to my original post :? **

 

Pevin... they do not need a massive army' date=' they can only carry 12,000.

 

[b']Oh yeah, I guess they could put together 6,000-12,000 soldiers without much of a problem, but that shouldn't be enough to destroy the tower, and what else would their goal be? I don't see how they could think that would be a large enough force. I guess they could lucky with enough damane and surprise on their side, but I wouldn't want to count on that if I were the general.[/b]

 

1) The forces they do have seem to be in bad shape at the moment. It would take a lot of time to get ready for that major of an offensive, and surely Rand will have met with Tuon by then. I'm assuming that meeting will end successfully for the light--meaning some sort of armistice will be reached one way or another that precludes an attack on the WT.

 

They have had a lot of time. Indications are that they have been planning this since shortly after taking Altara. By now they are likely just getting all the raken and to'raken together, and then they'll be off.

 

I agree that they have been planning and preparing, but that got interrupted by Itulrade's rebellion and "that little mess in the north" (Mat's escape). The raken are all in transit back to Altara and Amadica as per Galgan's orders at the end of KOD.

 

2) Why would they attack the White Tower (which hasn't caused them any problems yet) when they have Ghealdin, Arad Domon, Illian, and Andor all close at hand? If they were to undertake another major offensive, wouldn't it make more strategic sense to go after one of them?

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not. First of all when it comes to Seanchan and Aes Sedai it may not be strategy that is behind the decision. Secondly from the point of view of the Seanchan the Aes Sedai represent perhaps the most serious threat in Randland. They believe that the Aes Sedai possess a powerful weapon, and that they have infiltrated the Seanchan command structure... they thought that Tuon had been kidnapped by them, and the fact that she wasn't will be irrelevent since they already have their plans in place.

 

An attack against the White Tower makes a lot of strategic sense.

 

But not now. At the end of KOD, the assault had not started yet (as all the raken were in use in other areas). And now Tuon has returned with a lot more knowledge about the WT--knowledge that should convince her the tower is not much of a threat. With Tuon controlling things, I think decisions will be made based more on thoughtful strategy than impulsive reactions to events not fully understood (the mysterious Aes Sedai weapon that has not been used again and Tuon's dissappearance). Tuon fully understands the three oathes, so she knows that if the Seanchan don't threaten the Aes Sedai, the Aes Sedai won't be able to use the power as a weapon against them. Granted that could be gotten around by first starting an assualt with their warders, but I think Tuon should know that the Aes Sedai are not much for starting open warfare.

 

 

3) From a writer's perspective, RJ needs to turn a corner with the Seanchan. Either they need to start looking better and come onto the protagonist side of the fence, or they need to get firmly placed on the antagonist side and get wiped out (

 

i disagree completely. If he were to 'nicen' the Seanchan up he would have commited a horrible crime against literature. That they need to be liked, yes... and he's more then done that with Tuon and Perrin's little friend. That they need to become harmless puppies? It would go against their entire culture to suddenly ignore the Aes Sedai.

 

I'm not suggesting RJ "nicen up" the Seanchan. I don't think I explained this idea very well. Let me try again...The Seanchan are a different culture from all of Randland. They are similar to the Aiel in how the people of Randland see them. This book series has a lot to do with how different people get along, and RJ is following/making use of some obvious real-world paradigms.

 

When humans meet other humans who are vastly different, there are some predictable outcomes--almost always fear of the unknown, mass misundertanding, hatred of the different(by many people), feelings of superiority for your own culture, and judgements of inferiority/evilness for the "other" people. Many times, those other people are viewed as not being human at all. All of these things are seen in how the people of Randland react to the Seanchan (and Aiel). And RJ made his readers have the same kinds of reactions towards the Seanchan (because of how great a writer he is). At first we hated and feard the Seanchan (at least I did). We didn't understand their culture and felt that they were "wrong" in many of the things they did (for example collaring and torturing women who could channel).

 

But ever sense we began to get POVs from the Seanchan, RJ has taken us down the slow road of change. Just like what happens in real life, the more time you spend with people different than you, the more you begin to understand them and their culture. You begin to lose the fear and judgements. And while you may not become best of friends, you can at least come to understand one another and not be so...antagonistic and misunderstanding towards each other.

 

This is what I believe RJ is doing with the Seanchan, and an attack against the WT--at this point with Tuon back in control--would be a major setback in the process. I don't think RJ will do that, but it is possible RJ will do it to cause more strife in the process (there are examples of that in the real world too).

 

By no means should RJ make the Seanchan appear "harmless." Quite the opposite needs to happen. The Seanchan are supposed to be such a mighty force, but they have not done a very good job of being the Ever Victorious Army yet. And that can't go on if RJ wants to give them any credibility as a major, powerful force. They need to start winning and looking militarily competent. Even a standstill against the WT would just be another non-victory for them. I don't think the Seanchan "character" can stand that.

 

Another loss--to the WT--would not help us like/respect them. If RJ takes them down the road of antagonist, there will be no treaty with Rand and major battles will ensue against his forces (as he is the nearest enemy and is intent on eliminating them as a threat anyway). The Seanchan have to know that Rand is amassing HUGE armies right next to them. Why would they commit a large force against the WT (opening another front) when Rand is looming?

 

12,000 is hardly a large force... large enough, perhaps, to commit a successful military airial strike against the Tower... but not to enact a war. And they wont lose to the Tower either... my suspicion is that they will be fought to a stand still, and then forced to work together against a Trolloc attack by Tuon when she arrives after signing the treaty with Rand... as for the rest... no good writer actually obeys such protagonist/antagonist rules. The characters must rule themselves based on their own understanding and beliefs... RJ understands that.

 

I don't know how you can say (or exactly what you mean) "no good writer actually obeys such protagonist/antagonist rules." They are needed and obvious parts of every story. Those roles can blend and change (especially in books that have switching POVs), but they are always present. Readers of a story usually like closure, and authors usually give it. Either the Seanchan are going to be "good guys" and help Rand's forces or "bad guys" and probably get wiped out by Rand's forces by the end of AMOL. There are other options, but I don't think they will happen with such a major player as the Seanchan.

 

 

Sorry this post was so long Please tell me if I am missing something.

 

It wasn't too long... but what about the prophecies, dreams and visions of the Seanchan attack? What of the POV of the Seanchan startying to plan the assault, or gathering forces in KoD to commit it? What of Egwene seeing raken in CoT?

 

Wasn't Egwene's dream just a possibility? I could be wrong on that, and I tried to look it up, but doesn't she say the dream means the Seanchan might attack? I can't remember any other prophecies, dreams, or visions of the Seanchan attacking the WT. Are there any others? Yes, I agree the Seanchan have been planning and preparing, but I don't think it will happen because of the return of Tuon combined with Itulrade's and Mat's assaults and Rand's looming presence. I think Rand and Tuon will meet before any assault could begin anyway.

 

Rand and Tuon will make some sort of peace--thus making the west and south one under the Seanchan. Then, somehow, the north and east will be as one (maybe the borderland army will have something to do with reuniting the WT, and that will somehow lead to the north and east being one). Then Tuon will liase with Egwene (who will be the Amrylin of the reunified tower) to make the two one, thus fulfilling the Finns answer as to how Rand can win TG and Egwene's dream of a Seanchan woman helping her.

 

If I am wrong and the Seanchan do have to attack the WT, then I think it will be some renegade faction that is upset over Tuon's peace with Rand and the WT. Or maybe a darkfriend faction (as renegade Seanchan are hard to believe).

[Luckers]

Oh yeah, I guess they could put together 6,000-12,000 soldiers without much of a problem, but that shouldn't be enough to destroy the tower, and what else would their goal be? I don't see how they could think that would be a large enough force. I guess they could lucky with enough damane and surprise on their side, but I wouldn't want to count on that if I were the general.

 

We have seen the effects a well placed small strike force can have. Rand took Illian and Andor with such, against prepared channelers (admittedly, one one in each case, but still). Perrin defeated an entire clan of the Aiel, Mat's shattered how many superior forces now? If a thousand or more damane and 11,000 soldiers are drop in Tar Valon, without warning, and in positions of strategic importance as worked out based on raken scouting and the like... I'd do it, where i in command of the seanchan.

 

I agree that they have been planning and preparing, but that got interrupted by Itulrade's rebellion and "that little mess in the north" (Mat's escape). The raken are all in transit back to Altara and Amadica as per Galgan's orders at the end of KOD.

 

Unencumbered the to'raken can fly a thousand miles in one flight. I don't see it taking them long to gather, which is why i suspect, given Galgan's orders, that the strike will begin just at the end of the prologue, during Egwene's dinner with Elaida.

 

And now Tuon has returned with a lot more knowledge about the WT--knowledge that should convince her the tower is not much of a threat. With Tuon controlling things, I think decisions will be made based more on thoughtful strategy than impulsive reactions to events not fully understood (the mysterious Aes Sedai weapon that has not been used again and Tuon's dissappearance). Tuon fully understands the three oathes, so she knows that if the Seanchan don't threaten the Aes Sedai, the Aes Sedai won't be able to use the power as a weapon against them. Granted that could be gotten around by first starting an assualt with their warders, but I think Tuon should know that the Aes Sedai are not much for starting open warfare.

 

For one, i dont think Tuon would have any reason to believe that the Aes sedai arn't a threat... indeed, given her thoughts in KoD it would seem she conciders them more of a threat then ever. She even conciders that Mat may be one of their agents, and seems sure that Thom is.

 

Secondly i dont think the planning for the assualt was at all uncareful or spontaneous. They started it because of those reasons, but they would have come up with a careful and concidered plan. They've been scouting Tar Valon for weeks, learning the disposition and placement of forces within and without. Indeed, they have every reason to over-estimate the Aes sedai, and will as such plan much more carefully.

 

Thirdly... about the gain... Tuon would neither far an open attack from the Tower, not concider leashing them in terms of the gain for the Seanchan. What she would fear is plots--something she seems to take very, very seriously. And the gain would be in leashing the one channeling force that has true political power. Something no seanchan could bare, nor disreguard given their history and culture.

 

This is what I believe RJ is doing with the Seanchan, and an attack against the WT--at this point with Tuon back in control--would be a major setback in the process. I don't think RJ will do that, but it is possible RJ will do it to cause more strife in the process (there are examples of that in the real world too).

 

I disagree. You see i dont think Tuon will be in charge of the assault, i think it left just as she was arriving back. Secondly i dont see Tuon interfereing with the assualt... the process of change, which i agree IS happening, has not gotten that far yet.

 

The assault will happen, and be fought to a stand still. At the same time Tuon will be meeting with Rand and reaching an alliance. Upon learning of the assault Rand will insist it will be stopped, and because of that process of change Tuon will agree to a ceasefire... nothing more. They will go to Tar Valon to see to it that the battle is stopped, but discover that the city is under assault from a Trolloc force with the Aes Sedai hard pressed because the two forces have not been working together. Tuon will lead her forces against the Trollocs fulfilling Egwenes vision of aid from a Seanchan woman whose face is blurry and wears a sword (i.e. tuons army). Rand will face Egwene's wrath for dealing with the seanchan and so on and so forth.

 

I don't know how you can say (or exactly what you mean) "no good writer actually obeys such protagonist/antagonist rules." They are needed and obvious parts of every story. Those roles can blend and change (especially in books that have switching POVs), but they are always present. Readers of a story usually like closure, and authors usually give it. Either the Seanchan are going to be "good guys" and help Rand's forces or "bad guys" and probably get wiped out by Rand's forces by the end of AMOL. There are other options, but I don't think they will happen with such a major player as the Seanchan.

 

A good writer lets a characters nature dictate the course of their plot. If you take a look at it, very few good writer obey the rule of good guy/bad guy. Its basic and boring. RJ has shown more talent then that. The Seanchan are gonna be good guys, sure... but they aint gonna be cuddly, nor get over their inclinations toward slavery and leashing, nor their hatred of channeling and the like.

 

It's simply too basic. People arn't either good guys or bad guys, and RJ has shown that he knows that.

 

Wasn't Egwene's dream just a possibility?

 

Egwene has been having too many dreams of the seanchan for it just to be a possibility. Also it is the only prophetic dream she has had in ages due to Halima... i imagine its important. Combined with the fact that we've seen planning and evidence of the attack already being underway... no, i think it pretty much has to happen now.

 

There is also the fact that RJ has held off dealing with the White Tower plot for many books now, and the only other change that he could have been waiting for is for the Seanchan to be in position to attack the white tower.

 

Also Egwenes ascendency and reunification of the Tower needs to be sped up. There simply isn't enough time. The only way RJ could pull this off is Egwene stepping in when Elaida falls apart and simply taking charge.

[Fensik]

I've beeing reading all the postings, all which touched on some very valid points and some intriguing possibilities. If I may play DO's advocate let me add something to this witches brew.

 

I believe there's a Seachan prophecy that declares the DR binding the crystal thrown to him.(dont quote me on that one) Did this happen when Turon sealed her marriage with Mat? Could it be the Prince of the Ravens is more than just a title and actually carries weight?

 

Turon stated she may make Tar Valon her capitol city. Does this imply she will actually call off a planned attack on TV?

 

Turon despises AS I cannot see that degree of loathing changing over night, at least not easily or with out dire consequences. As another post stated Seandar's entire culture is based on capturing marath'damane. Take away the things a person defines him/herself by and what do you have? Most will rather die than change and will fight to maintain the old ways no matter the consequence. I see Turon as one of these. But who am I?

 

 

"Trust me. Oh, Light, I'm pleading with a voice in my head! I must be mad."

[Luckers]

The Seanchan prophecy is mostly taken to be fake. The actual karetheon cycle states that Rand will 'bind the nine moons to serve him'. The issue of him kneeling to the Crystal Throne is pretty much moot in the fact that it seems to be a fabrication. this is supported by the fact that RJ has said that we will never see the plot move to Seanchan again.

[Kaznen]

The thing about him kneeling to the Crystal Throne also seems a bit specific for the prophecies. The Seanchan accuse the Prophecies in Randland to be in corrupted form and accuse the AS from taking out the CT part. If they were to edit the Prophecies they would have taken out the parts that talk about the AS serving him.

[algspkr]

The Seanchan prophecy is mostly taken to be fake. The actual karetheon cycle states that Rand will 'bind the nine moons to serve him'. The issue of him kneeling to the Crystal Throne is pretty much moot in the fact that it seems to be a fabrication. this is supported by the fact that RJ has said that we will never see the plot move to Seanchan again.

I have always thought that Rand might kneel to the Seanchan to make them happy, but rather than swearing to obey he would give the Aiel oath.

[Fensik]

I'll have to admit to some truths within your replies however I've always found it interesting that at no time within any of the readings does the entire prophecy appear. One is introduced to bits and pieces of the work, by various characters and they only mention aspects of the prophecy that have any bearing on their condition. This hold true for the Seachan, Aiel, Tinkers, Atha'an Miere, etc... It appears each faction has a "version" of the prophecy which is tailored for their specific life styles and beliefs. (a slight bow to RJ for borrowing the concept from christianity....brilliant and if he didnt ...brillianter) So who's to say which version of the prophecy is accurate? I believe they all are as the ultimate goal of each version if the defeat of the DO at TG. So I belive all aspects of each individual version of the prophecy must come to pass piece by piece. Even if you disagree you will have to admit so far all have come to pass one by one. We shall see if indeed the DR kneels before the CT.

 

"Burn me for a fool." he muttered. "I'll go"

[OnePower-Napalm]

*Warning: I may be wrong!*

 

With that said I will continue. First I would like to state that in no uncertain terms, the Seanchan will NOT attack the WT. Egwene's dream does not show the Tower falling, just teetering, a kind of upset that causes much frustration. The Seanchan practice of Collaring Aes Sedai has accomplished this quite well.

 

Second deals with the Seanchan that will help Egwene. In TGH Egwene leaves two Sul'dam collard, Rena and Seta, who later join Mat after being blackmailed. Egwene has said that all with the spark or who can learn, will be accepted into the Tower. Perhaps thier arrival will, in some way, teach the Seanchan a lesson(thier prescious(Sp?) Sul'dam can channel?!). Or they may simply help Egwene in some unforseen way. We won't know until the book comes out.

[Luckers]

Unfortunately its pretty much a given that the Seanchan will attack the Tower. Galgans actions from Suroths point of view, as well as Egwene's dreams--which despite what you say indicate nothing of the kind--as well as the fact that raken have been seen above Tar Valon more then shows this. Though i do agree that the Tower will not fall. It will be close until Egwene intervenes and takes charge, and then a Trolloc assualt will come, and tuon having signed an alliance with Rand will come along and force the seanchan to aid the Aes Sedai in fighting that.

[Pevin]

Well Luckers, I certainly understand your arguments, but I just don't think that the Seanchan are going to attack the White Tower. They might, but I don't see it happening.

 

A good writer lets a characters nature dictate the course of their plot. If you take a look at it, very few good writer obey the rule of good guy/bad guy. Its basic and boring. RJ has shown more talent then that. The Seanchan are gonna be good guys, sure... but they aint gonna be cuddly, nor get over their inclinations toward slavery and leashing, nor their hatred of channeling and the like.

 

It's simply too basic. People arn't either good guys or bad guys, and RJ has shown that he knows that.

 

I don't think you are understanding my point here. We seem to be confusing the terms. "Protagonist" does not equal "good," nor does "antagonist" equal "bad." When I say protagonist I mean a main character of the story. When I say antagonist, I mean a character that opposes or causes problems for a protagonist.

 

My point is that the Seanchan have been evolving from antagonists into protagonists. As a part of that, RJ is showing and explaining more of their culture, which eliminates some of the "bad guy" judgements most readers made from TGH. I agree that the Seanchan will not become cuddly or give up slavery any time soon, but that does not damn them into "bad guy" status. I have come to respect parts of their culture and think that they do many things better than Randland nations. That makes me see them as being partially good.

 

While you are correct in saying that well-developed characters are never fully good or fully bad (because that is boring to read and not very realistic), you are incorrect is saying that good authors don't use protagonists and antagonists. In a book series such as WOT, the lines between protagonist and antagonist can become blurred and can switch back and forth with the changing POVs, but they still exist!

[nescedral]

Something that bothers me about this whole discussion is that the belief about a Seanchan attack on the White Tower is paired with Tuon calling it off after a truce with Rand. Why would she be willing to make a truce with the Dragon Reborn, who she believes MUST kneel to the Crystal Throne prior to the last battle? She wouldn't ally with him in preparation for the Last Battle while she believes wholeheartedly that he must be under the control of her throne in order to win said battle. And the Seanchan don't exactly have a pretty view of male channelers, either.

 

Something dramatic needs to happen to force her into a truce. While Mat would certainly play some sort of key role in this truce, Tuon might be a little more willing after a failed attack on the White Tower. Just a possibility, but with the turmoil back in Seanchan and the Return loosing its grip, the Seanchan might make one last desperate attempt to strike at what they consider to be their greatest threat, the White Tower. And if they fail to destroy it? They might just be desperate enough to call a truce with Rand.

 

On a different note, I have to disagree with the idea that Egwene's Seanchan savior is Tuon. She had a sword. In what way could a sword be attributed to Tuon? "Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone." The sword part of the dream seems pretty important, if you ask me. As has already been pointed out here, Tuon isn't likely to cast off her culture so abruptly to help Egwene, an escaped damane, do anything. But, there could be a whole thread about just that one dream, so I'll leave it at that.