Mat's Plotline (Spoilers for the whole book)

[ThomGrinwell]

 I love Mat. He seems like he would be the hardest character to write because he blends so many subtle traits. Sanderson does write him a little off; he seems more jovial than cynical. But, he did capture the essence of Mat and I think he was aiming in the right direction. The next book will have much more Mat in it and I think Sanderson will have more time to "get into" the character. I can't wait to see it and I bet we will all say, "wow! I knew we should have just given Sanderson a little more faith!" There were no Mat POVs until the 3rd book, and do you recall how different he came off in other peoples POVs. He just seems complicated-- you either get him or you don't and I think Sanderson does. He just had some problems getting it out this book.

Oh, and I think the perfect Mat scene in the whole series, the one that can sums his character up perfectly, is when he meets Morgase and Rhavin. Where he happens to make up a back story for himself :P--though he does do it on the spot.  

[AuldGoldBeard]

Great series of posts by Jonn.  Fanboys like Vambram are the exact people he's talking about, and he's dead-on.  "BrS has the notes, so he must know better than you!!" is a specious non-argument that only serves as an admission that Vam has no logic or rationality behind his opinion.  At least people who say the Mt sections felt right to them are actually using their brains to analyze things.

[Auld Manriva]

Opinions are OK. Intimating your knowledge of a character is more up to scratch than the people who are telling the story? Please.

 

Make no mistake, it's more than just BS telling this tale now.

 

Personally, I have no quibble with Mat's characterization now. The scripting parts episode is as logical as any of several forks his road could have taken. As has been posted earlier, Mat's approached this kind of thing in the past. That he is now so freaked out after the Zombie Town is not "off" to me. It would be much simpler to hand out story lines than to verbally relate them all to each individual taking the chance of conflicting tales. If yer' gonna lie, you'd best be consistent....

 

It's all progression of the characters, Talmanes included. He's been leading on his own, away from Mat with only memory, which changes over time. Now Mat's in his face again and Talmanes, having grown himself, reacts more outwardly. He's now more comfortable around Mat, so he's more casual and vocal. So What?

[Scraps]

In regards to matrim, did anyone feel that that the humour in mat was deliberate? Talmanes and Thom were used as foil's to make themselves as well as Mat funny in their conversations? Did anyone notice the writing style was very abrubt and broken and there was rarely any description in the Mat chapters compared to that of rand and egwene? Not to mention there was a lack of descriptive paragraphs and littered with one sentence paragraphs instead.

 

Jordan wrote Mat like the other characters. It was just in the reaction to situations presented to Mat that made Mat a funny lad. Like an aes sedai trying to take control, or an army coming, or even winning a bunch of games. Here we see Mat just talking and making jokes.

 

Now, I don't recall mat really making jokes in the books, he just responds to circumstance and is amusing by his reactions.

 

Mat is more of a thinker then a talker I've realised and bs would need to adopt a similar writing style for rand and egwene and apply it to Mat (and even perrin). Mat was always a subtle lad.

 

By the way, I've only read the first Mat chapter and I may adjust my viewpoint in regards to the later chapters. But the first Mat chapter was damn awful.

[Jonn]

One of the things that bothered me in the previous post was that you were arguing against straw men.  I haven't seen a single person, anywhere (including Sanderson himself) argue that Sanderson did as good a job as Jordan would have done.  I haven't seen a single person say that Mat, Talmanes, etc. seemed like they were written exactly the same as they had been in previous books, though some (like me) are willing to explain the changes in Mat's personality at least to his changing circumstances and character development, rather than Sanderson screwing up the character.  If, however, your earlier posts were the only things I'd read in the thread, I'd expect the other posts to read something like this:

OMG!  Sanderson rulez!  He got Mat totally perfect, even better than Jordan would have!!!!eleventy-one!!1!1!!  No haterz!

 

I see, but Ted, isn't it an obvious and inevitable point that Sanderson will be compared to Robert Jordan?

I don't really expect him to be better or even as good as Jordan. Sorry.

I've read a few of his books and I sadly knew he wasn't there yet in his development as a writer.

 

I can say that I wasn't surprised about how well the rest of the book melded with the rest of the series. There are some trifles that seemed off to me, like figures of speech and over-narrating of characters in their dialogue...forgivable because due to Sanderson's level of ability and the constraints he is working under, there's only so much one can expect of an author.

 

There is no straw man as you put it. Observations about how well Sanderson compares to Jordan are a necessity in this case. People who think he did a good job are fine saying things to the effect that Sanderson's portrayal of Mat is consistent with Robert Jordan's. That it was refreshing and funnier the way Sanderson wrote it...

 

I disagree. I don't think Sanderson was any funnier or refreshing in style than Jordan, in fact I found his style with Mat tiresome and at times pointless.

 

People turn to the plot and defend Mat's sections by saying that Robert Jordan himself plotted such developments. That's the point. Though RJ would have been the one to plot such things out, the way the feel of the sections came off in style and characterization it felt alien to a lot of people who are used to Mat being portrayed in Robert Jordan's subtler more abrupt style.

Example: If Talmanes shows any emotion, or tick, it's abrupt and having to do with something, an event or comment in particular. His regular character is upright, reserved and seriously observant. Sanderson has played him as if he is winking and rolling his eyes the whole time, and being basically indistinct from the rest of Mat's coterie in attitude and manner. RJ was more sparing with outbursts of sudden character deviation. He used the abruptness of a change in character as an event in itself, EMPHASIZING a change of character or attitude. Sanderson didn't spend the time to set up any kind of development in character for Talmanes, it was just that all of a sudden he was different. RJ always had a turning point or made mention of a change in a character however major or minor they may be. And no one better dare that RJ never spent time developing peripheral characters.

 

Again, the differences in style between Jordan and Sanderson will be noted when they are notable.

Can you tell me honestly that Mat's sections in this book seemed like Jordan's characterization even in the prior book? They're different in comparison, so the comparison is relevant.

[Jonn]

In regards to matrim, did anyone feel that that the humour in mat was deliberate? Talmanes and Thom were used as foil's to make themselves as well as Mat funny in their conversations? Did anyone notice the writing style was very abrubt and broken and there was rarely any description in the Mat chapters compared to that of rand and egwene? Not to mention there was a lack of descriptive paragraphs and littered with one sentence paragraphs instead.

 

Jordan wrote Mat like the other characters. It was just in the reaction to situations presented to Mat that made Mat a funny lad. Like an aes sedai trying to take control, or an army coming, or even winning a bunch of games. Here we see Mat just talking and making jokes.

 

Now, I don't recall mat really making jokes in the books, he just responds to circumstance and is amusing by his reactions.

 

Mat is more of a thinker then a talker I've realised and bs would need to adopt a similar writing style for rand and egwene and apply it to Mat (and even perrin). Mat was always a subtle lad.

 

By the way, I've only read the first Mat chapter and I may adjust my viewpoint in regards to the later chapters. But the first Mat chapter was damn awful.

 

That is a good point scraps. Mat is a prankster, not a joker. There is a distinction. And I don't think he's pulled any pranks since book one that I can recall.

 

What disturbed me a lot was when he spoke to Thom about the letter again...Mat isn't really like that. He rather would leave someone else's thoughts to them, not make comment of it or be eager to draw any more out than need be. It just didn't seem right or true.

 

I mean, verbal jokes...I started to frown when I read that stuff, not laugh. Mat doesn't joke around these days. Too much stuff on his plate for that. I was confused by it.

[b9anders]

we haven't heard many of them, but we do see several accounts of him 'telling jokes' - usually not to great effect. The ones that stand out most right now is during his courtship of Tuon, but I'm sure there were others before.

[Vambram]

Great series of posts by Jonn.  Fanboys like Vambram are the exact people he's talking about, and he's dead-on.  "BrS has the notes, so he must know better than you!!" is a specious non-argument that only serves as an admission that Vam has no logic or rationality behind his opinion.  At least people who say the Mt sections felt right to them are actually using their brains to analyze things.

 

This is one of the most unintelligent... or misinformed opinions by a dragonmount.com poster on this thread, in my opinion.

[Vambram]

Opinions are OK. Intimating your knowledge of a character is more up to scratch than the people who are telling the story? Please.

 

Make no mistake, it's more than just BS telling this tale now.

 

Personally, I have no quibble with Mat's characterization now. The scripting parts episode is as logical as any of several forks his road could have taken. As has been posted earlier, Mat's approached this kind of thing in the past. That he is now so freaked out after the Zombie Town is not "off" to me.

 

It would be much simpler to hand out story lines than to verbally relate them all to each individual taking the chance of conflicting tales. If yer' gonna lie, you'd best be consistent....

 

It's all progression of the characters, Talmanes included. He's been leading on his own, away from Mat with only memory, which changes over time. Now Mat's in his face again and Talmanes, having grown himself, reacts more outwardly. He's now more comfortable around Mat, so he's more casual and vocal. So What?

 

+1 QFT

[Vambram]

 

 

That is a good point scraps. Mat is a prankster, not a joker. There is a distinction. And I don't think he's pulled any pranks since book one that I can recall.

 

 

What disturbed me a lot was when he spoke to Thom about the letter again...Mat isn't really like that. He rather would leave someone else's thoughts to them, not make comment of it or be eager to draw any more out than need be. It just didn't seem right or true.

 

I mean, verbal jokes...I started to frown when I read that stuff, not laugh. Mat doesn't joke around these days. Too much stuff on his plate for that. I was confused by it.

 

So, you believe you have a better understanding of Mat Cauthon and how his character has progressed than do Harriet McDougal and the Team Jordan Researchers? Apparently, you do believe that.

 

On the other hand, I started reading the WOT series in 1991, and have done a complete re-read of the series every time before reading a new book in WOT. To pass off disagreements with you by myself or others as being merely a "fanboy" is an insult that you attempt to use to try to make yourself and your opinions better and more authoritative than those whom disagree with you.

Previously, in this thread, I have already stated that I found Mat's chapters in TGS to be very good, and the parts that were supposed to be funny are indeed really laugh out loud scenes and dialogue of humor for me, and the majority of those whom have read TGS in my opinion.

[Vambram]

we haven't heard many of them, but we do see several accounts of him 'telling jokes' - usually not to great effect. The ones that stand out most right now is during his courtship of Tuon, but I'm sure there were others before.

 

Here is something else that I suggest that we all think about concerning how well we believe we know the character and personality of Mat Cauthon. Towards the end of KoD, Tuon asked her Deathwatch Guard general for his opinion of Mat. The general replied that Mat is like an onion, a man of many layers. After he said that, Tuon thought to herself that Mat makes an onion look like an apple because of the multitude of layers that Tuon has seen or observed in Mat Cauthon's character and personality.

[Ted M]

I see, but Ted, isn't it an obvious and inevitable point that Sanderson will be compared to Robert Jordan?

I don't really expect him to be better or even as good as Jordan. Sorry.

I've read a few of his books and I sadly knew he wasn't there yet in his development as a writer.

 

Why are you apologizing about that.  Did you not notice that the following was in the very section of post that you quoted?

 

I haven't seen a single person, anywhere (including Sanderson himself) argue that Sanderson did as good a job as Jordan would have done.  I haven't seen a single person say that Mat, Talmanes, etc. seemed like they were written exactly the same as they had been in previous book...

 

 

I'll go a step further, and add that while part of it has to do with Jordan being a better writer, even if Sanderson were Jordan's equal as a writer, it still wouldn't be quite as good as Jordan would have written, as attempting to precisely emulate another author's style is an extremely difficult task (and one which Sanderson chose not to do, for that reason).

 

I can say that I wasn't surprised about how well the rest of the book melded with the rest of the series. There are some trifles that seemed off to me, like figures of speech and over-narrating of characters in their dialogue...forgivable because due to Sanderson's level of ability and the constraints he is working under, there's only so much one can expect of an author.

 

There is no straw man as you put it. Observations about how well Sanderson compares to Jordan are a necessity in this case. People who think he did a good job are fine saying things to the effect that Sanderson's portrayal of Mat is consistent with Robert Jordan's. That it was refreshing and funnier the way Sanderson wrote it...

 

I disagree. I don't think Sanderson was any funnier or refreshing in style than Jordan, in fact I found his style with Mat tiresome and at times pointless.

 

People turn to the plot and defend Mat's sections by saying that Robert Jordan himself plotted such developments. That's the point. Though RJ would have been the one to plot such things out, the way the feel of the sections came off in style and characterization it felt alien to a lot of people who are used to Mat being portrayed in Robert Jordan's subtler more abrupt style.

Example: If Talmanes shows any emotion, or tick, it's abrupt and having to do with something, an event or comment in particular. His regular character is upright, reserved and seriously observant. Sanderson has played him as if he is winking and rolling his eyes the whole time, and being basically indistinct from the rest of Mat's coterie in attitude and manner. RJ was more sparing with outbursts of sudden character deviation. He used the abruptness of a change in character as an event in itself, EMPHASIZING a change of character or attitude. Sanderson didn't spend the time to set up any kind of development in character for Talmanes, it was just that all of a sudden he was different. RJ always had a turning point or made mention of a change in a character however major or minor they may be. And no one better dare that RJ never spent time developing peripheral characters.

 

Again, the differences in style between Jordan and Sanderson will be noted when they are notable.

Can you tell me honestly that Mat's sections in this book seemed like Jordan's characterization even in the prior book? They're different in comparison, so the comparison is relevant.

 

I've never tried to tell you anything of the kind.  If you'll kindly reread the post you're responding to and any of my posts in this thread, you'll not that I've repeatedly conceded precisely that point. 

 

What I have said is that while I found Mat and the Band to be somewhat off, I wasn't terribly bothered by it, and I was able to rationalize to myself the changes in Mat's behavior from an in-world perspective.  Sure, the explanation may well be that Sanderson just didn't get Mat, but if I can at least come up with a semi-plausible explanation for the changes in his behavior, I can live with it and not let it detract from my enjoyment of the ending of a series I've been reading for very nearly two decades.  I understand and accept that you can't live with it. 

 

Let's take a quick look at something you said earlier in the thread though:

I gotta say there is a note of desperate denial in a lot of people's tones, defending against pretty valid criticism.

It was quite clearly different from what we've come to expect from the quality of the series and much more different than just most of the rest of the Gathering Storm even. It stood out...obviously, and not just to rabid Mat fans. I don't count myself among them, but this offering of the character was unsatisfactory for me to the point that it was distracting.

 

I honestly enjoyed the majority of the rest of the book. Mat's portion pretty much ruined it for me. It's sad. Even sadder are the many who are holding onto this portrayal as anything approaching acceptable.

 

I'm quite certain years from now many will look back on this gaffe as one of the worst moments in the series.

 

As someone who found Mat's portrayal "acceptable" (not brilliant, and not as good as Jordan would have done, but acceptable), certainly you can see where I might be bothered by being called sad, no?  I would hope you could see where I could be irritated by the fact that you keep ignoring large sections of my posts where I note that Sanderson didn't do as good a job as Jordan would have done, and where I say Mat was different from the way he had been in previous books.  Responding to my posts as though I were some delusional "fanboy" saying that Sanderson did a better job than Jordan did and as though I thought that Mat was written exactly the same as he had been in previous books only continues to irritate me and reinforce the impression that you're arguing against your own preconceived notions of what you think people are going to say, rather than what people are actually saying.

[SimpleJo]

The only problem I had with Mat's portrayal is when the term "Sadaired" was used.  Otherwise his portrayal was pretty spot on.  Basically he is starting to grow up beyond the careless young man he has been until he fell in love with Tuon.  What is so funny is that the "Joker" is on the receiving end of the biggest joke in the series so far,(being married, and to a noble no less) and he is learning how to deal with it.  And because of this growth and learning to accept his destiny his humor along with his worldview is getting beyond the slapstick level.  Witness how he views Aldura and her craft compared to when he was first introduced to fireworks.

[Jonn]

 

As someone who found Mat's portrayal "acceptable" (not brilliant, and not as good as Jordan would have done, but acceptable), certainly you can see where I might be bothered by being called sad, no?  I would hope you could see where I could be irritated by the fact that you keep ignoring large sections of my posts where I note that Sanderson didn't do as good a job as Jordan would have done, and where I say Mat was different from the way he had been in previous books.  Responding to my posts as though I were some delusional "fanboy" saying that Sanderson did a better job than Jordan did and as though I thought that Mat was written exactly the same as he had been in previous books only continues to irritate me and reinforce the impression that you're arguing against your own preconceived notions of what you think people are going to say, rather than what people are actually saying.

 

I honestly think you're taking a lot of things I am posting a bit too personally, as if I must be directing my comments specifically or generally towards you.

 

I must say, not trying to be mean that this is a delusion on your part. You have the wrong idea. Don't take it so personally.

 

If you find it acceptable (Mat's portrayal) and have your reasons made clear, that's well. You don't need my approval anyway do you? I find that your reason's for finding Mat's characterization as passable, well- passable. According to your standard, you were fine with it.

 

My comments about people being delusional are really comments about persons getting angry and overly defensive about ANY criticism directed towards the way Mat Cauthon the character was portrayed in this book.

 

I find that being so defensive about it betrays doubt in some people about how they truly did perceive Mat's depiction.

 

Do you deny that the criticisms are valid then? Do you deny that people may have a right or reason to protest the way Mat was portrayed? I've not heard much but praise for the book outside of Mat's sections. A few picky points about dialogue and such, but not much else to complain about besides Mat.

 

I don't think it can be denied that Mat's portion is by far the most controversial portion of the book, and raises serious questions about Sanderson's judgment of this character in particular.

 

Personally I am of the thought that Mat's portrayal is part of a bigger problem and this is how to reconcile material for three books instead of two or even one.

 

I had serious misgivings about the format of these final books and the problems Sanderson faced in how the format came to be decided upon. The lack of balance and measure in Mat's section speaks to me of this.

[Vambram]

Jonn, what you are failing to understand is that in your criticism you have come across with an attitude that says that you believe that only you yourself can be right, that your analysis of Mat's character and just has to be correct. The attitude that you put forth practically demands that everyone agrees with you, and that if we do not, then we are being defensive or dilusional. I think that is a good summary of the attitude and belief that you have implied and put forth on this thread.

 

Personally I am of the thought that Mat's portrayal is part of a bigger problem and this is how to reconcile material for three books instead of two or even one.

 

I had serious misgivings about the format of these final books and the problems Sanderson faced in how the format came to be decided upon. The lack of balance and measure in Mat's section speaks to me of this.

 

Even still, after the huge success of The Gathering Storm and after about 95% of the reviews and critiques of this book have been overwhelmingly positive, you still believe that you were right and that Harriet and Sanderson made a huge mistake in splitting one massive  2000 page plus book into one final trilogy to complete the WOT saga. In my opinion, I believe that you are the one whom is being defensive, and stubbornly refusing to admit that you might be possibly wrong, despite all of the evidence and opinions and critiques that disagree with you.

[mossman87]

Obviously Mat didn't seem like Mat, we all knew there'd be things like that considering we have a different author now.

 

I just don't see what multiple posts saying the same things over and over really accomplishes in the end.  We get how you feel, but what do you want us to do about it?  Go complain on BS's site.

 

Edit:  There's this game called Aion that just came out about 2 months ago, and it's pretty awful.  Yet since release months ago literally hundreds of people flood a fansite to the game and tell everyone how bad the game is that they play, it's not even an official site, humans are weird.

[Scraps]

The only problem I had with Mat's portrayal is when the term "Sadaired" was used.  Otherwise his portrayal was pretty spot on.  Basically he is starting to grow up beyond the careless young man he has been until he fell in love with Tuon.  What is so funny is that the "Joker" is on the receiving end of the biggest joke in the series so far,(being married, and to a noble no less) and he is learning how to deal with it.  And because of this growth and learning to accept his destiny his humor along with his worldview is getting beyond the slapstick level.  Witness how he views Aldura and her craft compared to when he was first introduced to fireworks.

 

The problem I have with that is that it all seems like a reversal of growth. Matrim was alot of things in his youth, but in knife of dreams, he had come to a level with thom - he has grown to a man already. He also has significant responsibilities. Now, he acts like a two-dimensional teenager again. He acts like an idiot with aludra. Normal, grown Mat does not do that.

 

What I mean by that is that normally in a Mat POV (and i mean recent ones, he was an idiot in the earlier books), Mat's logic makes sense when he makes suggestions or remarks and the women react badly and it seems illogical that they do so. What Mat says or does makes sense when we are in his perspective (and the women will usually go 'fool blinded idiot' or something and we'll just end up scratching our heads because it portrays that we don't understand women despite making sense). In the conversation between him and aludra - Mat is an idiot. What he says doesn't make sense. At all.

 

Mat is also a womaniser. Although he has a wife he still has the ability to charm women. Not only that, he has the experience of thousands of memories. And he stumbles over words and insults aludra? Please. He's a grown man who's seduced or had women side with him with honeyed words. He's not the type to make mistakes wife or not. And he's a general, would he really try to diss someone making valuable weapons?

 

Back to Talmanes. god. what rubbish.

 

No offense to BS, but I think him and jordan have had different experiences of 'friendship'. Jordan's understood comradeship during the vietnam war and there is a deep understanding of the bond of that friendship which seems prevalent between thom and mat, and mat and talmanes. Here, we're presented with a teenager's concept of friendship - or one which is as shallow as the jokes that were made..

 

you don't need to make jokes to be funny. And the bond between talmanes and mat has been raped badly.

 

To be honest, I was thinking that alot of the time the reason why mat was funny in the past books is because of the thoughts he made and not of the stuff he usually said. or the stuff he did.

 

Though, despite me dissing bs. I do compliment the way he handled the zombie-village scene. Unfortunately, there was not much mention of mat fighting with the staff. For half the fight, I was wondering if he was fighting with his staff or with his daggers. Only about halfway through did it mention the staff - and even then, just so casually. Nothing about the staff whirling between his fingers and slicing the bladed edge through their throat. it's just, 'he fought with the ash(whatever the hell it's called)'.

 

I mean? Was bs lazy when he wrote the fight scene? Part of the excitement with mat was the in depth description with how he fought with his staff or his daggers. In 'The Shadow Rising' and 'Knife of dreams' (examples i remember, it is no doubtedly in the other books, it's just i remember these scenes well), the description used with the fighting with his staff and the blood spilled and wounds incurred in the book was intense. Of course, wounds were quite unrealistic in this situation unless bite marks or bruises or scratch marks would count.

 

Next, I was thinking about the disguises. His plan wasn't too bad and it is reasonable to assume that he'd be shaky and would want to have disguises entering a village. But the scwabbling about the picky details? The deliberate attempts at jokes when a particular character (Mandevwin?) would try and change details? Was it me or did it just sound patronizing? These are Mat's men, not bloody idiots and not joke foils. A leader of Mat's respect in the Band of the Red Hand wouldnt have some idiot footman make stupid jokes. Again, BS is portraying the characters like teenagers and not normal men.

 

And what the bloody hell was with all the 'let's drink and gamble talmanes'? Bloody hell, if he's so keen, mat would just go and not talk about it.

 

and the dice game in Hinderstrap????? Mat doesn't know where his luck will go. It just suddenly seemed like Mat knew he would lose every game before his gambling in the hinderstrap inn with the hinderstrap lads. COME ON!!!! Mat has never expressly understood where his luck would take him or how. Mat would more start dicing, and then start wondering why he kept losing and then wondering where his luck would lead him. Not the other way around. You can argue that he was really winning the wagon full of food and that would be the only argument in itself. But Mat still does think about the dice and how weird his luck is.

 

So, Mat does not determine his luck. Luck determines Mat's direction.

 

And arn't there still dice rolling in his head from the previous book? What happened to those?

 

BS focused too much on trying to make him funny and be a comic relief. Mat is an intense character in itself, and I just hope his importance isn't played down as being funny, and that funny moments compliment his character and isn't his character solely as if portrayed in these chapters. Unfortunately in this book, BS got it wrong.

 

blah. Well, fortunately nothing too important was covered in this book in terms of Mat. I hope there are improvements to Mat in the next book. Even if BS has to rewrite half the next book and release it at a later date. I'm glad he's rereading Knife of Dreams atm as that has the strongest portrayal of Mat.

 

And it just pisses me off that there are some stubborn people on this forum that think that BS's portrayal of Mat is spot on. Far from it. I commend him for every character in this book but for Mat and the characters talking to him. Stop trying to be funny. Write Mat like the other characters but add the bloody's and blood and ashes, and the appropriate 'thought' reaction to circumstances. Be subtle. Make Mat's POV logical and the women illogical. Mat rarely makes mistakes speechwise or if he does, he somehow ends up gaining. Mat is a grown man, not a teenager. There's lots of things that need improvement.

 

 

On a side note, Perrin also suffers a little, but not quite as much as Mat. Seeing as both characters will likely be major figures in the next book, I hope that the previous book was just laziness for the side characters and a major focus on the main characters (rand, egwene) in the book.

 

Blah, I've ranted. But I stand by what I say.

[jemron]

Good post.  I disagree with almost all of it, but it was a well-stated, honest statement of your opinion.

 

I write this because my knee-jerk reaction was to say something mean about your criticism of Brandon Sanderson, but then I remembered that you are totally free to have state your opinions on this board, and I respect that.  Also, I'm such a fanboy, that I know I'm not willing to be objective about the WoT, so you're opinion is probably much more valid/fair than mine.  ;D

[saidarisnowtainted]

the discussion needs to promptly redirect itself to Mat's PLOTLINE or it should be renamed:

 

"Matrim Cauthon: A Literary Criticism of Brandon Sanderson's Writing" with the sub-title "A Study of the Pride and Prickliness of WOT Posters"

 

 

[jemron]

the discussion needs to promptly redirect itself to Mat's PLOTLINE or it should be renamed:

 

"Matrim Cauthon: A Literary Criticism of Brandon Sanderson's Writing" with the sub-title "A Study of the Pride and Prickliness of WOT Posters"

 

 

 

Sorry buddy, but I tried that twice before in this same thread with no luck.  The answer you'll get, which I agree with now, is that there was no plotline for Mat in TGS (other than what has already been discussed... to death.)

[aunt_pol]

 

 

Yeah I tried that a while back too, this has gotten really boring.

Mat's different.

Some of you mind.

Some of you don't.

 

Can we please talk about what Mat's gonna do next? Based on where he's at now, the end of TGS?

[Calderis]

 

 

Yeah I tried that a while back too, this has gotten really boring.

Mat's different.

Some of you mind.

Some of you don't.

 

Can we please talk about what Mat's gonna do next? Based on where he's at now, the end of TGS?

 

Well as has been said before.... What did you think Mat was gonna do after KoD? Does Verin's note change that? If so, discuss, if not... what's there to discuss?

[AuldGoldBeard]

This is one of the most unintelligent... or misinformed opinions by a dragonmount.com poster on this thread, in my opinion.

 

What's great about your posts is the obvious thought and logical reasoning that goes into them.  Whenever someone disagrees with you, you have a well-reasoned argument to counter them, persuasive while polite.

 

 

In the interest of vanquishing hypocrisy...

Vambram, what you are failing to understand is that in your criticism you have come across with an attitude that says that you believe that only BrS himself can be right, that his analysis of Mat's character and just has to be correct. The attitude that you put forth practically demands that everyone agrees with BrS's portrayal, and that if we do not, then we are being unintelligent or misinformed. I think that is a good summary of the attitude and belief that you have implied and put forth on this thread.

 

 

It is good to see that Ted and others can put forth an intelligent defense of Mat's portrayal.  They raise some good points I hadn't thought of.

[Razor]

I think Mat will try to asit out the time and not open Verin's note.  However, Thom and time will pressure him to act on the Moraine rescue and he will reluctantly open the Verin note to see 1) the location of the horn. 2) some other important things Verin knows as a black ajah turncoat that will help mat and the light.  I wonder if she will give him a partial list of black sisters? Probably not as Aes sedai like to keep Aes sedai matters to Aes sedai.

[Vambram]

This is one of the most unintelligent... or misinformed opinions by a dragonmount.com poster on this thread, in my opinion.

 

What's great about your posts is the obvious thought and logical reasoning that goes into them.  Whenever someone disagrees with you, you have a well-reasoned argument to counter them, persuasive while polite.

 

 

In the interest of vanquishing hypocrisy...

Vambram, what you are failing to understand is that in your criticism you have come across with an attitude that says that you believe that only BrS himself can be right, that his analysis of Mat's character and just has to be correct. The attitude that you put forth practically demands that everyone agrees with BrS's portrayal, and that if we do not, then we are being unintelligent or misinformed. I think that is a good summary of the attitude and belief that you have implied and put forth on this thread.

 

 

It is good to see that Ted and others can put forth an intelligent defense of Mat's portrayal.  They raise some good points I hadn't thought of.

 

Again, you have shown how misinformed hat you are. You want to put words in my mouth, and you have willfully chosen to ignore the input that the two main researchers of Team Jordan, as well as the input that the editor of all of the WOT books, Harriet McDougal, has also had in TGS. Those whom are criticising Sanderson's writing and his portrayal of the characters are apparently forgeting two very crucial facts, which I just pointed out again, as I have previously.